What Really Happened on 9/11?

If seeking the truth about 9/11 makes me a "conspiracy nut" by people buying the Bush administratioins lies, then Yes, PLEASE call me a 'conspiracy nut"

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http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/collapses/shattering.html
The Twin Towers' Frames Disintegrated Before Falling

" At first the motion consists of a tipping of the approximately 30 stories above the impact zone as a unit, about a fulcrum in or around the impact zone."

The rapid downward acceleration indicates that the fulcrum has been destroyed. This is difficult to reconcile with a gravity-driven collapse. Since the top had already tipped about 15 degrees, the downward force on the building's structure below the fulcrum was already decreasing. One would expect the tipping to continue, eventually resulting in the top falling like a tree.

Disappearing Angular Momentum
The deceleration of the top's rotation is even more discrediting to the idea of a gravity-driven collapse, which cannot explain the documented changes in angular momentum. Conservation of angular momentum is the tendency of a rotating solid object to continue rotating at the same rate in the absence of torque.

Given the apparent absence of any torque to counter the rotation of the block, the slowing of its rotation can only be explained by the breakup of most of the block, which would have destroyed its moment of inertia.

0 Replies

Amigo wrote:

If seeking the truth about 9/11 makes me a "conspiracy nut" by people buying the Bush administratioins lies, then Yes, PLEASE call me a 'conspiracy nut"

I don't think seeking the truth about 9/11 makes you a "conspiracy nut".

I believe you are mixing things up - the motivation to go to war, the misleading of the Bush administration etc., and events on 9/11. I don't think you necessarily have to believe everything the Bush administration says. I don't. I don't think you necessarily have to believe everything any administration says, for that matter.

However, if you are really seeking the truth about 9/11, it might be helpful not to discard everything the Bush administration says just because it's the Bush administration saying this.

I guess, sometimes the Bush administration can say things, and those things are true at the same time. I don't believe that's mutually exclusive.

Do you think so?

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Zippo wrote:

old europe

Quote:
Zippo, do you believe that the collapse of the Towers started on floor 110?

South Tower the explosives were detonating right across the east face at the 75th floor, so probably started from there

I take that as a "no".

So you believe the collapse of the South Tower started at the 75th floor, right? Why then did you say

Zippo wrote:

The official story is that the collapse began when one floor broke, and the pieces fell to the floor below it. The towers had 110 floors, so if it took one second for each floor to be crushed, that would be 110 seconds.

And, while we're at it: How did you determine it takes 1 second for 1 floor to collapse?

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old europe wrote:

Amigo wrote:
If seeking the truth about 9/11 makes me a "conspiracy nut" by people buying the Bush administratioins lies, then Yes, PLEASE call me a 'conspiracy nut"

I don't think seeking the truth about 9/11 makes you a "conspiracy nut".

I believe you are mixing things up - the motivation to go to war, the misleading of the Bush administration etc., and events on 9/11. I don't think you necessarily have to believe everything the Bush administration says. I don't. I don't think you necessarily have to believe everything any administration says, for that matter.

However, if you are really seeking the truth about 9/11, it might be helpful not to discard everything the Bush administration says just because it's the Bush administration saying this.

I guess, sometimes the Bush administration can say things, and those things are true at the same time. I don't believe that's mutually exclusive.

Do you think so?

Yes, I agree. What Bush says and what I say does not matter. The truth is the only thing that matters and this whole thing is about awareness and thinking and an Independent investigation.

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Quote:

And, while we're at it: How did you determine it takes 1 second for 1 floor to collapse?

Averages ?

Why am i teaching you basic maths ?

The buildings were constructed with over 200,000 tons of steel
425,000 cubic yards of concrete
47 Box Columns each 36x16 inches thick

Galileo's law of falling bodies calculates the time in which an object will fall a certain distance in complete free fall. i.e. how long will it take for an apple to fall off the tree, IF it were to have NOTHING stopping (such as branches).
The law is as follows:
Distance= 16.08 x seconds squared

The South Tower was 1362ft tall.

Now the Math:
1362= 16.08 X 84.7 OR 9.2 seconds.

The South Tower fell in approximately 10.20 seconds. Nearly free fall speed. OR, Nearly impossible speed considering "pancaking" would slow it down. Regardless of the weight, mass, etc there is NO possible way the buildings would fall at near free-fall speed.

You can find more detail here

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Zippo wrote:

Quote:
And, while we're at it: How did you determine it takes 1 second for 1 floor to collapse?

Averages ?

Why i'm i teaching you basic maths ?

The buildings were constructed with over 200,000 tons of steel
425,000 cubic yards of concrete
47 Box Columns each 36x16 inches thick

Galileo's law of falling bodies calculates the time in which an object will fall a certain distance in complete free fall. i.e. how long will it take for an apple to fall off the tree, IF it were to have NOTHING stopping (such as branches).
The law is as follows:
Distance= 16.08 x seconds squared

The South Tower was 1362ft tall.

Now the Math:
1362= 16.08 X 84.7 OR 9.2 seconds.

The South Tower fell in approximately 10.20 seconds. Nearly free fall speed. OR, Nearly impossible speed considering "pancaking" would slow it down. Regardless of the weight, mass, etc there is NO possible way the buildings would fall at near free-fall speed.

I've got no clue what you're trying to tell me by this "averages" stuff. I notice you didn't answer the question: How did you determine it takes 1 second for 1 floor to collapse?

However, we can observe the following: IF

Quote:

The buildings were constructed with over 200,000 tons of steel
425,000 cubic yards of concrete
47 Box Columns each 36x16 inches thick

... THEN this means that the 35 floors of the South Tower that came down simultanously, according to you, were constructed with over

- 63,636 tons of steel
- 135,227 cubic yards of concrete

You have been saying earlier that the lower floors should have easily withstood the force of the upper floors, of 63,636 tons of steel and 135,227 cubic yards of concrete crashing down upon them simultanously. I think you have been a bit over-optimistic.

But we have been over this before, so let me repeat the question you seemed unable to answer:

How did you determine it takes 1 second for 1 floor to collapse?

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Quote:

How did you determine it takes 1 second for 1 floor to collapse?

Oh boy, read carefully.

The time t required for an object to fall from a height h (in a vacuum) is given by the formula t = sqrt(2h/g), where g is the acceleration due to gravity. Thus an object falling from the top of one of the towers (taking h = 1306 feet and g = 32.174 ft/sec2) would take 9.01 seconds to hit the ground if we ignore the resistance of the air and a few seconds longer if we take air resistance into account.

The Twin Towers each collapsed in less than fifteen seconds, close to free fall.

Following the start of the collapse the upper floors would have had to shatter the steel joints in all 85 or so floors at the lower levels. If this required only one second per floor then the collapse would have required more than a minute. But the material from the upper floors ploughed through the lower floors at a speed of at least six floors per second. This is possible only if all structural support in the lower 85 or so floors had been completely eliminated prior to the initiation of the collapse. Since the lower floors were undamaged by the plane impacts and the fires, the removal of all structural support in these floors must have been due to some other cause — and the most obvious possibility is explosives. Thus the speed of the collapse (not much more than the time of free fall) is conclusive evidence that the Twin Towers were brought down in a controlled demolition involving the use of explosives (or some other destructive technology) at all levels.

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So lets see if an idiot like me can understand you conspiracy.

1)Someone prior to 9-11 2001 wires the WTC is a way to have a controlled demolotion from approx the 82nd floor and lower.

2) Make sure no one see them doing this.

3) Organizes with a terrorist group or is part of a terrorist group that will fly airplances into both buildings making sure they crash into them from at about floor 82 in one building and somewhat lower in the next building. This is to occur on 9-11 so to give them time to wire the buildings for controlled demolition.

4) Somebody is waiting accross the stree or close to the buildings with detonators waiting for the planes to arrive, I presume, with a remote detonator.

5) Plane 1 hits building..."where oh where is plane 2", says person with detonator.

6) 45 minutes later plance 2 arrives.

7) person with detonator waits a while enjoying the specticle, to demolish the building the second plane hit first.

8) person with detonator waits a few more minutes, but has to move a bit cause building one already has fallen, and blows the building the first plane hit.

These people may or may not have been associated with the US Govt or Isreali Govt.

Did I miss anything?

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Zippo wrote:

Quote:
How did you determine it takes 1 second for 1 floor to collapse?

Oh boy, read carefully.

Following the start of the collapse the upper floors would have had to shatter the steel joints in all 85 or so floors at the lower levels. If this required only one second per floor then the collapse would have required more than a minute.

Okay then. What you seem to say is: one single floor should be able to withstand the force of 35 floors (or more) coming down upon it for at least 1 second.

Right?

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woiyo wrote:

So lets see if an idiot like me can understand you conspiracy.

1)Someone prior to 9-11 2001 wires the WTC is a way to have a controlled demolotion from approx the 82nd floor and lower.

2) Make sure no one see them doing this.

3) Organizes with a terrorist group or is part of a terrorist group that will fly airplances into both buildings making sure they crash into them from at about floor 82 in one building and somewhat lower in the next building. This is to occur on 9-11 so to give them time to wire the buildings for controlled demolition.

4) Somebody is waiting accross the stree or close to the buildings with detonators waiting for the planes to arrive, I presume, with a remote detonator.

5) Plane 1 hits building..."where oh where is plane 2", says person with detonator.

6) 45 minutes later plance 2 arrives.

7) person with detonator waits a while enjoying the specticle, to demolish the building the second plane hit first.

8) person with detonator waits a few more minutes, but has to move a bit cause building one already has fallen, and blows the building the first plane hit.

These people may or may not have been associated with the US Govt or Isreali Govt.

Did I miss anything?

Yes, you forgot the gaping holes in the walls on every level that would have been needed to access the beams to set the detonators. That means all the office staff of both buildings were also involved in the conspiracy.

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You mean the 35 floor section that disintegrating in to fine dust ? Very Happy

What could possibly cause the top section to almost entirely disintegrate, before the lower section begins to collapse?

You have to realize that most of the top section had not been affected by the aircraft strike or fires and was thus still the same immensely strong structure that had supported the building for more than 30 years. If this section was going to fall at all, this section would fall as one piece.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5459/522/400/001.jpg

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5459/522/400/227.jpg

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5459/522/400/255.jpg

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5459/522/400/001Z.jpg

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5459/522/400/227Z.jpg

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5459/522/400/255Z.jpg

Your turn to answer now. Smile

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By the way, I'm amazed how you change your theory from post to post.

You started with this:

Zippo wrote:

The official story is that the collapse began when one floor broke, and the pieces fell to the floor below it. The towers had 110 floors, so if it took one second for each floor to be crushed, that would be 110 seconds.

We note you imply the collapse started on floor 110.
Then you said

Zippo wrote:

South Tower the explosives were detonating right across the east face at the 75th floor, so probably started from there

Now you're saying the collapse started on floor 75.
And in your last post, you said

Zippo wrote:

Following the start of the collapse the upper floors would have had to shatter the steel joints in all 85 or so floors at the lower levels.

So now, all of a sudden the collapse started on floor 85.

And so it goes on and on and on and on. You don't seem to have the slightest idea of what theory you're actually advancing. You change your story with every post you're posting. You make up facts without backing them up ("a floor should withstand the force of the upper floors coming down for at least one second").

Zippo, if you can make up your mind and stick with one theory for more than 3 posts, let me know....

0 Replies

McGentrix

Quote:

Yes, you forgot the gaping holes in the walls on every level that would have been needed to access the beams to set the detonators. That means all the office staff of both buildings were also involved in the conspiracy.

Quote:

An article in New York Newsday documented the removal of bomb-sniffing dogs just five days before the attack.

September 12, 2001

The World Trade Center was destroyed just days after a heightened security alert was lifted at the landmark 110-story towers, security personnel said yesterday.

Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone threats. But on Thursday, bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed.

"Today was the first day there was not the extra security," Coard said. "We were protecting below. We had the ground covered. We didn't figure they would do it with planes. There is no way anyone could have stopped that."

Security guard Hermina Jones said officials had recently taken steps to secure the towers against aerial attacks by installing bulletproof windows and fireproof doors in the 22nd-floor computer command center... 1

Security Provided by Company Linked to Bush Family

Security for the World Trade Center on 9/11/01 was provided Stratesec, a company in which George W. Bush's brother Marvin was a past principal, and which was backed by an Kuwaiti-American investment firm.

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McGentrix wrote:

woiyo wrote:
So lets see if an idiot like me can understand you conspiracy.

1)Someone prior to 9-11 2001 wires the WTC is a way to have a controlled demolotion from approx the 82nd floor and lower.

2) Make sure no one see them doing this.

3) Organizes with a terrorist group or is part of a terrorist group that will fly airplances into both buildings making sure they crash into them from at about floor 82 in one building and somewhat lower in the next building. This is to occur on 9-11 so to give them time to wire the buildings for controlled demolition.

4) Somebody is waiting accross the stree or close to the buildings with detonators waiting for the planes to arrive, I presume, with a remote detonator.

5) Plane 1 hits building..."where oh where is plane 2", says person with detonator.

6) 45 minutes later plance 2 arrives.

7) person with detonator waits a while enjoying the specticle, to demolish the building the second plane hit first.

8) person with detonator waits a few more minutes, but has to move a bit cause building one already has fallen, and blows the building the first plane hit.

These people may or may not have been associated with the US Govt or Isreali Govt.

Did I miss anything?

Yes, you forgot the gaping holes in the walls on every level that would have been needed to access the beams to set the detonators. That means all the office staff of both buildings were also involved in the conspiracy.

Oh, well that could have been an inside job . Terrorists disguised as janitorial staff carting around toilet paper but it really was C-5. You know, shove that C-5 into the middle of the toilet paper.

Do you think it was the hot dog vendor who had the detonator.?

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old europe, don't change subject, answer my questions.

You know very well the floors range from 75-85, from the photos its hard to guess.

hence my quote

Quote:

...85 or so floors..

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woiyo, you are a troll, do you want me to post that photo of you again ? Very Happy

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Zippo wrote:

You mean the 35 floor section that disintegrating in to fine dust ?

The section disintegrated into fine dust when it hit the floors below? Huh. Who would have thought. Yes. That 35 floor section.

Zippo wrote:

What could possibly cause the top section to almost entirely disintegrate, before the lower section begins to collapse?

Nothing. And it didn't happen. You're getting a bit desperate now, making stuff up. You shouldn't do that. Not good for your credibility.

Here, have a look at a video (from your source9): does this look like the "top section almost entirely disintegrates, before the lower section begins to collapse"?

Stop making stuff up, Zippo. You're trying too hard now.

Zippo wrote:

If this section was going to fall at all, this section would fall as one piece.

I agree. And that's what happened, the blurry pictures with the pseudo-lines somebody MSPainted in nonwithstanding. Here's another video (your source again).

Whaddya say? Does it look like this section fell as one piece? Huh?

Come on, don't be shy!

(Any conspiracy nut who wants to chime in: Did it fall in one piece? Or not? Look at the videos! Come on! One piece? Yes? No?)

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Zippo wrote:

old europe, don't change subject, answer my questions.

You know very well the floors range from 75-85, from the photos its hard to guess.

hence my quote

Quote:
...85 or so floors..

I know very well the floors range from 79 to 84.

So you concede that you were mistaken when you alleged the collapse started at floor 110?

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old europe

Quote:

does this look like the "top section almost entirely disintegrates, before the lower section begins to collapse"?

Why watch the video, when we can see each frame at a time ? Very Happy

Here's the proof :

South Tower Collapse Video Frames
Video Evidence of the South Tower Collapse

Check Mate! ? Very Happy

Whaddya say? Very Happy

Come on, don't be shy! Very Happy

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Zippo wrote:

old europe

Quote:
does this look like the "top section almost entirely disintegrates, before the lower section begins to collapse"?

Why watch the video, when we can see each frame at a time ?

Here's the proof :

South Tower Collapse Video Frames
Video Evidence of the South Tower Collapse

Check Mate! ?
Whaddya say?
Come on, don't be shy!

From your source:

Quote:

And for that matter, what could possibly cause the top section to almost entirely disintegrate, before the lower section begins to collapse?

Nice piece of text, but not what we can see in the video (or in the stills, for that matter). What can be seen is: upper section falling (in one piece), hitting the lower levels. Causing them to collapse as well. Upper section disintegrates upon hitting the lower levels.

Should it not?

Not according to your source, I know:

Quote:

It is clear that that the top section itself must be disintegrating. Otherwise the top section would have extended far into parts of the building that are clearly as yet unaffected by the collapse.

Maybe you can explain this to me? The upper section is supposed to come down all the way to the ground in one piece, while the lower levels move out of its way without resistance?

Didn't you say that the lower levels have supported the upper part for 30 years, and that they should have constituted some significant resistance (1 second per floor, or something)?

And now you are acting surprised that the upper section disintegrated gradually (as seen in the video as well as in the video stills) upon coming down on the levels below?

You're trying to have it both ways. Again.

"The lower levels should have withstood the force at least 1 second per level".

- and, at the same time -

"The top section would have extended far into parts of the building that are clearly as yet unaffected by the collapse. They could never have withstood the force of the combined 35 floor section."

So, which one is it, Zippo?

0 Replies

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