What Noble Cause Did Casey Sheehan Die For?

Quote:

At the risk of starting another argument,let me quote from the Bible...
"Greater love has no man then this, that one lay down his life for his friends"

But,from what some on here seem to be saying,that apparently doesnt mean anything.

Oh it's getting dirty.

There's a difference between a noble, selfless act and a dirty, useless war. The two might be connected only by time and place, their motivations are vastly different.

Casey Sheehan as a soldier committed a noble, selfless act within the context of a dirty, useless war to which he and everyone else was ordered to attend.

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Setanta wrote:

Nice work, MM, a series of sneers and slurs of partisan character. An entire squad of strawmen behind which to hide from the question of the character of the war. How pathetic . . .

I was not building strawmen,just pointing out the facts.
Go back and reread this entire thread if you doubt what I said.

But,let me be clear.

Casey Sheehan died while trying to rescue his buddies.
He gave his life trying to help someone else.
That is always a noble thing,no matter what others might think.

He died fighting in a war to remove an evil tyrant,he died trying to liberate people from oppression,just like those soldiers killed in WW2 did.
There can be no nobler reason to use military force then that.

There,I answered the original question for you.
You will disagree with my answer,but you got an answer.

But,you cannot deny that there are people on here saying that his death,whatever the reason and no matter what he was trying to do,was a meaningless,worthless,useless act.

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Yes i can deny it, and i do deny it. They are saying that he died in a war which is meaningless, worthless, useless. I've read the entire thread as it has fallen out, so no thanks for your snotty advice. I wrote at length about the Mexican War precisely because so many Americans gave their lives, and did so with great courage and nobility, in a thoroughly dispicable cause. Those who rush in here to condemn the other participants do so because they refuse to accept that this is a dirty little war started for venal reasons. Tough ****.

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That's much too deep for someone who's never been able to hit the spacebar after a comma, Setanta.

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The difference of opinion is between people issiting he died for the war in Iraq, and people insiting he die trying to save lives. The people saying the cause in which he died for was the war in Iraq are the people assuming knowlage of a dead mans belifs.

I'm not claiming to know what the guy thought about Iraq. I'm saying that to risk your life to save the life of somebody elses' is noble, no matter what the situation. To me, whether the war was right or wrong is not relivent when talking about the nobility of an individuals death.

Personally, I feel that the question asked what the noble cause was, nobody knew because Bush hadn't said what the noble cause was, many people are assuming that he ment the whole war on Iraq, but if Bush has not said that that noble cause IS Iraq, the it's only fair to see if there are any other noble causes he could of been refering to. People seem to be saying because the war shouldn't of happerned no idividual can do anything noble during the war.

I'm sure Bush wants people to think he is refering to the war, make people heros that we should be proud of rather than dead, ruining the lives of griving mothers, fathers, brohers and sisters. I'm sure Bush won't say it the war because he (or one of his advisers) know that it will bring the nature of the war to the for frount of news once more, and it seems to me that the more that is know about the war the more people become aware of the fact that this war should not be happerning, or at best shows Bush and the goverment as fools who did not think the repercutions through.

People who support the war have diverted the attention away the actual war itself, and people who don't support it have tried to keep the focus on the reasons for war.

I'm completly against the war, I have been ever since there were the first murmering of a possibility of one. But the responsiblity for troops being there is Bush's and Blair's and Berlisconi's and the leader of the nations that have gone to fight. The stupidity of the war and all the terrible things that have come from it, including Sheeban death, lies with them. Whether Sheeban belived the war was right or wrong is beside the point, whether he should of been there is beside the point, what he did was noble.

There was peoples lives in danger and he died tring to save them.

Adding other things on to that such as the war on Iraq or the war on terror or his own patriotism is just spinning his actions and death to suit your own view of the bigger picture. The people he was tring to save were in the same situation - dieing in a war that should not of been happerning.

If you don't belive that dieing to save another has some moral virtue than I would say there major differnces between you and I. However I don't think many people do think that leaving somebody to die to ensure your own safty is better than trying to save some and risk to ones' self.

Sorry if thats a bit muddle I was rushing because I'm going out in a

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Why does Casey's Sheehan's mother know so much more than his father?

Only despicable slime would negate his father's relationship with him. The mother is unbalanced, as the family's humiliation re her and separation from her shows.

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Exhibit A.

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Lash wrote:

Why does Casey's Sheehan's mother know so much more than his father?

Only despicable slime would negate his father's relationship with him. The mother is unbalanced, as the family's humiliation re her and separation from her shows.

Only the most despicable slime would call this courageous, grieving mother a nut. Women and mothers know the relationship between mother and son is different and generally deeper than the one between father and son. I am surprised that any adult, especially a woman, would question this. It is despical if anyone is trying to drive a wedge between these two. And it appears that that is what is happening here. Not that it matters because I doubt Cindy visits this site. Still, she could and those who have any decency would not engage in such thoughtless tactics.

OTOH who is negating the father's relationship or is this a typical strawman argument?

And, Lash, what does this have to do with the question? Why are you trying to hijack this thread by turning this into a personal attack on Cindy?

Of course, I know why.

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This reminds me so much of some other wretched, horrible, nasty, conservative Republican women.

She loves the smell of blood in the morning...

http://webpages.charter.net/micah/malkin.jpg

Quote:

Dear Mrs. Malkin,

Being a conservative Christian, I'm usually opposed to women leaving the home, but you're different from other women. Like Joan of Arc, you have the spirit of a warrior. You tore into that Gold Star mother, Cindy Sheehan, like a freeper at an all-you-can-eat Twinky buffet. You're passionately vicious. I like that in a public figure. It's why I vote Republican.

As much as I enjoy seeing you eviscerate grieving mothers, I think your viciousness could be applied more effectively. Your unwavering support for the war and your fierce hatred of brown people combine to make you the perfect candidate for service in Iraq. At 35, you're still eligible for duty, and your husband, like thousands of other fathers across the nation, could take care of the kids while you bring freedom to the undeserving idolators of Mosul and Tikrit.

I can almost see you now, covered in blood, feasting on the livers of your enemies, and I don't even want to think about what you'd do to the insurgents.

We need you in Iraq. Please answer your nation's call.

Heterosexually yours,

Gen. JC Christian, patriot

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She is merely a show business act. Half these people don't even believe in the nonsense thye spew. What better than a really hot young Asian women arguing that Japanese interrment was just a great idea. Conservative idiots eat this up.

What's next? A hot young Muslim woman railing that liberals are supporting terrorism by opposing the war?

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Setanta wrote:

Yes i can deny it, and i do deny it. They are saying that he died in a war which is meaningless, worthless, useless. I've read the entire thread as it has fallen out, so no thanks for your snotty advice. I wrote at length about the Mexican War precisely because so many Americans gave their lives, and did so with great courage and nobility, in a thoroughly dispicable cause. Those who rush in here to condemn the other participants do so because they refuse to accept that this is a dirty little war started for venal reasons. Tough ****.

Lets be clear.
YOU BELIEVE that it is a "meaningless, useless war.
I dont.
I was there,I saw what was happening,I saw how people were treated and the deplorable conditions they lived under.
Is Iraq a paradise now? No.
Will it ever be? No.
But,the people that are over there fighting are there because they VOLUNTEERED,They werent forced.
Also,Casey Sheehan re-enlisted during the war, knowing he would go back.
He WANTED to go back,because he felt it was the right thing to do.
So,who are you to decide that it wasnt a noble cause?
Apparently,he thought it was.
And so do I.

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Quote:

Also,Casey Sheehan re-enlisted during the war, knowing he would go back.

You know as well as I do that soldiers are being given the option of re-enlisting or being stop-lossed. So this is meaningless.

Cycloptichorn

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So the point about the Mexican War didn't sink in, did it. Americans have always volunteered and fought courageously, and have done so for reasons which have nothing to do with the war in which they fight. This is the case here. If the Iraqis are better off (and tens of thousands are now dead thanks to this war, and will never be able to answer), it is incidental to the motivation for the war. All lies, half-truths and media manipulation aside, this war was envisioned long before the tragety of September 11th was cynically exploited by the shithooks in the administration. It is, and always has been, a facet of the PNAC agenda. As such, the death of noble individuals such as Mr. Sheehan take on even more the character of great tragedy--and of useless sacrifice.

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Lash wrote:

Why does Casey's Sheehan's mother know so much more than his father?

Only despicable slime would negate his father's relationship with him. The mother is unbalanced, as the family's humiliation re her and separation from her shows.

Cindy=fruity patootie

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mysteryman wrote:

He died fighting in a war to remove an evil tyrant,he died trying to liberate people from oppression,just like those soldiers killed in WW2 did.

WWII was/is completly different to the war in Iraq. Nobody tried to liberate the German people from oppression or a dick head leader. People got involved when their arse was on the line. Nobody did anything when Hitler started building up his army, when he started taking land from France, nobody did anything when Hitler took over Check republic, England got agreed to help Poland in the face of German aggression in 1939. It was four years earlier that Hitler declared that Germany would not be bound by the Treaty of Versailles, and two years before Pearl Harbor was attacked. The soliders in WWII were saving their own country from attack. The war on Iraq did not save any nations from attack because Sadam was not a threat. He may of been in the future, but he had done nothing aggressive internationaly and he had no WMDs.

Sadam ain't got **** on Hitler. There were reasons to fight in WWII, there were none for Iraq (none that we were told anyway). WWII is in no way like the war in Iraq, except people are dieing.

mysteryman wrote:

But,you cannot deny that there are people on here saying that his death,whatever the reason and no matter what he was trying to do,was a meaningless,worthless,useless act.

Setanta wrote:

Yes i can deny it, and i do deny it. They are saying that he died in a war which is meaningless, worthless, useless.

So then you admit that his death was in some way meaningfull and had a worth and a use?

Your argument is against the war, not the actions of this individual. His death was worthless, because the war was worthless, his death was meaningless because the war had no meaning. The argument being put forward for the meaning/worth of the death is not about the war, it's about a moral judgement that no life single is more valuble that another. This belief is the noble cause.

Setanta wrote:

Those who rush in here to condemn the other participants do so because they refuse to accept that this is a dirty little war started for venal reasons.

I can't be bothered to read all the posts again, but I'm fairly sure that I've stated that I don't belive this war was right, and I would agree that it is dirty (I doubt little is a valid way to disribe it, but anyway...) I've said that I think that actions were noble, they rise above and beond any of the immoral, unrational, worthless and meaningless reasons for the war.

Setanta wrote:

so many Americans gave their lives, and did so with great courage and nobility, in a thoroughly dispicable cause.

Why can those American lives be give in a noble way for a dispicable cause, but the life we're discussing not be give in a noble way because the war is for a dispicable cause?

PDiddie wrote:

That's much too deep for someone who's never been able to hit the spacebar after a comma, Setanta.

goodfielder wrote:

what is the relevance of her paying or not paying her taxes?

Where is the relevence in any argument about somebody's use of a spacebar? If that was ment as a joke then I apologise and take it back.

The attack of the republican zombies, I fell was a bit below the belt as at least the space bar comment had some truth in it. I am not a republican zombie, I feel I'm arguing with people who I would usally be arguing against. Its quiet a refressing experiance though, almost as refreshing as a brain smoothie.

Chrissee wrote:

Only the most despicable slime would call this courageous, grieving mother a nut.

Can't argue with that.

Chrissee wrote:

Women and mothers know the relationship between mother and son is different and generally deeper than the one between father and son. I am surprised that any adult, especially a woman, would question this.

Can argue with that. You don't know the individual circumstances of this family. I'm not saying that the father has a greater understanding of his son, but you can't say for sure that the mother had a greater understanding than the father. The "generally" in "mothers know the relationship between mother and son is different and generally deeper than the one between father and son." works that same way as "if" and "may" do in "If Sadam had WMDs then it may have lead to a huge number of deaths"

I have no idea who Mrs. Malkin is.

goodfielder wrote:

what is the relevance of her paying or not paying her taxes?

She may well remind you of "other wretched, horrible, nasty, conservative Republican women." but the combing of a bad perm with a bad tash reminds me of John Jensen. I'm sure most people post here are reminded of bashing their head in to a brick wall, but stating it does not help.

mysteryman wrote:

the people that are over there fighting are there because they VOLUNTEERED,They werent forced.

No, they weren't forced, but they didn't volunteer either. They were/are paid. The majoritty aren't middle class and well educated. I don't see Tony Blair or George Bush trying to get their kids to sign up.

mysteryman wrote:

He WANTED to go back,because he felt it was the right thing to do.
So,who are you to decide that it wasnt a noble cause?
Apparently,he thought it was.
And so do I.

There will be debate over whether the war was a noble cause, I don't feel there can be any debate over risking your life for another is a noble cause. I'm yet to read anyone claim that the act of trying to save the life of others is not noble. I think if your look for nobility its right there no matter what the nature of the war.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

You know as well as I do that soldiers are being given the option of re-enlisting or being stop-lossed.

I don't know what "stop-lossed" is. Could you explain or point me to a web site that does?

Setanta wrote:

the death of noble individuals such as Mr. Sheehan take on even more the character of great tragedy--and of useless sacrifice.

Although I won't argue with the usless sacrifice, if his actions were not noble then what makes you claim he was a "noble individual"?

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You can attempt to warp what i've written to your heart's content. I've never denied the nobility of Mr. Sheehan or his actions with regards to his comrades. I've spoken of the war and its causes throughout. I consider you to be either naïve and confused, or partisan and willfully disingenuous--which ever it is matters little to me. I will not continue to explain again and again to you a distinction i've made quite clear. If you haven't the honesty, at least have the decency not to continue to misstate my case.

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This article in the Washington post explains the concept of the Army "Stop- Loss".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10961-2004Jun2.html

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Quote:

I don't know what "stop-lossed" is. Could you explain or point me to a web site that does?

Stop-loss means that when your term is up, the Armed Forces don't have to let you go. It's legal. You are required to go and fight pretty much when they say you have to; so for many soldiers, their last term in Iraq suddenly isn't the last term.

So the soldiers are all being given an option; sign up to re-enlist, and get a nice fat bonus, or get stop-lossed. Which would you choose?

Cycloptichorn

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Setanta wrote:

You can attempt to warp what i've written to your heart's content. I've never denied the nobility of Mr. Sheehan or his actions with regards to his comrades. I've spoken of the war and its causes throughout. I consider you to be either naïve and confused, or partisan and willfully disingenuous--which ever it is matters little to me. I will not continue to explain again and again to you a distinction i've made quite clear. If you haven't the honesty, at least have the decency not to continue to misstate my case.

I have not tried to warp your words.

if you would reread your posts and point out to me where you made that clear distinction I will have no problem in saying I've misunderstood your case or what you've said. However this seems to be the first time you have made that clear distiction, except in the previous post where I asked you to explain why you would think his death was noble dispite earlier post which seem to suggest that you did not think his death was noble.

The post about the war in mexico finished with

"As Dys cogently observes, that an honorable man die honorably in a war does not make the war honorable"

But the question wasn't about the war, it was about the nobility of the man death.

And in none of the post I've read have you said anything about the nobility of his individual actions. Each time a claim has been made that his actions were noble you have stated something about the war not being noble. When metioning the war in Mexico you finished the post with and something like an honrable man, doing honrable things doesn't make an honrable war, I would count that as a clear decliration of his actions being noble. If I am mistake I am be willing to admit it.

I would also like to add that you've not argued any of the points I've made in my previos post, you just patronised and insulted me.

I'm not posting here to "win" the argument, I'm simple stating what I think about previous posts. I had never hear of this guy until I read this stuff, I have no reason to warp your words because I don't have any ends to warp them for. If you do not wish to continue the discution then you don't have too.

Like I said, I'm willing to hold my hands up and say sorry if I've mis understood your arguments, but I've only reacted to what my understanding of what I've read is.

Thanks for the Stop loss thing. It seems to catch 22 to ever really help the millitary.

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What Noble Cause Did Casey Sheehan Die For?

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