Re: Joe
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:That's what happens when you push my buttons, a 76 year old woman who has been disabled since age 36 from an injury.
I'll bear that in mind.
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:You have no idea how hard getting around is for some people. That's why I called you elitist. You haven't walked in my shoes.
I haven't walked in many other peoples' shoes -- at least not since the restraining order.
The real answer is that both Joe and BBB are correct. It just isn't a pretty picture.
Higher gas prices are, without a doubt, going to be beneficial in the long run for the US, especailly in terms of city planning. As the costs of goods change, the planning changes accordingly and hopefully we can see the end of the massively destructive, inefficient urban sprawl.
The problem is that this transition, like all major changes, is going to come at the expense of a lot of pain for a lot of people. While I bike to work, everyone doesn't have that option. While I take a bus around town, everyone doesn't have that option. Because they are far to heavily invested in the Old Dynamic of US life, many people are stuck relying on Automobiles for EVERY piece of transportation that they have to do.
We will always need some sort of personal transportation here in the US, I think. Some sort of cargo transport. I think the best model is to have a family with one truck, several bikes and some Bus Passes. Use the correct mode in the correct circumstance and you could save beaucoups $$$ and get fit at the same time.
Joe isn't being elitist, he's being realistic. The paradigm is changing here in the US, while we watch. Cheap gas is done. It will never return. It's better to start planning for it now than to be caught in the pinch later, on both a personal and a city level.
It's 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other; the change will, without a doubt, be beneficial in the long-run; in the short run, many, many low-income families are going to be squeezed at a time when there just isn't much squeeze left. But, hasn't this always been the model of change for society?
Now, perhaps I can get my idea for a Slidewalk implemented if prices go up enough... that would solve a whole ton of problems at once!
Cycloptichorn
Gas is at $2.79 today. F*cking fabulous if you ask me.
Joe, I couldn't agree with you less.
joefromchicago wrote:
Hurray for high oil prices! Think of some of the benefits:
More people will want to buy fuel-efficient or hybrid cars, forcing the car-makers to shift their priorities to these vehicles.
- It's too expensive to make them. Which is why not all cars are hyprids. The price of cars will go up and people will bitch then too.
joefromchicago wrote:
Others will look at alternatives to cars, such as bikes, or adopt more efficient transportation options, like car-sharing or car-pooling.
Public transportaion sucks here. Bikes are not options in Michigan. And there aren't many car pool parking lots around here.
joefromchicago wrote:
More people will switch to public transportation, which will then receive more attention and funding from lawmakers.
Nope. I wouldn't ride the bus system here if my life depended on it. 2 hours riding around to get to work? I don't think so.
joefromchicago wrote:
People will take a second look at their long commutes, and choose housing accordingly. That will curb urban sprawl and revitalize cities and inner-ring suburbs.[/list]
Some of us don't have the choice. You can't jsut pick up and move because you or your spouse get a job that's more than a few miles from the house.
Bella Dea wrote:
- It's too expensive to make them. Which is why not all cars are hyprids.
It's not really. The demand in the US for hybrids is still relatively low, though you wouldn't know it by the wait lists. The companies only make a small fixed amount for US sales because of this. Increased demand would bring increased supply. Companies will start competing for hybrid market share which will bring the prices down. If consumers had been demanding fuel efficiency for the last 10 years then we wouldn't have vehicles for sale that get 11 miles to the gallon. Or at least, nobody would be buying them. But we do and they are.
Your other points are well taken but I have to aggree with Cyclop that it's a necessary evil.
I'm not changing the subject, just pointing out (again) that there are plenty of industries in which the government gets involved for the good of the people. Whether it's tarriffs or farm subsidies, the government does get involved to control prices and consumption.
In this case, we have higher prices AND government subsidies being paid to oil companies that are already making record breaking profits.
So, is that a good thing too?
I would hope they could do away with those subsidies. That's just assinine.
No changing it, FD. It was just signed.
Son of a bitch! Damn liberal media doesn't put something like that on the front page?
Sorry, but the gall never ceases to amaze me.
Not to butt in, but I really disagree with what you've written here.
Bella Dea wrote:Joe, I couldn't agree with you less.
joefromchicago wrote:
Hurray for high oil prices! Think of some of the benefits:
More people will want to buy fuel-efficient or hybrid cars, forcing the car-makers to shift their priorities to these vehicles.
- It's too expensive to make them. Which is why not all cars are hyprids. The price of cars will go up and people will bitch then too.
This is just plain untrue. It isn't significantly more expensive to manufacture Hybrids than it is regular automobiles and certainly not more expensive than high-end vehicles. The Toyota Prius is a good place to start; $21k is not overly expensive for a vehicle with its features and 60 mpg. At today's gas prices (which are only gonna go up more) the Prius looks mighty attractive, and as more and more vehicles made by the big Auto companies are Hybrids the price will go down even further; innovation and competition will drive the market just as they always have.
joefromchicago wrote:
Others will look at alternatives to cars, such as bikes, or adopt more efficient transportation options, like car-sharing or car-pooling.
Public transportaion sucks here. Bikes are not options in Michigan. And there aren't many car pool parking lots around here.
Once again, I disagree. Bicycles are a very valid option in Michigan. Many people even ride during the winter - it just takes some getting used to, and obviously you can't ride during the roughest weather. Try starting here to find a group of bikers who can help a transition to a self-powered travel lifestyle.
Public transportation will increase as people begin to rely upon it in increasing numbers. If enough people want better bus systems, they will vote them in and pay for them. This will undoubtedly be one of the effects of higher gas prices. I also expect to see a resurgence of commuter rail in our cities, and hopefully here in Texas we can have some high-speed rail before too long.
joefromchicago wrote:
More people will switch to public transportation, which will then receive more attention and funding from lawmakers.
Nope. I wouldn't ride the bus system here if my life depended on it. 2 hours riding around to get to work? I don't think so.
You wouldn't take a two hour round trip if your life depended on it? This speaks more of laziness and slavery to convienence than it does reality. The fact is that if you couldn't afford to drive, you would take that two-hour round trip every day. You wouldn't have a choice. And you would vote to have more busses in the future, so that trip drops to One hour round trip. The consequences of higher gas prices will take time to make themselves known.
joefromchicago wrote:
People will take a second look at their long commutes, and choose housing accordingly. That will curb urban sprawl and revitalize cities and inner-ring suburbs.[/list]
Some of us don't have the choice. You can't jsut pick up and move because you or your spouse get a job that's more than a few miles from the house.
Really? Why not? You can't move houses? Since when?
Also, I believe Joe's comment here is more suited to future city planning and urban renewal than it is the 'immediate' effect upon people who are currently reliant on the Old paradigm for travel in the US.
You people need to face facts here; owning a car (and heaven forbid your family has three or four like most suburban families) not only is going to bankrupt you in gas fees, it is destructive to our environment and encourages idiotic city planning; which hurts us all.
Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn wrote:Not to butt in...
Please do. You just saved me the effort of replying to
Bella Dea's post. I agree with everything you said.
Let me clarify my initial remarks: I was not telling people that they
must take the bus or ride a bike from now on. I was merely stating that, with higher gas prices, I expect that Americans will start to reevaluate their transportation options, and I am hopeful that the choices that we make in the future will be better than the ones that cheap gas has allowed us to make in the past.
Cycloptichorn wrote:Not to butt in, but I really disagree with what you've written here.
Also, I believe Joe's comment here is more suited to future city planning and urban renewal than it is the 'immediate' effect upon people who are currently reliant on the Old paradigm for travel in the US.[/color]
Please butt in. :wink: I am always willing to consider different possibilities. There is NO way I am riding my bike through 1 foot of snow. They do not plow the streets here sometimes until afternoon, let alone the sidewalks. I don't think so.
It must be nice to have the income to literally move your house. Or move each time you get a new job.
The public transportation system is awful. And I'd rather walk. It's dirty and some times, at night, unsafe.
I can see Joe's and your point about the future. But until I am forced to take a bus through a bad neighborhood alone at night, I am going to drive my car.
joefromchicago wrote:Cycloptichorn wrote:Not to butt in...
Please do. You just saved me the effort of replying to
Bella Dea's post. I agree with everything you said.
Let me clarify my initial remarks: I was not telling people that they
must take the bus or ride a bike from now on. I was merely stating that, with higher gas prices, I expect that Americans will start to reevaluate their transportation options, and I am hopeful that the choices that we make in the future will be better than the ones that cheap gas has allowed us to make in the past.
I know. I don't drive that far to work right now. I don't drive that far anywhere and you're right. I'm lazy. If the option to buy a hybrid that wasn't ugly was out there, I'd do it.
Bella Dea wrote:If the option to buy a hybrid that wasn't ugly was out there, I'd do it.
Accord Hybrid
Civic Hybrid
Highlander Hybrid (for all of you who just can't give up your SUV)
I saw a hybrid just the other day, and I only knew it was a hybrid because of the badge on the trunk. It was a Honda Civic. Looked like a "regular" car.
Yeah, it is a regular car. It's just their civic with a hybrid engine. It's on my wish list.
Accord is too long, don't like it at all.
Civic is ok but starts at $20,000 (4 cylinder). With automatic trans, it's $21,450 (not including tax, title and licenses). Which is $8,000 more than I paid for my brand new car that is a 6 cylinder. So, it is too expensive for me.
Really don't like the SUV. Looks like an oversized station wagon.
Ok, this might be a stupid question but because I honestly don't know, I am going to ask.
Why did the hurricane force gas prices up?
Because, from what I understand, there are a lot of offshore oil rigs that were in the direct path of Katrina that had to be abandoned temporarily. Thus we lost some production.
