Barack Obama, a man of tact and diplomacy.

Well, he didn't quote him at all, he paraphrased him.

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FreeDuck wrote:

Well, he didn't quote him at all, he paraphrased him.

Obama said, "when he [Bush] says" and then stated something that Bush hadn't said. Had Bush actually said what Obama said he did, it would have contained an element of stupidity that wasn't in what Bush actually said. This is lying. Do you really want to spend your time trying to make lying seem alright?

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Brandon, do you or do you not agree that up until that speech, racism and poverty, especially in tandem, have not been something Bush has talked about much?

As a basis of comparison, nimh's search with "stem cell" instead yields 116 results (vs. 9, including references to Africa, statements from others that include reference to Bush, references to long-past racism as opposed to current problems [Hank Aaron], etc.):

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=stem+cell+bush+site%3Awhitehouse.gov&btnG=Search

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Brandon9000 wrote:

FreeDuck wrote:
Well, he didn't quote him at all, he paraphrased him.

Obama said, "when he [Bush] says" and then stated something that Bush hadn't said. Had Bush actually said what Obama said he did, it would have contained an element of stupidity that wasn't in what Bush actually said. This is lying. Do you really want to spend your time trying to make lying seem alright?

Do you really want to spend time arguing about the difference between paraphrasing and quoting? Do you really want to waste several pages of good topic trying to prove that Obama is a liar because something he said off the cuff is not technically completely accurate, all the while ignoring what he's actually saying -- that we should give GB the benefit of the doubt?

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sozobe wrote:

Brandon, do you or do you not agree that up until that speech, racism and poverty, especially in tandem, have not been something Bush has talked about much?

As a basis of comparison, nimh's search with "stem cell" instead yields 116 results (vs. 9, including references to Africa, statements from others that include reference to Bush, references to long-past racism as opposed to current problems [Hank Aaron], etc.):

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=stem+cell+bush+site%3Awhitehouse.gov&btnG=Search

Soz, the point being that Obama could have made that point without mischaracterizing what Bush said, which he probably did solely in an effort to score cheap political points. As it is, everyone reading the quote from Obama believed Bush said something he did not in fact say.

To quote gus: "Bush didn't actually say that, did he?" No gus, he didn't.

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FreeDuck wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Well, he didn't quote him at all, he paraphrased him.

Obama said, "when he [Bush] says" and then stated something that Bush hadn't said. Had Bush actually said what Obama said he did, it would have contained an element of stupidity that wasn't in what Bush actually said. This is lying. Do you really want to spend your time trying to make lying seem alright?

Do you really want to spend time arguing about the difference between paraphrasing and quoting? Do you really want to waste several pages of good topic trying to prove that Obama is a liar because something he said off the cuff is not technically completely accurate, all the while ignoring what he's actually saying -- that we should give GB the benefit of the doubt?

I want to call people on blackening the president's image by means of lying, and Obama lied. He misquoted Bush and his version contained an element of stupidity not in what the president had actually said. A liar is a liar is a liar, and Obama is a liar.

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FreeDuck wrote:

There's paraphrasing and then there is directly quoting. I suppose it's just enough for you to get hung up on.

Yup. Apparently.

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nimh wrote:

FreeDuck wrote:
There's paraphrasing and then there is directly quoting. I suppose it's just enough for you to get hung up on.

Yup. Apparently.

Paraphrasing in such a way as to introduce an element of unworthiness not present in the person's actual words isn't that good either.

Go ahead and twist words around, and use sophistry to defend lying. It reflects a lot of credit on you, I'm sure. As for me, I'd rather tell the truth.

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When people said that the mayor of New Orleans blamed Bush for the flooding, did the mayor actually ever say that? Did you correct those people and accuse them of lying?

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Hey, you're trying to pull one over on us. We know the mayor did not blame Bush for the flooding. The people who blamed Bush for the flooding all post here on a2k. :wink:

(Alright, lighten up, it's just a joke. I'm a clown, remember?)

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Thanks CR, I was beginning to wonder about us.

<smooch>

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This is too ******* funny, the right lecturing us on "mischaracterizing" what the lying liars who lie say. Anyone remember the term "swift-boated" or all the smears on Cindy Sheehan or anyone else who disagrees with the Bush crime family?

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FreeDuck wrote:

When people said that the mayor of New Orleans blamed Bush for the flooding, did the mayor actually ever say that? Did you correct those people and accuse them of lying?

I didn't hear the quotation, and hearing it, I wouldn't know if it was true or not. But I would always say something if a person misquoted someone else with a version that contained unworthy elements not in the original.

What's your point, that lying is a valid means of political discourse?

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Chrissee wrote:

This is too **** funny, the right lecturing us on "mischaracterizing" what the lying liars who lie say. Anyone remember the term "swift-boated" or all the smears on Cindy Sheehan or anyone else who disagrees with the Bush crime family?

Even assuming that someone on the right lied in some set of circumstances, it doesn't alter the fact that Obama is lying here. Did you think it did???

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Brandon9000 wrote:

Chrissee wrote:
This is too **** funny, the right lecturing us on "mischaracterizing" what the lying liars who lie say. Anyone remember the term "swift-boated" or all the smears on Cindy Sheehan or anyone else who disagrees with the Bush crime family?

Even assuming that someone on the right lied in some set of circumstances, it doesn't alter the fact that Obama is lying here. Did you think it did???

No one has established that Obama lied. Taken into account the totality of what Bush has said and is, Obama's statement was accurate.

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Chrissee wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
Chrissee wrote:
This is too **** funny, the right lecturing us on "mischaracterizing" what the lying liars who lie say. Anyone remember the term "swift-boated" or all the smears on Cindy Sheehan or anyone else who disagrees with the Bush crime family?

Even assuming that someone on the right lied in some set of circumstances, it doesn't alter the fact that Obama is lying here. Did you think it did???

No one has established that Obama lied. Taken into account the totality of what Bush has said and is, Obama's statement was accurate.

So, if you say, "The sky is blue today," and I quote you as having said, "Conservatives should be sent to labor camps," I can claim it's accurate taking into account the totality of what you are and have said? Baloney. Either you quote someone accurately, or you don't.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

So, if you say, "The sky is blue today," and I quote you as having said, "Conservatives should be sent to labor camps," I can claim it's accurate taking into account the totality of what you are and have said? Baloney. Either you quote someone accurately, or you don't.

Actually, the parallel would be if you had said, "Chrissee finally said that the sky can be blue".

(I mean, if youre gonna be anal about this subject, at least keep your parallels out of leftfield.)

Personally, I wouldnt have a problem with you saying that. I'm assuming you consider Chrissee to rarely see things for how they obviously are, so when she finally does (hey, she thinks the sky is blue too!), an observation on your part that "she finally said the sky can be blue as well" sounds wholly unremarkable to me.

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nimh wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
So, if you say, "The sky is blue today," and I quote you as having said, "Conservatives should be sent to labor camps," I can claim it's accurate taking into account the totality of what you are and have said? Baloney. Either you quote someone accurately, or you don't.

Actually, the parallel would be if you had said, "Chrissee finally said that the sky can be blue".

(I mean, if youre gonna be anal about this subject, at least keep your parallels out of the leftfield.)

Personally, I wouldnt have a problem with you saying that. I'm assuming you consider Chrissee to rarely see things for how they obviously are, so when she finally does (hey, she thinks the sky is blue too!), an observation on your part that "she finally said the sky can be blue as well" sounds wholly unremarkable to me.

No matter what you say, you can't justify attacking an opponent by misquoting. It's sad that you want to.

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If you said that "Chrissee finally said the sky can be blue as well", in that hypothetical dialogue, I wouldnt consider you to be LYING, and thats what you're explicitly accusing Obama of. For someone who insists on such precision on others' part, making that accusation is quite the slip. Apparently the difference between paraphrasing and quoting is too difficult to understand here.

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Lemme get this straight. Tico and Brandon (one of whom says he likes Obama, but this has him really put off) are taking Obama to task? And the incident in question is Obama making a remark that maybe we should give Bush credit for actually awakening to racism and poverty in the US, even though he assigns Karl Rove to head the reconstruction of N.O.?

Are you two guys on frikkin' crack? When do you ever hold Bush, Rove, Rumsfeld and Cheney to this same oh-so-holy standard of rigorous truth-telling? Have you ever noticed that bunch parsing words to make political hay? Did you get your indignant panties all in a bunch if you ever did notice them doing it? And no, I'm not agreeing that Barack Obama lied - not even close. You'd have to be hopelessly ignorant or hopelessly deceitful to try to interpret his point as anything but accurate about Bush and his track record and words about poverty and racism - there isn't any track record! So saying "finally" was exactly apropos.

You nincompoops can't ever see anything that Bush does in a negative light, so spare me all that 'gee-I'wanna-like-that-Obama-but-this-has-gone-too-far' pap!

Whattacrockacrap!!

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Barack Obama, a man of tact and diplomacy.

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