What Noble Cause Did Casey Sheehan Die For?

Fer chrissake, you quote me making the distinction in the post about the Mexican War. I can only conclude you're dense or don't want to see the distinction. I have nothing further i'm willing to argue with you about, go babble to someone else.

no. As I said if you don't want to carry on the discution you don't have to, but this will be my final babble directed at you whether you choose to suggest I a fool after or not.

The distiction was not made clear, not clear enough for confused and naive old me anyway. If you had said yes what he did was noble, but the war wasn't then a noble cause I wouldn't keep the argument going, there would be no point. I wrote many times "is it noble to die for the live of another" (or words to that effect). Not once did you say "yes, but..."

You said that's not the argument, the argument is whether the war was right or not. And as I've said, the issues of right or wrong in the war does not matter.

What noble cause did he die for? I said to save the lives of others. You have said that that is not the cause he die for, he died for a war that shouldn't of been happerning. I agree that the war shouldn't be happerning, I agree that the war is not a noble cause to die for, if you read my first post you will see that I clearly state my views on the war and the main argument used to justify it. I then suggested chaning your view of the cause. The topic asks what noble cause Sheehan died and I tried to supply one.



Does not make any reference to Sheehan's death. And it seems to be more about the rights and wrongs of the war than a "clear" distiction.

I'm not defending bush, or trying to avoid the nature of the war. I am saying that there is a noble cause for Sheehan death no matter what anybodies' thoughts on Bush or the war are.

There is, unfortunately in my opinion, a long history of "ennobling" warriors who die at the fate of arms. I find this rather sickening frankly. A man/woman dies say, as Ira Hayes did in the gutter of a Phoenix street following years of alcohol abuse. Yet, had he fallen shortly after being pictured raising the flag at Iwo Jima he would have been "noble" rather than just another drunk indian? Men live and die quite routinely and from many causes, what makes the "nobleness" of their lives is how they lived.

This thread is asking whether Casey Sheehan died for a noble cause. It doesn't ask if he was a hero, or courageous.

Those trying to define courage, nobility or heroism should start another thread. It would make interesting reading. It isn't relevant on this thread.

Well, after several pages of asking, I guess you won't mind several pages in answer.


Text Of Bush Speech

May 1, 2003

(AP) Remarks by President Bush announcing the end of major combat operations in Iraq Thursday evening from the deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln:

Admiral Kelly, Captain Card, officers and sailors of the USS Abraham Lincoln, my fellow Americans: Major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In the Battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed. And now our coalition is engaged in securing and reconstructing that country.

In this battle, we have fought for the cause of liberty, and for the peace of the world.Because of you, our nation is more secure. Because of you, the tyrant has fallen, and Iraq is free. Today, we have the greater power to free a nation by breaking a dangerous and aggressive regime.The Battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11th, 2001, and still goes on.The liberation of Iraq is a crucial advance in the campaign against terror. We have removed an ally of al-Qaida, and cut off a source of terrorist funding. And this much is certain: No terrorist network will gain weapons of mass destruction from the Iraqi regime, because the regime is no more. Any person, organization, or government that supports, protects, or harbors terrorists is complicit in the murder of the innocent, and equally guilty of terrorist crimes.

Any outlaw regime that has ties to terrorist groups, and seeks or possesses weapons of mass destruction, is a grave danger to the civilized world, and will be confronted.

And anyone in the world, including the Arab world, who works and sacrifices for freedom has a loyal friend in the United States of America.

Another answer.

He was standing by the oath he took when he chose to join the Armed Services of the United States.

He offered himself in that service and answered when he was called. He did what he swore he would do. That is eloquent and noble.

I know war isn't eloquent, but the dignity of those men and women is to me. Cindy Sheehan has shattered that for her son.

The trite Democrat PR copy phrase "sacrificed"...demeans the will and honor of the people who willingly take and fulfil that oath.

Had Ira Hayes fallen during his valiant service, he would have been noble. The fact that his life took a turn later and became what would be considered unnoble does not take away the fact that he was noble at the time of his service. It is sad that his noble service would be replaced because he later was a different man. The noble things he did are still noble. Although he died in a way not considered noble, he was still a noble man who became something else because of his past noble service and the fact that he could not live with losing so many of his noble comrades. A man can die a noble death even if the reason for his death is not noble. IMO

Who speaks for Casey Sheehan?
DAVID GELERNTER
THIS NATION respects and admires Cindy Sheehan on account of her son's heroic death in Iraq. But the Cindy Sheehan spectacle has been another thing altogether. It's on hold now; perhaps it's over. But the protest echoes.

It's tragic that we don't seem to remember President Lincoln's words at Gettysburg, and Sheehan and her supporters don't either: "The world will little note nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here." In the shadow of heroic deeds, words don't count for much. The Gettysburg Address is one of the rare exceptions.

Casey Sheehan's deeds were heroic. By laying down his life for this nation, he delivered the kind of message that is written in blood, that lives forever. Why on Earth would a loving mother choose to refocus the nation's attention onto her words and away from his deeds?

And what was Casey Sheehan's message? It had nothing to do with President Bush. It didn't even have to do with the war, necessarily. It said something much simpler: "I love my country."

His mother seemed intent on drowning out that message. At times she contradicted it. Some news stories about the mother's protest didn't even mention the son's name. In most, he passed through like a butterfly that is gone before you really see it. "Spc. Casey Sheehan, who was killed in an ambush in Baghdad last year…. " That's all you got; then it was right back to Cindy Sheehan's latest pronouncements.

The real story is brief enough.

Did he intend to say, "I love my country?" Or was he tricked into saying it?

And his mother's message? The FrontPage website noted her comments to a reporter. "The biggest terrorist is George W. Bush." And: "We are waging nuclear war in Iraq, we have contaminated the entire country." And most important: "America has been killing people on this continent since it started. This country is not worth dying for."

I'd love to know what Casey Sheehan thought about this nation on the day he died. The evidence suggests that he would not have agreed with his mother's violently anti-American ideas Why don't some of the reporters who spent weeks hanging on Cindy Sheehan's every word tell us what our soldiers are thinking?

." Where do our soldiers stand? They have as much right to be heard as Cindy Sheehan.

As for her, she wasn't content with addressing the country; she insisted on addressing the president. But his duty is to act on behalf of the nation, to thank her and console her, not to attend lectures on America's sin. He did meet her, and no doubt he spoke to her in the vein of Lincoln in his famous letter to Mrs. Lydia Bixby, who lost two sons in the Civil War. "I pray that our heavenly Father may assuage the anguish of your bereavement, and leave you only the cherished memory of the loved and lost, and the solemn pride that must be yours to have laid so costly a sacrifice upon the altar of freedom."

The news media have done Cindy Sheehan no favor. They only let a grief-stricken mother embarrass herself; it has been painful to watch. It's past time to shift the spotlight back to her brave son and his surviving comrades, where it has always belonged.

Full text: Bush's Iraq speech


Following is the full text of the speech made by US President George W Bush on the first anniversary of the US handover of power to Iraqis.
Thank you and good evening. I am pleased to visit Fort Bragg - "Home of the Airborne and Special Operations Forces." It is an honour to speak before you tonight.

My greatest responsibility as president is to protect the American people, and that is your calling as well.

I thank you for your service, your courage and your sacrifice. I thank your families, who support you in your vital work.

The soldiers and families of Fort Bragg have contributed mightily to our efforts to secure our country and promote peace. America is grateful - and so is your commander-in-chief.

The troops here and across the world are fighting a global war on terror.

This war reached our shores on 11 September 2001.

The terrorists who attacked us - and the terrorists we face - murder in the name of a totalitarian ideology that hates freedom, rejects tolerance, and despises all dissent.

Their aim is to remake the Middle East in their own grim image of tyranny and oppression - by toppling governments, driving us out of the region, and exporting terror.

To achieve these aims, they have continued to kill - in Madrid, Istanbul, Jakarta, Casablanca, Riyadh, Bali, and elsewhere.

The terrorists believe that free societies are essentially corrupt and decadent, and with a few hard blows they can force us to retreat. They are mistaken.

After 11 September, I made a commitment to the American people: this nation will not wait to be attacked again. We will take the fight to the enemy. We will defend our freedom.

Iraq is the latest battlefield in this war.

'Mission clear

Many terrorists who kill innocent men, women, and children on the streets of Baghdad are followers of the same murderous ideology that took the lives of our citizens in New York, Washington, and Pennsylvania.

There is only one course of action against them: to defeat them abroad before they attack us at home.

The commander in charge of coalition operations in Iraq - who is also senior commander at this base - General John Vines, put it well the other day.

He said: "We either deal with terrorism and this extremism abroad, or we deal with it when it comes to us."

Our mission in Iraq is clear. We are hunting down the terrorists. We are helping Iraqis build a free nation that is an ally in the war on terror.

We are advancing freedom in the broader Middle East. We are removing a source of violence and instability - and laying the foundation of peace for our children and our grandchildren.

Sacrifice

The work in Iraq is difficult and dangerous. Like most Americans, I see the images of violence and bloodshed.

Every picture is horrifying - and the suffering is real. Amid all this violence, I know Americans ask the question: is the sacrifice worth it?

It is worth it, and it is vital to the future security of our country. And tonight I will explain the reasons why.

Some of the violence you see in Iraq is being carried out by ruthless killers who are converging on Iraq to fight the advance of peace and freedom.

Our military reports that we have killed or captured hundreds of foreign fighters in Iraq who have come from Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Egypt, Sudan, Yemen, Libya and other nations.

'Hateful ideology'

They are making common cause with criminal elements, Iraqi insurgents, and remnants of Saddam Hussein's regime who want to restore the old order.

They fight because they know that the survival of their hateful ideology is at stake.

They know that as freedom takes root in Iraq, it will inspire millions across the Middle East to claim their liberty as well.

And when the Middle East grows in democracy, prosperity, and hope, the terrorists will lose their sponsors, lose their recruits, and lose their hopes for turning that region into a base for attacks on America and our allies around the world.

Some wonder whether Iraq is a central front in the war on terror.

Among the terrorists, there is no debate. Hear the words of Osama Bin Laden: "This Third World War ... is raging" in Iraq. "The whole world is watching this war." He says it will end in "victory and glory or misery and humiliation".

The terrorists know that the outcome will leave them emboldened, or defeated. So, they are waging a campaign of murder and destruction. And there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to take.

We see the nature of the enemy in terrorists who exploded car bombs along a busy shopping street in Baghdad - including one outside a mosque.

We see the nature of the enemy in terrorists who sent a suicide bomber to a teaching hospital in Mosul.

And we see the nature of the enemy in terrorists who behead civilian hostages and broadcast their atrocities for the world to see.

'Terrorists failing'

These are savage acts of violence - but they have not brought the terrorists any closer to achieving their strategic objectives.

The terrorists - both foreign and Iraqi - failed to stop the transfer of sovereignty.

They failed to break our coalition and force a mass withdrawal by our allies. They failed to incite an Iraqi civil war. They failed to prevent free elections. They failed to stop the formation of a democratic Iraqi government that represents all of Iraq's diverse population.

And they failed to stop Iraqis from signing up in large numbers with the police forces and the army to defend their new democracy.

The lesson of this experience is clear: the terrorists can kill the innocent - but they cannot stop the advance of freedom.

The only way our enemies can succeed is if we forget the lessons of 11 September 11 if we abandon the Iraqi people to men like Zarqawi and if we yield the future of the Middle East to men like Bin Laden.

For the sake of our nation's security, this will not happen on my watch.

'Significant progress'

A little over a year ago, I spoke to the nation and described our coalition's goal in Iraq.

I said that America's mission in Iraq is to defeat an enemy and give strength to a friend - a free, representative government that is an ally in the war on terror, and a beacon of hope in a part of the world that is desperate for reform.[/b]

I outlined the steps we would take to achieve this goal: we would hand authority over to a sovereign Iraqi government... we would help Iraqis hold free elections by January 2005 ... we would continue helping Iraqis rebuild their nation's infrastructure and economy ... we would encourage more international support for Iraq's democratic transition ... and we would enable Iraqis to take increasing responsibility for their own security and stability.

In the past year, we have made significant progress:

One year ago today, we restored sovereignty to the Iraqi people.

In January 2005, more than eight million Iraqi men and women voted in elections that were free and fair - and took place on time.

We continued our efforts to help them rebuild their country. Rebuilding a country after three decades of tyranny is hard - and rebuilding while at war is even harder.

Our progress has been uneven - but progress is being made.

We are improving roads, and schools, and health clinics ... and working to improve basic services like sanitation, electricity, and water.

And together with our allies, we will help the new Iraqi government deliver a better life for its citizens.

In the past year, the international community has stepped forward with vital assistance. Some 30 nations have troops in Iraq, and many others are contributing non-military assistance.

Building Iraqi forces

The United Nations is in Iraq to help Iraqis write a constitution and conduct their next elections.

Thus far, some 40 countries and three international organizations have pledged about $34bn in assistance for Iraqi reconstruction.

More than 80 countries and international organisations recently came together in Brussels to co-ordinate their efforts to help Iraqis provide for their security and rebuild their country.

And next month, donor countries will meet in Jordan to support Iraqi reconstruction.

Whatever our differences in the past, the world understands that success in Iraq is critical to the security of all our nations.

As German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder said at the White House yesterday: "There can be no question a stable and democratic Iraq is in the vested interest of not just Germany, but also Europe."

Finally, we have continued our efforts to equip and train Iraqi security forces.

We have made gains in both the number and quality of those forces.

Today Iraq has more than 160,000 security forces trained and equipped for a variety of missions.

Iraqi forces have fought bravely - helping to capture terrorists and insurgents in Najaf, Samarra, Falluja, and Mosul.

And in the past month, Iraqi forces have led a major anti-terrorist campaign in Baghdad called Operation Lightning - which has led to the capture of hundreds of suspected insurgents.

Like free people everywhere, Iraqis want to be defended by their own countrymen - and we are helping Iraqis assume those duties.

Coalition strategy

The progress in the past year has been significant - and we have a clear path forward.

To complete the mission, we will continue to hunt down the terrorists and insurgents.

To complete the mission, we will prevent al-Qaeda and other foreign terrorists from turning Iraq into what Afghanistan was under the Taleban - a safe haven from which they could launch attacks on America and our friends.

And the best way to complete the mission is to help Iraqis build a free nation that can govern itself, sustain itself, and defend itself.

So our strategy going forward has both a military track and a political track.

The principal task of our military is to find and defeat the terrorists - and that is why we are on the offence. And as we pursue the terrorists, our military is helping to train Iraqi security forces so that they can defend their people and fight the enemy on their own.

Our strategy can be summed up this way: as the Iraqis stand up, we will stand down.

We have made progress - but we have a lot more work to do.

Today, Iraqi security forces are at different levels of readiness. Some are capable of taking on the terrorists and insurgents by themselves.

A larger number can plan and execute anti-terrorist operations with coalition support. The rest are forming and not yet ready to participate fully in security operations.

Our task is to make the Iraqi units fully capable and independent. We are building up Iraqi security forces as quickly as possible, so they can assume the lead in defeating the terrorists and insurgents.

Our coalition is devoting considerable resources and manpower to this critical task.

Thousands of coalition troops are involved in the training and equipping of Iraqi security forces.

Nato is establishing a military academy near Baghdad to train the next generation of Iraqi military leaders - and 17 nations are contributing troops to the Nato training mission.

New steps

Iraqi Army and Police are being trained by personnel from Italy, Germany, Ukraine, Turkey, Poland, Romania, Australia, and the United Kingdom.

Today dozens of nations are working toward a common objective: an Iraq that can defend itself, defeat its enemies, and secure its freedom.

To further prepare Iraqi forces to fight the enemy on their own, we are taking three new steps:

First, we are partnering coalition units with Iraqi units. These coalition-Iraqi teams are conducting operations together in the field. These combined operations are giving Iraqis a chance to experience how the most professional armed forces in the world operate in combat.

Second, we are embedding coalition "Transition Teams" inside Iraqi units. These teams are made up of coalition officers and non-commissioned officers who live, work, and fight together with their Iraqi comrades. Under US command, they are providing battlefield advice and assistance to Iraqi forces during combat operations. Between battles, they are assisting the Iraqis with important skills - such as urban combat, and intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance techniques.

Third, we are working with the Iraqi ministries of interior and defence to improve their capabilities to coordinate anti-terrorist operations. We are helping them develop command and control structures. We are also providing them with civilian and military leadership training, so Iraq's new leaders can more effectively manage their forces in the fight against terror.

The new Iraqi security forces are proving their courage every day. More than 2,000 members of the Iraqi security forces have given their lives in the line of duty.

Thousands more have stepped forward, and are now in training to serve their nation. With each engagement, Iraqi soldiers grow more battle-hardened, and their officers grow more experienced.

We have learned that Iraqis are courageous and that they need additional skills.

That is why a major part of our mission is to train them so they can do the fighting and our troops can come home.

No withdrawal deadline

I recognise that Americans want our troops to come home as quickly as possible.

So do I. Some contend that we should set a deadline for withdrawing US forces.

Let me explain why that would be a serious mistake.

Setting an artificial timetable would send the wrong message to the Iraqis - who need to know that America will not leave before the job is done.

It would send the wrong message to our troops - who need to know that we are serious about completing the mission they are risking their lives to achieve.

And it would send the wrong message to the enemy - who would know that all they have to do is to wait us out.

We will stay in Iraq as long as we are needed - and not a day longer.

Some Americans ask me, if completing the mission is so important, why don't you send more troops?

If our commanders on the ground say we need more troops, I will send them. But our commanders tell me they have the number of troops they need to do their job.

Sending more Americans would undermine our strategy of encouraging Iraqis to take the lead in this fight.

And sending more Americans would suggest that we intend to stay forever - when we are in fact working for the day when Iraq can defend itself and we can leave.

As we determine the right force level, our troops can know that I will continue to be guided by the advice that matters - the sober judgment of our military leaders.

Building 'new Iraq'

The other critical element of our strategy is to help ensure that the hopes Iraqis expressed at the polls in January are translated into a secure democracy.

The Iraqi people are emerging from decades of tyranny and oppression.

Under the regime of Saddam Hussein, the Shia and Kurds were brutally oppressed - and the vast majority of Sunni Arabs were also denied their basic rights while senior regime officials enjoyed the privileges of unchecked power.

The challenge facing Iraqis today is to put this past behind them, and come together to build a new Iraq that includes all its people.

They are doing that by building the institutions of a free society - a society based on freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, and equal justice under law.

The Iraqis have held free elections and established a transitional national assembly.

The next step is to write a good constitution that enshrines these freedoms in permanent law.

The assembly plans to expand its constitutional drafting committee to include more Sunni Arabs.

Many Sunnis who opposed the January elections are now taking part in the democratic process - and that is essential to Iraq's future.

After a constitution is written, the Iraqi people will have a chance to vote on it. If approved, Iraqis will go to the polls again, to elect a new government under their new, permanent constitution.

Changing Middle East

By taking these critical steps and meeting their deadlines, Iraqis will bind their multiethnic society together in a democracy that respects the will of the majority and protects minority rights.

As Iraqis grow confident that the democratic progress they are making is real and permanent, more will join the political process.

And as Iraqis see that their military can protect them, more will step forward with vital intelligence to help defeat the enemies of a free Iraq.

The combination of political and military reform will lay a solid foundation for a free and stable Iraq.

As Iraqis make progress toward a free society, the effects are being felt beyond Iraq's borders.

Before our coalition liberated Iraq, Libya was secretly pursuing nuclear weapons. Today the leader of Libya has given up his chemical and nuclear weapons programs.

Across the broader Middle East, people are claiming their freedom.

In the last few months, we have witnessed elections in the Palestinian territories and Lebanon.

These elections are inspiring democratic reformers in places like Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

Our strategy to defend ourselves and spread freedom is working.

The rise of freedom in this vital region will eliminate the conditions that feed radicalism and ideologies of murder - and make our nation safer.

'Holding firm'

We have more work to do, and there will be tough moments that test America's resolve. We are fighting against men with blind hatred - and armed with lethal weapons - who are capable of any atrocity.

They wear no uniform; they respect no laws of warfare or morality. They take innocent lives to create chaos for the cameras. They are trying to shake our will in Iraq - just as they tried to shake our will on 11 September 2001.

They will fail. The terrorists do not understand America. The American people do not falter under threat - and we will not allow our future to be determined by car bombers and assassins.

America and our friends are in a conflict that demands much of us. It demands the courage of our fighting men and women ... it demands the steadfastness of our allies ... and it demands the perseverance of our citizens.

We accept these burdens - because we know what is at stake. We fight today, because Iraq now carries the hope of freedom in a vital region of the world - and the rise of democracy will be the ultimate triumph over radicalism and terror.

And we fight today because terrorists want to attack our country and kill our citizens - and Iraq is where they are making their stand. So we will fight them there ... we will fight them across the world - and we will stay in the fight until the fight is won.

America has done difficult work before. From our desperate fight for independence, to the darkest days of a Civil War, to the hard-fought battles against tyranny in the 20th century, there were many chances to lose our heart, our nerve, or our way.

But Americans have always held firm, because we have always believed in certain truths.

We know that if evil is not confronted, it gains in strength and audacity, and returns to strike us again.

We know that when the work is hard, the proper response is not retreat, it is courage.

And we know that this great ideal of human freedom is entrusted to us in a special way - and that the ideal of liberty is worth defending.

Thanking the military

In this time of testing, our troops can know: the American people are behind you.

Next week, our nation has an opportunity to make sure that support is felt by every soldier, sailor, airman, coast guardsman, and Marine at every outpost across the world.

This 4 July, I ask you to find a way to thank the men and women defending our freedom - by flying the flag ... sending letters to our troops in the field ... or helping the military family down the street.

The Department of Defence has set up a website - AmericaSupportsYou.mil.

You can go there to learn about private efforts in your own community.

At this time when we celebrate our freedom, let us stand with the men and women who defend us all.

To the soldiers in this hall, and our servicemen and women across the globe: I thank you for your courage under fire and your service to our nation.

I thank our military families - the burden of war falls especially hard on you.

In this war, we have lost good men and women who left our shores to defend freedom - and did not live to make the journey home.

I have met with families grieving the loss of loved ones who were taken from us too soon.

I have been inspired by their strength in the face of such great loss.

We pray for the families. And the best way to honour the lives that have been given in this struggle is to complete the mission.

I thank those of you who have re-enlisted in an hour when your country needs you.

And to those watching tonight who are considering a military career, there is no higher calling than service in our armed forces.

'Great turning points'

We live in freedom because every generation has produced patriots willing to serve a cause greater than themselves.

Those who serve today are taking their rightful place among the greatest generations that have worn our nation's uniform.

When the history of this period is written, the liberation of Afghanistan and the liberation of Iraq will be remembered as great turning points in the story of freedom.

After 11 September 2001, I told the American people that the road ahead would be difficult - and that we would prevail.

Well, it has been difficult. And we are prevailing. Our enemies are brutal - but they are no match for the United States of America - and they are no match for the men and women of the United States military.

May God bless you all.
----------------
Agree or disagree, but Bush has defined the 'noble cause' in detail on several occasions.

Congratulations, tg ... you have just been baptized into A2K. Every newbie worth their salt has received -- often early on in their participation here -- a less-than-genteel response from Setanta, as he chastizes them for something, whether warranted or not. It's his way of saying "hi." You can look forward to many more.

Next, you can look forward to being cursed at by Frank Apisa. I think that's the next stage, if I remember correctly. But you might have to venture off to the religion threads to catch him.

Oh, and btw, you are offering good perspective here, even though I don't suspect I like much of your politics ... although that remains to be seen. But I do like your approach to the topic thus far.

Wasn't it the Spartan mothers who instructed their sons to either bring their shields back or be brought back on them? Tough love eh? I always thought it was a bit of a legend, that a mother would send her son to war with that instruction ringing in his ears. I was wrong it seems.

But then it's always easier to tell someone else's son to do the shield thing.

I just have to quote Wilfred Owen, it's just so appropriate:

So many declarations of reverence and admiration for the young Mr. Sheehan. It makes my heart swell to know that those who are so virulently in opposition to this war, have nothing but honor and respect for the men and women fighting it.

Of course the clear implication is that, unless these young men and women regret and or denounce their service, they are simple, naive, or gullible. No matter how individually noble they may be, the cause for which they risk and lose their lives is ignoble -- no matter what they may believe.

When they re-enlist it is because they have been coerced by the military, not because they believe in the mission.

When they are wounded or die it is because they have been duped by a vile and utterly cynical villain named Bush, not because they have been willing to sacrifice all for a cause in which they believe.

I can not know the depth of Mrs Sheehan's grief because, thank God, I have never lost one of my children, but just as every soldier in Iraq is not a hero, every mother who loses a child is not a saint. The war in Iraq is not pointless, and her son did not needlessly die simply because she believes it to be so. Tragic loss does not bring with it omniscience as compensation.

There is something unseemly about those of us on the sidelines arguing whether or not this young man's death was, in some way, noble. Very few soldiers in war give up their lives to save comrades or innocent bystanders. This does not mean that those who do not, would not have sacrificed their lives for those of others, but soldiers who die in war are very rarely offered the opportunity to decide the context of their deaths.

I doubt anyone would argue that in modern history, WWII was not a Just War, if the term has any meaning at all, and yet, at the very least, thousands of young men died in, militarily, foolish and pointless efforts. Were their deaths meaningless?

War in the Real World is not Gandalf leading the armies of the West against the evil Sauron. It is not Arthur and his knights fighting against Mordred's promise of chaos, and it isn't Robert Mitchum leading GI's from Brooklyn NY and Birmingham AL, against sadistic SS murderers.

The fault is not with political parties or leanings, it is with our kind.

It is a good thing that there are people railing against each and every war. War should never be an easy thing to pursue. Too many, however, make the mistake of believing that the mere fact that one rails against a war reveals one's wisdom and righteousness. There are High Horses galloping to and fro across America and their riders tend to be Liberals.

Young Mr Sheehan died before his time. If he were my son, I think I might be trying harder to prove that he died for a noble cause than for nothing at all.

It's entirely possible that that's exactly what she's doing.

How so?

Well, obviously, in her mind, the war is wrong. Maybe she believes that by protesting this war and trying to stop it, knowing that she will get special consideration as the mother of this dead soldier, her son, she is bringing nobility to her son's death in that way.

You may disagree with her on the war itself, but don't you agree that it's possible that, believing as she obviously does that this war is not in the best interest of her country, she might actually sincerely think that this is the best way to honor her son?

Or maybe I'm just tired and not thinking clearly. Could be. Either way, I'm going to bed.

Goodnight.

DULCE ET DECORUM EST -

I don't think the the conditions in the trenches and gas attacks translates to the modern warfare seen in Iraq.

The poem shows someone's opinion, which is what other here are doing all be it in a less poetic way. Willifred Owens ability to express himself does not make the thoughts or feeling he is expressing an more vaild or true then anybody else's.

You just can't give it up. You want to make out that the inherent nobility of Mr. Sheehan confers nobility on the war itself--despite your protestations that you only concern yourself with the question of his actions in context.

Were there no dirty little war by the Shrub, launched for venal reasons, Mr. Sheehan would very likely be alive today.

Some people are saying that his actions were noble, some people are saying the war is noble, nobody is saying the war is noble because his action were noble.