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College swimmers, volleyball players sue NCAA over transgender policies

 
 
ntprof
 
Reply Sun 17 Mar, 2024 10:55 am
Wow. A lot going on here.

I was surprised to find little related info after searching A2K. (Lia Thomas, William Thomas, Riley Gaines, etc.)

What say you? Should biological males compete against biological females in HS, college, pro sports? Share locker rooms?
 
Mame
 
  3  
Reply Sun 17 Mar, 2024 11:08 am
@ntprof,
Of course not!
ntprof
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Mar, 2024 11:13 am
@Mame,
Sorry - forgot to include the link.

https://apnews.com/article/transgender-lia-thomas-swimming-lawsuit-b7df63108a03100f36b2e4364d585cdc
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Mar, 2024 12:58 pm
I don't know what the answer is. The best I can come up with a two tier system - an upper performing group of women and a lower group.

Another thing that is important to remove the overblown objective of winning as an important or only parameter of being in sports.

The argument I see in the argument regarding trans women in sports almost seems that trans athletes are stealing other women's "right to win". And there is no right to win at anything. The only guarantee is a right to participate. Which trans athletes have also.
thack45
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Mar, 2024 01:22 pm
@ntprof,
Quote:
A lot going on here
I mean, I guess. But it's the same story that's been "going on" for what, a decade now?

Quote:
I was surprised to find little related info after searching A2K
This isn't surprising to me in the least. I think most people here can intuit the impact of less than one one-hundreth of one percent. Did you know that last year in the US, the number of trans athletes that completed in NCAA sports is equal to the average number of people who died of gun violence here, every 3.5 hours?

So people can have their feelings about it. They can get performative with it, make laws for and against it – or as is most often the case – make lucrative careers as content creators or Congressional Republicans out of it. And yes, occasionally attempts at inclusion are going to be imperfect or just plain wrong, and somebody might get screwed over (is this all sounding familiar yet?). But again, when I consider the numbers and real-world outcome, I just can't give this stuff much bandwidth
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Mar, 2024 02:30 pm
I don't think there's a good answer to this, certainly not coming from me. But I remember when the possible presence of homosexuals in the military struck fear in tough guy Marines and no one could conceive of women in combat units. So society can change over time. I suspect the motives of those making this into a big controversy.
Mame
 
  3  
Reply Sun 17 Mar, 2024 04:06 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
bobsal u1553115 wrote:

I don't know what the answer is. The best I can come up with a two tier system - an upper performing group of women and a lower group.


I think there should be 3 groups: men, women, and other (or trans or whatever)

No reason why everyone shouldn't be able to compete, but I do believe one group (trans) should not be able to prevail in competing in the female category when all is not equal.
ntprof
 
  0  
Reply Sun 17 Mar, 2024 04:52 pm
@Mame,
I agree with hightor in that there is no good answer.

Mame - your answer makes sense on merit, however what should be done for those who bounce back & forth from male to female or trans - non trans?

For instance: If a "separate group" is formed by the NCAA, what will be the criteria for that group? As it is: Thomas is accused of maintaining male body components and still 'dating' women in the carnal sense, while also maintaining trans-status. Does this conclude that Thomas could be trans or non-trans and back within hours? How would this work for swim-meets and tournaments? Could it be a start-time decision?

I guess it would make for interesting TV ratings.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Mar, 2024 05:21 pm
@Mame,
What about female to male trans - they would be arguably unable to perform as a well as a male to trans?

It's all made worse by the insistence that we Americans have to be no.1 no matter what. What ever happened to the supposed goal of athletes competing mainly with themselves over their own performance?
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Mar, 2024 05:23 pm
@hightor,
My thought mainly is allow it to seek its own level. This is sports not rocket science.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Mar, 2024 06:40 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
I suggest a massive investment in personal privacy infrastructure. No more communal showers, cave-like changing rooms, walls of stalls, and ranks of bowls and urinals! No one should be forced nor expected to exercise bodily functions and perform routine acts of hygiene in public!! We demand exclusive individual facilities for all!!!
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Mar, 2024 05:45 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
Not to say it doesn't happen, but I've never heard of a female calling themselves a trans-man. They're usually satisfied with "lesbian". And why would a lesbian be able to perform as ably as a biological male? If I were a competing lesbian, I'd stick with the female category.
jespah
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Mar, 2024 07:03 pm
@Mame,
I have. This person is taking hormone therapy IIRC.
0 Replies
 
ntprof
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 Mar, 2024 05:40 am
@bobsal u1553115,
Many could give a rip about rocket science, but live and die with sports. Not saying they're right - rocket science is more to my liking.

But you've got my interest; explain 'seeking it's own' level pls.
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Mar, 2024 07:39 am
@ntprof,
Maybe without official interference, organized amateur athletics will find it's own accommodation of all participants. Groups of kids do this every day. Like accommodating individuals with special needs into regular team mates.

I don't know what the big answer is: but everyone needs accommodating.

Perhaps it's as simple as weighting results of performance, sort of the equivalent of a handicap in golfing. One important thing would be to kill the meme of a male to female trans just to win or to have access to a women's locker room. Get all the MAGAs with dirty minds and no intent to compete or no past in student athletics to shut up and stand back.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Mar, 2024 08:52 am
@bobsal u1553115,
I still think that private facilities instead of communal locker rooms might be part of an eventual detente.
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Mar, 2024 10:13 am
@bobsal u1553115,
bobsal u1553115 wrote:

but everyone needs accommodating.


Completely disagree with this; this thinking is, in some part, at the root of some of our problems. No, not everybody should be accommodated. A failed grade is a failed grade. We should accommodate them and pass them? Throwing a tantrum in a restaurant should get you a free meal? No. You should be allowed to punch a flight attendant? No.
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Mar, 2024 02:09 pm
@Mame,
I try to accommodate everyone, even Canadians.
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Mar, 2024 02:16 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
Mighty big of ya
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Mar, 2024 02:35 pm
@Mame,
Thankyou. I am mighty fond of our neighbors up north. They've proven their friendship and dependability over and over. If I couldn't be in the US, I'd gladly be Canadian, I'd love to live in Montreal or Toronto.

I know this: Canadian peace keeping troops are tough and they keep the peace even better than the French. No joke. The French peace keepers are VERY tough.

Canadian armed forces are easily on a par with US troops. Maybe even better.

One thing I will always love the Canadians for: when our teams play Canadian teams, the Canadians actually sing the US anthem. I know more of the Canadian anthem than most of the US, and I only know "Oh Canada". The most incredible thing was at an event during the Bush years during a game the power went off during the Anthems and the Canadians sang the Star Spangled Banner acapela in the light of emergency lighting.

That same weekend in Detroit, American boo'd the Canadian anthem at another sporting event. I was working in Montreal doing some consulting work for the Pomeroy company in Ville d' Anjou that following week. We'd go out for dinner and drinks. The place we went I had been to enough over a year or so of two weeks in Montreal and one week home, that I was kind of a regular. It was the only time I ever had offers of a fist fight. It was bad enough one evening the guys I was with surrounded me and got me out of the place before I got a beat down. Other than that, I found even in Montreal, most Canadians are friendlier than "Americans".

Poutine, I'm not fond of, the hamburger which came with 'sauce d'Americanaise (Cheese Whiz) was not a favorite but the charcuterie places were great. There are an amazing selection of great Italian places. Yep. I love Montreal and I love Canada.
 

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