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How Do We Win in Iraq?

 
 
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2005 09:29 am
The real question is how we keep a pullout from looking like a surrender.

By Fred Kaplan
Posted Friday, Sept. 9, 2005, at 3:25 AM PT


http://img.slate.msn.com/media/1/123125/123063/2111846/2125477/050909_ws_CLARK_tn.jpg
"Uh, that's a hard one to answer..."Slate
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 14,149 • Replies: 340
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Chrissee
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2005 09:32 am
Just pullout, have Bush stuff a couple socks in his crotch, land on a battleship and declare Mission Accomplished. It will play with his delusional base at least.
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2005 09:33 am
The only way for the US to come out of Iraq with any dignity is to stand up and say that what you have done there is an unmitigated disaster for Iraq and the US. Commit to rebuild at least some of the infrastructure that you have destroyed, in co-operation with whatever government emerges.
Say that you have learned that you do not want to be an imperial power. That you will instead use your position in the world to further democracy and human rights through co-operative projects with countries who can and will use help to benifit their people.
A good guy can admit to error and come out ahead in the end. Do it. A bunch of lies and posturing will not fool anyone, and make you look weak as well as dumb.
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Chrissee
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2005 09:36 am
Seriously though...this is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.

There can be do no good end to this.
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Sturgis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2005 09:48 am
Sadly wars are never won, there is always a loss on the part of all of those involved.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2005 11:23 pm
freedom4free wrote:
The only way for the US to come out of Iraq with any dignity is to stand up and say that what you have done there is an unmitigated disaster for Iraq and the US. Commit to rebuild at least some of the infrastructure that you have destroyed, in co-operation with whatever government emerges.
Say that you have learned that you do not want to be an imperial power. That you will instead use your position in the world to further democracy and human rights through co-operative projects with countries who can and will use help to benifit their people.
A good guy can admit to error and come out ahead in the end. Do it. A bunch of lies and posturing will not fool anyone, and make you look weak as well as dumb.

Actually, we're not going to say this because it isn't true. The invasion of Iraq was necessary to find out the truth about the WMD Iraq had had, and the next time we're in the same situation (negotiation has failed by any rational standard), invasion will be necessary again. Man's weapons technology is progressing at a speed such that it will quite possibly destroy him. The inevitable can at least be delayed if we keep doomsday weapons out of the hands of madmen like Hussein.
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Sep, 2005 11:37 pm
Change policy
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kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Sep, 2005 09:58 pm
America doesn't.

Quote:
In November of last year, the iconoclastic military historian Martin van Creveld, peering through a glass darkly, foresaw this spectre of defeat in an essay called Why Iraq Will End as Vietnam Did.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/crevald1.html

"[He] who fights against the weak - and the rag-tag Iraqi militias are very weak indeed - and loses, loses. He who fights against the weak and wins also loses. To kill an opponent who is much weaker than yourself is unnecessary and therefore cruel; to let that opponent kill you is unnecessary and therefore foolish. As Vietnam and countless other cases prove, no armed force however rich, however powerful, however, advanced, and however well motivated is immune to this dilemma. The end result is always disintegration and defeat; if U.S troops in Iraq have not yet started fragging their officers, the suicide rate among them is already exceptionally high. That is why the present adventure will almost certainly end as the previous one did. Namely, with the last US troops fleeing the country while hanging on to their helicopters' skids."

What would the ramifications of such a defeat mean back here, apart from making Ralph Peters' head pop like a blister?

William S. Lind, the salty theorist of Fourth Generation warfare who has shared van Creveld's misgivings from the outset of Gulf War II, argues that the U.S. will undergo its own internal convulsions, a true crisis of the state:

"Fourth Generation war is asymmetrical, but it is asymmetrical on a much broader scale than simply the pitting of a conventional army against guerrillas. The larger asymmetry is political. Fourth Generation war pits a state, or alliance of states, against a shifting mass of opponents of wildly varying motives and goals. Among the problems that presents is that the state has no one to talk to about making peace. Who does Mr. Kissinger sit down with in Paris this time?

"Nor does Fourth Generation war have as its objective the mind of the leader on the other side. Rather, what it does is pull its enemy apart on the moral level, fracturing his society."

Lind quotes perceptive comments from journalist Georgie Anne Geyer (once a regular on PBS, she has been largely invisible on the airwaves since becoming an outspoken critic of Imperial America) and former ambassador Charles W. Freeman. Quoting Geyer--"More telling was the lack of debate even in Congress over the war: 'This is not,' [Freeman] averred strongly, "just a political problem; it is a systemic breakdown in America"--Lind hammers the point home:

"That is just what Fourth Generation opponents strive for, a systemic breakdown in their state adversary. The danger sign in America is not a hot national debate over the war in Iraq and its course, but precisely the absence of such a debate - which, as former Senator Gary Hart has pointed out, is largely due to a lack of courage on the part of the Democrats. Far from ensuring a united nation, what such a lack of debate and absence of alternatives makes probable is a bitter fracturing of the American body politic once the loss of the war becomes evident to the public. The public will feel itself betrayed, not merely by one political party, but by the whole political system.

"The primum mobile of Fourth Generation war is a crisis of legitimacy of the state. If the absence of a loyal opposition and alternative courses of action further delegitimizes the American state in the eye of the public, the forces of the Fourth Generation will have won a victory of far greater proportions than anything that could happen on the ground in Iraq. The Soviet Union's defeat in Afghanistan played a central role in the collapse of the Soviet state. Could the American defeat in Iraq have similar consequences here? The chance is far greater than Washington elites can imagine."

The absence of debate is undeniably a sign of shame and cowardice, yet I can't blame high-profile Democrats from absenting themselves from yesterday's antiwar demo and march in DC. Steve Gilliard confessed that he watched about an hour of the rally and was so p.o.'d that he wanted to do an Elvis to his TV screen. I'm a less patient hothead than Steve. I only lasted about ten minutes watching the rally on C-SPAN, which made Stepford Wives selling Christmas kitsch on QVC--no fooling, at QVC the "Christmas Countdown" has already begun--must-see viewing by comparison. Here are the problems with mass rallies and marches on TV.

1) They all look alike. They're interchangeable pedestrian jams. If you didn't know what year it was, you wouldn't have known whether this demo was taking place in 2003 or 2004 or spring of 2005, because apart from Cindy Sheehan and a few others, it was the same cast of characters you always get at these protest smorgasbords, which remind me of WBAI at its most doctrinaire PC, where every faction and caucus has to be represented and heard no matter how boring or splintery or tangential to the event they are. What you get is an event that seems to have been exhumed from a time capsule buried in some aging ponytailed radical's back yard. As Steve writes:

"I mean some of the speakers were in fantasyland. The slogans were from the 1970's.

"Nader, Galloway, even the ANSWER people don't bother me. But Mexicanos Sin Fronteras? Lynne Stewart? Uh, she was convicted of aiding a terrorist. She may be innocent in the end, but isn't she a distraction now?

"A lot of people want to downplay their role, or ignore it, but the reality is, that every minute of CSPAN devoted to them and their message is going to dilute the anti-war message."

The right never makes that mistake. They enforce a message discipline.

"Think about this: do you have a school prayer protest at an anti-abortion rally?

"**** no. One message is clear, Fifteen are not."

2) The scale is all wrong for TV.

To be heard before thousands of gatherers, speakers feel they have to shout into the mike and every every phrase sound STENTORIAN. But for the larger audience at home, it's like being harangued, and who wants to be harangued, especially by speakers pounding you with played-out slogans? And no matter how large the crowd, on TV it looks like congested clutter, a sea of tiny, ugly billboards. It really doesn't help that so many of the signs are homemade and hackneyed. As the camera panned over the crowd yesterday, I saw placards featuring Mumia and Malcolm X, and I thought, What have they got to do with what's happening now in Iraq? The placards looked as dated as punk Mohawks in the East Village, and watching protesters wave them around as if they were in the studio audience trying to get Monty Hall's attention on Let's Make a Deal didn't help.

With her vigil near the Crawford ranch, Cindy Sheehan carved out an original protest space. The magnitude of yesterday's protest miniaturized her. It was as if she was swallowed up inside a whale aslosh with flotsam. I don't know what the answer is to the lack of adversarial energy against this accursed war, but what I do know is that yesterday's flea circus wasn't it.


http://www.jameswolcott.com/

serious people can discuss what the consequences are of an islamic republic beholded to the Law of Sharia in what once a Baathist dictatorship, but there should be no illusions about iraq being a stable, shining city on a hill in the middle east that is the seed corn for democratization in that part of the world.

But I am more concerned as the quotes above attest, to what this war has cost us on the homefront in the way our government operates and little control we have ovr it anymore..

There was a brief moment where we as a people were turning to being the instrutments of our own purpose. but no more.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Sep, 2005 07:00 am
For the us it is a no win situation. We have awoken the beast and he is devouring us.
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kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Sep, 2005 10:03 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
The invasion of Iraq was necessary to find out the truth about the WMD Iraq had had....


No, it was NOT necessary, because Iraq had allowed inspectors into the country to find out about the WMD's.

The first round of inspectors were inhibited, and Hans Blix said so to the UN. However, the UN allowed a second round of inspections to take place, and made clear this was Iraq's last chance. This second round of inspections was going very satisfactorily, things were being accounted for, and then Bush ordered all inspectors out of Iraq and invaded.

It was not necessary to invade Iraq to find out about WMD's, since the second round of inspections was going quite well until Bush called them off and ordered the inspectors home.
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kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Sep, 2005 10:06 pm
I think it is clear that Bush invaded because he was afraid that the inspections were going to show that there WEREN'T any WMD's, and now that he had the whole country, (with the aid of a compliant press), whipped up into a frenzy, he didn't want any facts to spoil the invasion fever.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Sep, 2005 10:33 pm
kuvasz, Not only are more officers committing suicide, but also an increase in divorce. Those that continue to promote this war have not personally experienced their son or daughter committing suicide or divorce - not to mention the thousands that have returned with physical and psychological injuries that will not heal over time. The price for this war is high; how many more Americans are we willing to sacrifice for the misadventure of this president and his administration?

The poll numbers are beginning to tell the story; over fifty percent are now saying this war was wrong.

With the cost of this war plus the cost of rebuilding the cities destroyed by the recent hurricanes, on top of the increasing national debt, higher cost of fuel, it won't be long before the poll numbers become deafening for our government. I hope it's sooner than later; longer only means more men and women lives lost and five billion added to the deficit every month we are involved.

Without a exit strategy, we will sacrifice the security of America for Iraq.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Sep, 2005 11:23 pm
Not to mention the Iraqi lives.

Not to mention the $300 billion, and rising.

Let's see... $1,000 for every man, woman, and child in the US.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Sep, 2005 10:14 am
We will end up winning in Iraq as we did in Viet Nam.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Sep, 2005 10:28 am
We won't see the last helicopters leaving the roofs in Baghdad, there are none; they've all been destroyed.
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Sturgis
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Sep, 2005 10:30 am
kelticwizard wrote:
I think it is clear that Bush invaded because he was afraid that the inspections were going to show that there WEREN'T any WMD's, and now that he had the whole country, (with the aid of a compliant press), whipped up into a frenzy, he didn't want any facts to spoil the invasion fever.


Even for leftist stupidity that was way out there.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Sep, 2005 12:00 pm
kelticwizard wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
The invasion of Iraq was necessary to find out the truth about the WMD Iraq had had....


No, it was NOT necessary, because Iraq had allowed inspectors into the country to find out about the WMD's.

The first round of inspectors were inhibited, and Hans Blix said so to the UN. However, the UN allowed a second round of inspections to take place, and made clear this was Iraq's last chance. This second round of inspections was going very satisfactorily, things were being accounted for, and then Bush ordered all inspectors out of Iraq and invaded.

It was not necessary to invade Iraq to find out about WMD's, since the second round of inspections was going quite well until Bush called them off and ordered the inspectors home.

We would have been justified in invading Iraq the very first time Hussein violated his surrender treaty for Gulf War 1. Theoretically, invasion should have been under the auspices of the UN, but when they demonstrated that they lacked the resolve to enforce their own mandates, that made enforcement the responsibility of whoever had the capability. A dozen years had passed and now Hussein was saying that all remaining weapons had been destroyed, but that he had no real proof, which is something he easily could have had. Since the consequences of Iraq managing to hide the weapons well enough to continue to fool the inspectors might include the use of a WMD in a city, the matter had to be taken as gravely serious. Had Hussein merely been hiding the weapons better, and had Bush not invaded, then when WMD were later used to annihilate entire cities, Bush might have been branded as responsible for the resultant hundreds of thousands of deaths.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Sep, 2005 12:02 pm
kelticwizard wrote:
I think it is clear that Bush invaded because he was afraid that the inspections were going to show that there WEREN'T any WMD's, and now that he had the whole country, (with the aid of a compliant press), whipped up into a frenzy, he didn't want any facts to spoil the invasion fever.

Well, if it's clear, then perhaps you would be willing to furnish some evidence that this was Bush's motivation.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Sep, 2005 12:04 pm
DrewDad wrote:
Not to mention the Iraqi lives.

Not to mention the $300 billion, and rising.

Let's see... $1,000 for every man, woman, and child in the US.

And had there been WMD, and if one was later used in an American city, what would be the cost in lives and money? But I forget, you don't lower yourself to support your various positions.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Sep, 2005 12:16 pm
"...had there been WMD..." is an oxymoron. You can't keep pushing WMDs that have never been found, no matter how often repeated.

"Fear" is not justification to preemptively attack another sovereign country that kills thousands of innocent people.
0 Replies
 
 

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