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Islamic Propensity For Terrorism (Parisian Riots)

 
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Nov, 2005 10:54 am
Yet another misconception is that all these rioters are Muslims. They are mostly of North African origin (Moroccans and Algerians) and quite a large of them do not identify with Islam at all. There is a large percentage of atheists and a handful of Christians in this group.

When will it end, rodeman? After the next evolutionary advance in the species Homo sapiens sapiens.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Nov, 2005 12:10 pm
rodeman wrote:
By the way, my god is better than your god...........and I'm an atheist............?


Brilliant, R, brilliant . . . you can't be challenged . . . i am in awe of you . . .
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rodeman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Nov, 2005 12:58 pm
I'm not worthy Setanta.......................lol
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Nov, 2005 02:23 pm
Setanta wrote:
Walter, i started a thread about this a few days ago, with several links to English-language sources on the rioting. However, i guess my thread lacked the cachet of anti-Muslim racism, so it turned out to be a total yawner.


Oh? What is the url, Set, people knowing what they are talking about on this matter is very attractive.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Nov, 2005 02:26 pm
Setanta wrote:
The French have a long and strong tradition of secular education. The radical left in the Revolution shot themselves in the foot big time with the Civil Constitution of the Clergy. One of their efforts was to remove primary education from the hands of the priests and to assure wide-spread literacy. Thanks to the uproar, which helped to fuel counterrevolutionary insurgency in la Vendee, and thanks to the Austro-Prussian atttempt to invade France, the Committee for Public Safety was never able effectively to implement their program. The Directory which succeeded them was less than enthused with the program and quietly allowed "non-juring" priests (those who would not swear allegiance to the state as opposed to the Pope) to move back into their parishes. Napoleon settled with the Pope in 1802 with his Concordat (which he shoved down the Pope's throat--it would be nine more years before they came to a lasting settlement), basically on the principles of the Civil Constitution of the Clergy, but with some face-saving provisions for the Pope. Although very conservative socially, Napoleon was extremely realistic about social and economic mechanisms which worked effectively to support the empire. He understood the value of wide-spread literacy, and he did not intend to have primary education be a means for religious indoctrination, when his intent was imperial indoctrination. From that eventually grew an independent republican notion of the "civilizing mission" of educators to remove all vestiges of clerical inculturation. Maurice Pagnol wrote an interestin novel, La Gloire de mon pere (My Father's Glory), which celebrated the resolutely secular tradition of public educators in France. Despite the obvious sources of Muslim resistance to secularism, the long-term consequences of public education are likely to be an effective negation of fundamentalist attitudes among youths of Muslim heritage who are born, raised and educated in France--provided anything like economic parity can be acheived and maintained. When young men and women feel they have nothing to lose, rioting probably looks like fun, and is certainly preferrable to hanging out with no money and nothing to do. Once the "common man" acquires a stake in the economic order (such as a good, steady income or some property ownership), revolutions end of their own accord.


Yes, I was wondering if there was something about having such a strong religious establishment that had made the French more fierce about their secularism (as the US is, or was, also...and which is also far more religious than my country) than we are here, and which makes it hard for us to really understand.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Nov, 2005 02:29 pm
This is the thread that i started, Miss Wabbit: BRENT PARIS?, although i doubt that you be very much enlightened by it--others just didn't respond, so i made not effort to keep it up to date, or to provide more "in depth" material.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Nov, 2005 03:21 pm
I've lost count of the newspaper articles I've read - dozens so far. Some have been downright depressing, but since I don't feel I have a complete picture of what's really going on over there, anything I'd have to say would probably be seen as more rush-to-judgment commentary.

I may check out some of the French blogs to see what they're saying.

Sorry no one responded to your other thread, though.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Nov, 2005 03:27 pm
Radical Edward lives in the banlieu, and Francis could know more than just a bit about it as well.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Nov, 2005 03:41 pm
Whoa, have they been around?



It would be great to hear from them.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Nov, 2005 04:33 pm
Yes, on the banlieu thread.
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talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Nov, 2005 06:40 pm
DrewDad:

Sorry, I meant to say i'm NOT religious.

A while back I read that France forbad the wearing of the Muslim burka or such religious headwear by female students. The Muslim community is forever requesting that Sharia Law be instituted among Muslim. It a family law covering religious life, marriages, divorces, religious wear, customs, circumcision, eating of halal food (similar to Jewish kosher), etc. However, some communities practise female circumcision (the cutting of young girls' clitoris), honor killing, etc. and various forms of misogynistic customs which are are abhorent. The firm stand of rejecting Sharia Law and marginalization of immigrants may have contributed to the riots.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 09:04 am
About the only way to keep such things from happening is to institute Totalitarian rule where everything not permitted is forbidden. I see that cure as being worse than the disease.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 09:06 am
For the record, Lash, I was accusing you (and, by extension, Lusatian) of racism. Your rather pathetic attempt at disingenuity was certainly far from ingenious.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 10:30 am
DrewDad wrote:
For the record, Lash, I was accusing you (and, by extension, Lusatian) of racism. Your rather pathetic attempt at disingenuity was certainly far from ingenious.

How unfortunate for you. Had you only made the accusation last week, before the word lost all meaning....

If I am a racist, you should aspire to it. Laughing
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 10:38 am
Lash wrote:
How unfortunate for you. Had you only made the accusation last week, before the word lost all meaning....

You mean before you made "disingenuous" equate completely with "stupid, idiotic, and full of suckage?"

Lash wrote:
If I am a racist, you should aspire to it. Laughing

I stand corrected, you are more of a bigot. Not that I think you incapable of racism.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 10:48 am
Quit being disingenuous Drewdad.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 10:52 am
McGentrix wrote:
Quit being disingenuous Drewdad.

To what are you referring?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 10:54 am
He's just trying to stir the turd, DD, which constitutes his principle contribution to this site . . .
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 10:56 am
I see my Negroes and I have frustrated you. Please wipe the spittle from your face; you're grossing me out.

What are you so afraid of? Having to base your insults on fact?

I'm sure you have no homies. LOL!!!
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Nov, 2005 06:39 pm
The Paris riots a question of Islam?

I dont think so.

Skip to the bold parts for your answer. (Good article in full though.)

Quote:
A tram journey through France's heart of darkness

By Cahal Milmo in Seine-St-Denis
10 November 2005

Mamadou Omadou laughs derisively when asked whether Le Tramway has improved life in his poor suburb of north Paris.

He points from one of the stops on the state-of-the-art tram system, completed 18 months ago, to an adjoining junkyard full of the freshly blackened carcasses of cars and vans.

The politics student, 20, whose Senegalese parents came to France when he was two, said: "Yeah, the tram has improved things - look, it gives you a great view of all the bangers burnt up by the rioters. It's clean, it's efficient and it does what it's supposed to do - it gets you from one shithole to another without coming near any rich people."

When it was completed in December 2003, Le Tramway 1 was hailed as making good on a promise by the government to link the isolated banlieues, or suburbs, that have been the focus of 13 nights of rioting, with the rest of Paris.

Starting close to the striking medieval basilica in the historic quarter of St Denis, where kings of France are buried, the £60m light rail system runs through a succession of the quartiers difficiles or rundown neighbourhoods to the outskirts of central Paris and the 19th Arrondissement.

From La Courneuve to Blanc Mesnil to Drancy, Le Tramway takes 45 minutes to glide through some of the French capital's grimmest neighbourhoods.

It is a journey that epitomises the disconnection between a modern gleaming France that produces urban transport that Londoners can only dream of, and the concrete ghettoes it serves, where disenfranchised young people were just days ago throwing petrol bombs at buses for kicks.

When The Independent boarded the tram yesterday at Bobigny, an administrative hub north-east of central Paris where the network starts, it would have been hard to find a more diverse mix of passengers anywhere.

A west African woman, wearing traditional robes, sat next to a Chinese man while a group of French-Algerian schoolgirls giggled over a text message on one of their mobile phones. Two Bangladeshi men chatted while a north African woman wearing a veil manoeuvred her pushchair and accepted a seat given up by an Albanian busker.

It is a picture of multi-ethnic harmony continued three stops down the track at the Marché de la Ferme, Bobigny's teeming market. Traders hawk yams and Middle Eastern spices to shoppers drawn from former colonial possessions across four continents.

But Abdul Mahfouz, 45, argues from behind his stall selling Tunisian fritters that, although the Marché de la Ferme is in France, the last thing it is is French. He said: "We're happy here. There's lots of different nations and although life isn't easy for a lot of people, we mostly get on. But this isn't France. I will see one or two white French people in here every day. Even then, they are probably officials from the town hall. There is a real divide between the banlieues and the rest of Paris. We are a little island of foreigners all together."

Some 10 minutes further down the line, past the junkyard holding around 80 of the 3,000 cars burnt in the Paris region in the past fortnight, stand the tatty tower blocks of La Courneuve where at least some of the wrecked vehicles would have met their end in the running clashes between youths and police.

The least alluring blocks, with peeling paint dotted by graffiti, are due for demolition, to be replaced by new low-rise social housing. Mikhail, a Serbian refugee who said he was 14 but looked closer to 18, lives in a block due to be pulled down. He speaks in the same nihilistic terms as many involved in the violence. "I don't really care where we get moved. It will still be the same - no work, no money, lots of police.

"My friends went out during the riots. It was a bit of fun. We don't have much else to do. It's very easy to be forgotten up here."


The 45-minute tram journey is not a tour of unremitting urban degradation. The estates are punctuated by stretches of solid brick houses with large gardens and tree-lined streets. A number of hi-tech factories boast names such as Bosch and Phillips.

But a look in an estate agent's window in La Courneuve tells the true story about life alongside Tramway 1. A large flat sells for as little as €120,000 (£80,000) in this part of Greater Paris and it does not matter on which side of the tracks it stands.

Thierry Delagrange, an estate agent in the area for the past 10 years, said: "We are no more than five miles from the Eiffel Tower. The transport links are good, especially with the tram. But the middle classes are not really interested. Here a flat can stay unsold for two years. That's the difference of living in the banlieues."

As the tram reaches St Denis, at the other end of the line in Bobigny court proceedings were starting yesterday for a number of those arrested during the riots. Again they include a range of ethnic origins, from north African to west African to east European and white French. As Mr Omadou put it: "The tram will get you from your court hearing and back home again in half the time it used to. That's what progress means in the banlieues."
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