America... Spying on Americans

Ticomaya wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Note that many of the people spied on in the article apparently had no verifiable ties to terrorism, but merely politically opposed Bush. And you think that is okay?

Cycloptichorn

No I would not think that is okay. Please point out what you are talking about.

I don't think I saw your response to this, Cyclops. Where did you see that in the article?

0 Replies

squinney wrote:

Or, say.... Christians? You know, the ones that blow up Planned Parenthoods.

Ya think they are monitoring them?

Do you think we should?

0 Replies

Stevepax wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
Because people are idiots squinney. Especially the young men and women who go to those rallies and get all hyped up on the anti-whatever garbage that is being spewed. Where do you think the suicide bombers in the middle east come from? Do you believe Americans are somehow not capable of equal atrocoties?

I think the stupid soldiers fighting in Iraq are idiots. They eat up this tripe and get themselves killed for the BushCo money machine. Morons!

You speak volumes about yourself when you spout this tripe.

0 Replies

MgC
Did we hurt the little mans feelings'

Oh! I sorrrry

0 Replies

au1929 wrote:

MgC
Did we hurt the little mans feelings'

Oh! I sorrrry

You can't tell by the whining??

0 Replies

au1929 wrote:

MgC
Did we hurt the little mans feelings'

Oh! I sorrrry

Hurt my feelings? Actually, I am honored that you guys think so highly of me that you would take the time to waste an entire page of this thread dedicated to discussing me. Makes me think that you are afraid of what I said, or can no longer support your side of the conversation so, as always, you resort to persoanl attacks. It seems to be the SOP with you guys.

0 Replies

McG, Nope, just shaking our heads at the ...

0 Replies

Tico
Stevepax wrote

Quote:

I think the stupid soldiers fighting in Iraq are idiots. They eat up this tripe and get themselves killed for the BushCo money machine. Morons!

I agree that is way out of line and an insult to every American member of the armed forces.

0 Replies

Ticomaya wrote:

Hopefully most Americans are of the mind that the government better be doing everything in its power to fight terrorism. That seemed to be the consensus based on the results of the 2004 election.

That's certainly one interpretation of those results.

Quote:

So if the government has reason to believe it needs to monitor a particular phone call for national security reasons, it would be idiocy to have to wait to get a FISA warrant in order to monitor that particular call.

They have to have probable cause. There is a court set up that does nothing else but issue warrants for them. It's highly unlikely that we are talking about a single call or email -- since in order for them to know that a call was going to be made before it was actually made they would have to be psychic or at least posess extraordinary intelligence already -- but more likely that we are talking about suveillance of americans. For this, they need a warrant.

Quote:

You certainly get the sense that it will take another 9/11 to get some leftists to come around to that line of thinking ... but then again, that might be too much to expect of some.

I don't know if I am a leftist. In fact, I believe that wanting to keep the government in check, to prevent them from spying on Americans, is a fundamentally conservative principle.

Quote:

And now that the NYT has taken away one tool in that fight, that day might come sooner than later.

How has the NYT taken it away?

0 Replies

I think it was out of line to insult everyone that protests and voices dissent.

0 Replies

McGentrix wrote:

Because people are idiots squinney. Especially the young men and women who go to those rallies and get all hyped up on the anti-whatever garbage that is being spewed. Where do you think the suicide bombers in the middle east come from? Do you believe Americans are somehow not capable of equal atrocoties?

AU1929!

This is what I am reacting to! If they want civility, they can watch their mouths. If they wanna do "no holds barred", I can do that too!

0 Replies

Ticomaya wrote:

Yes, I understand you are aghast. And I'm trying to figure out why you are aghast since it is perfectly legal to intercept the communication if a terrorist in Afghanistan calls a terrorist in the US, but you are aghast if the communication from a terrorist in the US to a terrorist in Afghanistan is intercepted.

I am aghast that an executive order appears to have allowed the NSA to spy on Americans without a warrant. That appears to violate the 4th amendment.

Tico wrote:

Because if an American citizen is talking to a terrorist in some other country, I think the government ought to be able to listen in on the conversation, and not have to wait for a FISA warrant that would not allow it to monitor the call.

And I guess terrorists have a special area code that designates them as such? Or maybe they are listed in the yellow pages under T.

Quote:

Now, the terrorists know the government has dropped its procedure of NOT monitoring domestic calls, which terrorists might have been relying on to their detriment. Now they will change tactics, and this will make it more difficult to discover plots to take down the Brooklyn Bridge and other terrorist attacks.

Do you honestly think they didn't know before? Do you think that people from here were calling the terrorist hotline and recommending targets to them over the telephone? Only Americans were naive enough to think that the US government wouldn't listen in on our phone conversations.

0 Replies

Which is exactly what I was getting at several pages back.

squinney wrote:

Anyone here really believe that telephones or e-mails are widely used for terroists to communicate? I've known for a long time that such is not secure.

How many here would have felt comfortable and safe e-mailing or calling a "friend" to discuss blowing up a building? Would you have felt secure in doing so last week? Has it changed due to the NYT article?

I'm not buying the reasons given for the secret order.

0 Replies

Stevepax wrote:

I think it was out of line to insult everyone that protests and voices dissent.

Me, too. Who did that?

0 Replies

McG did. About halfway down page 12.

Keep up, Lash. Keep up. Very Happy

0 Replies

squinney wrote:

Which is exactly what I was getting at several pages back.

squinney wrote:
Anyone here really believe that telephones or e-mails are widely used for terroists to communicate? I've known for a long time that such is not secure.

How many here would have felt comfortable and safe e-mailing or calling a "friend" to discuss blowing up a building? Would you have felt secure in doing so last week? Has it changed due to the NYT article?

I'm not buying the reasons given for the secret order.

Yeah, I saw your point after I posted that. Somehow I managed to get several pages behind just by fixing the kids lunch.

I know people who stopped speaking arabic on the telephone or in public after 9/11. At the time I thought they were overreacting.

0 Replies

I could see Stevepax insulting the service personnel of my country, but I didn't find any anti-dissent comment by McG.

Maybe someone could point it out.

0 Replies

Stevepax wrote:

I think it was out of line to insult everyone that protests and voices dissent.

Well, to be fair, calling all soldiers stupid wasn't much better.

0 Replies

http://img438.imageshack.us/img438/3382/denial1oz.gif

Come on, McG. Is there ANYTHING this guy can do that will be met with anything less than complete support by you? This is something that is ok to be critical of, by anyones standards.

Bush took an oath to defend the Constitution.
Allowing illegal, warrantless wiretaps is clearly unconstitutional.
The man is engaging in activities that undermine the spirit of this nation. Not cool.

Someone needs to take you to a quiet corner, gently pat you on the back and say "It's ok... not everything he does has to be right... it's possible to support a person yet disagree with them on ocassion... you'll be ok..."
Seriously man, this is NOT a good thing. If you can't realize that on any level, there's no point in trying to get you to understand.

0 Replies

Lash wrote:

I could see Stevepax insulting the service personnel of my country, but I didn't find any anti-dissent comment by McG.

Maybe someone could point it out.

McG implied that war dissenters are brainwashed and that terrorists are bred at anti-war rallies, despite the fact that I have never heard of an anti-war protester blowing himself up in a crowded mall, or comitting any similar kind of attack.

0 Replies

America... Spying on Americans

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know