How Do We Win in Iraq?

i'm always fascinated by the hatred that some have for the u.n. it seems pretty illogical to me for people that claim to want a peaceful world view a multi-lateral organisation that's charter is to provide a place for diplomacy before, during and after warfare with such a jaundiced eye.

what's the problem ? the u.n. ain't perfect ? sooo ? what is ?

----

bush a "gutless coward" ? perhaps. less than qualified for the job of president of the united states ? yup.

which is how we got in this mess to start with.

like you, he and his choir ignored every fact about the culture of the middle eastern people and chose to fight a spy network with the military instead of fighting fire with fire.

and the end result is that the sole secular country in the region is now going to become a theocratic toadie to the ayatollahs, mullahs and clerics that, like our own, couldn't give a rat's fuzzy behind about anything beyond making sure that everyone is getting right with god, their way.

the iraq invasion had and has nothing to do with anything but bush, cheney, rummy and their pnac buddies getting hunk on ol' saddam for giving them the finger.

whoopee.

meanwhile, where the f**k is osama ?

The sad truth!!!!!!!


On the UN, the US actually headed up the UN in the beginning. The US pushed for the formation of the UN, but when the International common good gets in the way of national interest it is the bane of any existing pro-supranational organizations.

They got Hitler a lot faster than they are finding Osama. His whole family was flown out of NY after 9/11, so go figure. I'll betcha the CIA knows where he is, but the US needs a boogie man. Always have.

english, A good possibility, that! After all, this administration ignored all the warnings from Blix, ElBaradei, and Smith to start their war. But the other possibility is the simple fact that Bush is not capable of multi-tasking.

Yes, you're right about Bush. But Karl Rove, Bush's handler, and Cheney are quite capable. Bush is just their mouthpiece (and a damned poor one)

The history books are going to be full of Bushisms including the fact that he's the first president in the modern world that can't speak proper English. Can't imagine he's the most powerful man on earth; a dummy.

Osama's hanging out with me. At first, the rent money was cool but all he does is sit around and watch Brady Bunch reruns. And you would think a guy would help with the laundry once in awhile....

Experts debate Iraq War
10/13/2005

By MICHAEL ZITZ

Gen. Wesley Clark looked very much like a candidate for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination during last night's Fredericksburg Forum.

Clark, an early front-runner in the 2004 Democratic race, ultimately lost the nomination to John Kerry. But at the University of Mary Washington event, he sounded like he was already back on the stump as he slammed George W. Bush, saying the president lacks a real foreign policy in Iraq and beyond--even in his second term.

"We still don't have a strategy," Clark said. "That's the truth about where America is in foreign affairs. There's no connection between the ends we seek," which he described as spreading American values, " and the actions we're taking in the Middle East and elsewhere."

Clark was joined onstage by the forum's other two participants, former secretaries of state Madeleine Albright and Lawrence Eagleburger. Albright began the trio's discussion in a conciliatory tone, but Clark would have none of it.

"We've got to very quickly take the military out of the lead role in every action we take around the world," Clark told the forum crowd at UMW's Dodd Auditorium. "Our military's overstretched and overcommitted right now.

"And there's only so much our country can accomplish by killing people," he said to the cheers of some in the audience.

"We've got to go beyond that," Clark said. "We've got to put in place a real strategy for fighting and winning the war on terror, and that starts with the ideology. We've got to change people's minds."

He said America must persuade young Arabs by appealing to their faith. "We have to convince them that the Quran doesn't call for the killing of innocent people."

Clark said America must stop alienating its friends and work more closely with its allies to share intelligence and stop terrorism. "Only as a last resort should we use military force," he said.

Republican Lawrence Eagleburger, who was secretary of state under President George H.W. Bush, forcefully replied, "I'm not going to sit here and listen to this President Bush being criticized for using military force in Iraq."

The audience seemed to enjoy it when Eagleburger and Clark mixed it up, and both men smiled and laughed good-naturedly.

Responding to Clark, Eagleburger noted that it was Democratic President Bill Clinton who used military force in Somalia, Haiti and the Balkans.

Clark, a retired four-star general, was NATO's supreme allied commander in Kosovo under Clinton.

"And I'm not going to sit here and apologize for our policy in Iraq," Eagleburger said, adding that Saturday's vote on an Iraqi constitution is evidence that George W. Bush's efforts are paying off.

Clark said he fears continuing reticence by Iraqi Sunnis about participating in the constitutional process will lead to even more violence.

Albright said she sees potential in Bush's efforts to bring democracy to the Middle East. But she added that America must not appear to be forcing its way of life on the Arab world.

"And we must be patient," Albright said. "Democracy is not an event, but a process."

Clark said that Bush quickly forgot his promise to pursue the terrorists responsible for the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. "You haven't heard Osama bin Laden's name in a while," Clark said. "That's because he's alive and well."

And, Clark said, America's presence in Iraq has helped boost al-Qaida recruiting.

He said the United States' "footprint" must be removed from Iraq.

Clark said he's not advocating a timeline for withdrawal from Iraq. "But I'm saying if we're gonna get out of there, we've got to use all the elements of American power, including diplomacy."

Eagleburger admitted that what he called Bush's "cowboy diplomacy" has irked former allies, but he also questioned those allies' loyalty and usefulness, singling out France for special criticism.

He said Western Europe, aside from Britain, went along with America "when it knew a certain part of its anatomy was on the line" in the struggle against the Soviets, but has since shown its true attitude toward the United States. Resentment toward America is nothing new in those countries, he said, and the U.S. should stop worrying about whether our policies please them.

Eagleburger, who was secretary of state when the Soviet Union dissolved, agreed with Clark that the end of the Cold War caused America to lose its foreign-policy focus.

fredericksburg

I think Gen. Wesley Clark makes some very good points.

freedom, I agree; Clark makes some very good points. The reason the Brits joined in the "coalition of the willing" is based on the simple fact that their loyalty blinded the justifications. That's the reason why our other friends did not join us in the preemptive war in Iraq. They had the same news most of us had; we listened to Blix, ElBaradei, and Smith who were in the best position to know Saddam's WMD programs. They had destroyed most of it by 1998, and they couldn't find any after inspections restarted.

Bush doesn't have a foreign policy; "stay the course" is not acceptable when we continue to lose more American men and women and $5 billion every month on a war that only increased world terrorism.

We need the cooperation of the world community. Bush has only accomplished to alienate many of our friends and most Arab countries. That's the worst kind of "foreign policy" this country has ever had in our history.

tell him, the muslims called. they want their religion back.

Why do we care if we win in Iraq? We've already lost in the US:

Moveon.org tried to buy ads last year to express opposition to Bush's Medicare proposal which was then being debated by Congress. They were
told "issue advocacy" was not permissible. Then, one of the networks that had refused the Moveon ad began running advertisements by the White
House in favor of the President's Medicare proposal.
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/10/06/D8D2IU703.html

Al Gore Speech: 'AMERICAN DEMOCRACY IS IN GRAVE DANGER' / TEXT OF GORE SPEECH AT MEDIA CONFERENCE
Associated Press, October 12, 2005

Al Gore's speech: http://mediacenter.blogs.com/morph/2005/10/al_gore_address.html

C.I Thanks for the post. We are in an "alternate universe." How the American people can just go on day after day with the knowledge that we allow torture...something we abhorred with Saddam Hussein, but ok to keep us safe from the "terrorists".

We are not going to win this war.

We have already lost this war, because this war is being fought without the ethics and pride of fighting a war in accordance with the Geneva Conventions and international approval. We are an aggressor and occupier of a sovereign nation without good cause.

The American People would not have approved this war on any justification other than self defense. Never to justify bringing democracy to the middle east (or any place else on this planet) or to rid a country of a tyrant-leader (as there are many).

Oh gee, that was simple. How stupid weve all been. The whole thing could have been summed up in one sentence. Well somebody call the President. Right Brother's got the whole thing figured out, We can all go home now.KILL DIE KILL DIE KILL. It's so simple.

Vietnamnurse!
How very nice to see you here!
Most likely you won't remember me from Abuzz (where I probably did more reading than posting) but I certainly remember you! Welcome back!

hey gal!

like msolga said, glad to see you again.

go here,

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=60139&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

page two, you are mentioned about a post you made on abuzz back in 2001. you and your thoughts are well remebered

I hope all your doggies are well too.

Hello to you all!
msolga, I certainly do remember you! Kuvasz, I am just getting back to Able after a long time away after mamajuana died in Sept of '03. We had become close friends and I lost heart in posting. I didn't forget all you friends here and I am so glad to be back with you again.

Kuvie, I was so sad to read about Kodie (Kodi?). I lost three dogs in 7 months last year. Two were old....my Irish Wolfhound was nearly 11! But I lost a young Border Terrier to a brain tumor at 7. It is never easy to lose our good and faithful friends. I would like to give you a few lines from the AKC Gazette Special Issue that came out in Sept. of 2001..."They Make Our Lives Whole." On the back page is a quote from John Galsworthy, entitled "Memories" For Kuvasz)

"Not the least hard thing to bear
when they go from us, these
quiet friends, is that they carry
away with them so many years
of our own lives."


Those lines never fail to bring me to tears.

In this same issue is a wonderful story written by the Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright, Edward Albee about his Irish Wolfhound, Harry, who lived to the grand old age of 12, which is VERY old for an Irish Wolfhound. A wonderful story about how..." humans think they are the sole possessors of consciousness. All seven of my Irish Wolfhound friends possessed a consciousness---awareness of self, awareness of selflessness, awareness of mortality---far more persuasive than that of many people I have known."

Mamajuana and I would talk about our pets....and kids...Bush and how the war in Iraq would end. Two people who have no foreign policy experience except knowledge of history and human nature and we predicted how much of this has come to be. I think it will be far worse for all of us than we now know.

For us, our children, our friends, and our beloved pets.

Diane, I am so sorry to hear of the loss of your dogs. It must have a been terrible for you to lose them so quickly. You love them as much as I do mine. those were beautiful words you posted for us here.

If you are still interested in a kuvasz let me know. The kennel we talked about long ago has just rescued a young male and I think they might let you have him.

take care, and happy to see you post again.