What Noble Cause Did Casey Sheehan Die For?

Hell, I'm saying that NEITHER of them were noble.

There's no reason to place this kid up on a platform. He's just another guy. I haven't seen any evidence of 'Nobility' from Mr. Sheenan at all, or from the War at all.

Cycloptichorn

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terrygallagher wrote:

Some people are saying that his actions were noble, some people are saying the war is noble, nobody is saying the war is noble because his action were noble.

You tried for quite a while in this thread to contend that those who say the war is useless were therefore saying that Mr. Sheehan's self-sacrifice was useless. Now you want to duck the obvious implication that if his sacrifice was noble, so therefore was the cause in which he died. You may want to have it both ways, but you'll not get away with it.

As for Cyclo's comment, i don't buy the dulce et decorum est pro patria mori line one bit. I do subscribe to the contention that "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." To that extent, i consider Mr. Sheehan to have acted nobly.

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Quote:

Young Mr Sheehan died before his time. If he were my son, I think I might be trying harder to prove that he died for a noble cause than for nothing at all.

Of course you would because that is the easy way out. I have talked to many many women about Cindy's situation. We all agree that it would be far less painful to cling to the lie that their son had died for some noble cause than to face the truth that he died for nothing. So maybe you lack the courage or the abiltity to face the truth that she has.

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I guess it brings up the question: are all soldiers noble by default?

Not that I intend to impunge the honor of those troops who have fought bravely; but does signing up for the military confer nobility automatically? It doesn't seem so to me. I appreciate the decision to make a sacrifice on behalf of another but this speaks nothing of the motives of those who go or of their actions.

An exaggerated case: A young man is given the option of going to jail or joining the military after caught committing crimes. He joins the military, goes through basic and is shipped off to war where he is blown up by a bomb on the side of the road a few days later. Is he noble?

What about a soldier fighting for the Nazis in WW2? Were they noble? Whether or not they agreed with what their country was doing, they were soldiers all the same (especially in the beginning of the war). Should their deaths be considered to be noble deaths?

Just some questions; don't get your panties in a bunch if you disagree.

Cycloptichorn

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I believe soldiers can commit noble acts even in an unjust war. I think it comes down to formation of conscience. If they truly beleive they are fighting for a noble cause because they have been lied to by their political leaders, it is possible to conceive that even German soldiers could act nobly. But, of course, that does mean the cause for which they are fighting is noble.

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Chrissee wrote:

Quote:
Young Mr Sheehan died before his time. If he were my son, I think I might be trying harder to prove that he died for a noble cause than for nothing at all.

Of course you would because that is the easy way out. I have talked to many many women about Cindy's situation. We all agree that it would be far less painful to cling to the lie that their son had died for some noble cause than to face the truth that he died for nothing. So maybe you lack the courage or the abiltity to face the truth that she has.

Maybe

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

I guess it brings up the question: are all soldiers noble by default?

Not that I intend to impunge the honor of those troops who have fought bravely; but does signing up for the military confer nobility automatically? It doesn't seem so to me. I appreciate the decision to make a sacrifice on behalf of another but this speaks nothing of the motives of those who go or of their actions.

An exaggerated case: A young man is given the option of going to jail or joining the military after caught committing crimes. He joins the military, goes through basic and is shipped off to war where he is blown up by a bomb on the side of the road a few days later. Is he noble?

What about a soldier fighting for the Nazis in WW2? Were they noble? Whether or not they agreed with what their country was doing, they were soldiers all the same (especially in the beginning of the war). Should their deaths be considered to be noble deaths?

Just some questions; don't get your panties in a bunch if you disagree.

Cycloptichorn

No they are not, anymore than all grieving mothers are saintly, or all deaths in a war with which one disagrees are meaningless.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

I guess it brings up the question: are all soldiers noble by default?

Not that I intend to impunge the honor of those troops who have fought bravely; but does signing up for the military confer nobility automatically? It doesn't seem so to me. I appreciate the decision to make a sacrifice on behalf of another but this speaks nothing of the motives of those who go or of their actions.

An exaggerated case: A young man is given the option of going to jail or joining the military after caught committing crimes. He joins the military, goes through basic and is shipped off to war where he is blown up by a bomb on the side of the road a few days later. Is he noble?

What about a soldier fighting for the Nazis in WW2? Were they noble? Whether or not they agreed with what their country was doing, they were soldiers all the same (especially in the beginning of the war). Should their deaths be considered to be noble deaths?

Just some questions; don't get your panties in a bunch if you disagree.

Cycloptichorn

As of today and as far as I am aware, our military today is strictly voluntary. No, draft, no coercion, to gun to the head. Even in the case that you suggested, a choice of jail or the military, that rarely, rarely happens anymore. The entrance requirements are very stringent compared to the days of the Vietnam draft. If said criminal does not or cannot pass the entrance requirements, he ends up in jail, no second chances.

So, by default, I would have to say a resounding YES. Those who volunteer for todays military are very noble, despite what their reasons are for joining. And I don't see how it comes down to believing in a persons particular party affiliation. If that were true, only young men and women Republicans would be joining voluntarily and that is not the case. Do you really think young American Democrats are signing up because of their loyalty to Bush?. That's just plain crazythought.

All military personnel are sworn in under Oath. To a Constitution not a person. The following oath is taken by all personnel inducted into the armed forces of the United States, as found in the US Code, Section 502.

"I, (name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (God is optional now)

Never sell the importance of this oath short. It is critical to our republic. Many heads of state elsewhere demand their military forces swear allegiance to them, and the people of those countries invariably suffer as a consequence.

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Deferential nod to Lady J.
Very well said.

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Quote:

So, by default, I would have to say a resounding YES. Those who volunteer for todays military are very noble, despite what their reasons are for joining. And I don't see how it comes down to believing in a persons particular party affiliation. If that were true, only young men and women Republicans would be joining voluntarily and that is not the case. Do you really think young American Democrats are signing up because of their loyalty to Bush?. That's just plain crazythought.

Well, I don't think the military has much to do with party identification either; notice the extreme lack of young Republicans rushing to sign up to fight.

But my contention is that it is the actions of a person that decides nobility. Signing up for the military is a small step towards nobility at best, for you do not know the reasons they are signing up for. The oath to defend the Constitution is required; oaths taken under duress are meaningless.

A US soldier who signs up for the military, is shipped to Iraq, and beats an innocent man to death can hardly be described as Noble. And yet, we know this must have happened many times. So, I feel it is impossible to categorically state that someone is Noble just because they have signed up for the military; some soldiers are Craven (not De Kere, heh), some are Cowardly, some are Traitorous. Yet all remain US soldiers. Therefore, Nobility must exist in actions that go beyond enlistment in the armed forces.

Cheers

Cycloptichorn

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I agree with Cyclo. I have a cousin who told me, a couple days after he signed up for the marines, that he did it because he wanted "to f*ck people up." He was nineteen years old and had been a troublemaking a-hole all his life. How noble is that?

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Cyclo says "Well, I don't think the military has much to do with party identification either; notice the extreme lack of young Republicans rushing to sign up to fight. "

No. However I have noticed that you seem to have a habit of quickly catagorizing people as RIGHTY/REpugs or Lefty/Democs. I have not seen wide spread young Democrats enlisting either.

When I enlisted, I had no concept of political parties. I bet the vast majority of todays enlisted personal do not also.

To make the decision to enlist in the military, knowingly giving up a few years of your precious youth IS a noble thing to do. Even for a troublemaking nit-wit as described above. That nit-wit made a sacrifice that most Americans would never do. However, once in, you must act accordingly.

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Quote:

To make the decision to enlist in the military, knowingly giving up a few years of your precious youth IS a noble thing to do. Even for a troublemaking nit-wit as described above. That nit-wit made a sacrifice that most Americans would never do. However, once in, you must act accordingly.

I agree with this. I believe that signing up for the Military may be a noble act but as you have stated, it is one's actions on a whole which determine nobility, not just a single act.

The only reason I mention Republicans in this context is that while talk the loudest about how we all must sacrifice and stay the course, they seem the least likely to actually sign up.

Cycloptichorn

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Setanta wrote:

You tried for quite a while in this thread to contend that those who say the war is useless were therefore saying that Mr. Sheehan's self-sacrifice was useless. Now you want to duck the obvious implication that if his sacrifice was noble, so therefore was the cause in which he died. You may want to have it both ways, but you'll not get away with it.

No I did not, I tried for quite a while to seperate his noble death from the unnoble war. I said the nobility of his death had nothing to do with the nobility of the war.

I said that the cause for which he die was tring to save the life of others, which is noble no matter what the situation.

Other said the cause for which he died(lets call it a) was the war(b) was meaningless(c), by not accepting anyother possible cause for which he died they are saying his dead was meaningless as the war was meaningless.

a=b
and
b=c
Therefore
a=c.

I'm saying that there is more to his death than the just the war.

a does not equal b.

I don't think all soilders are noble. There's armies in Africa holding guns to peoples head while they mine dimonds. Not everthing everything army does is noble, therefore it can not be said that you are a noble individual for joining an army.

A less extreme example of the criminal being force into the army would be somebody joining up as a career.

woiyo wrote:

That nit-wit made a sacrifice that most Americans would never do. However, once in, you must act accordingly.

But the if the reason he made that sacrifice was so he could f*** people up then he is not noble. Once in you can be court marshelled and kicked out so not everyone does act accordingly.

I think the abuse of captured and conquered people is enough evidence to say that you are not noble simply for joining the army.

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I am curious to know how you can make a statement that they "seem the least likely to actually sign up." You have some type of data to make that claim Cy? You know me, I just cannot help wondering where you get your data. That, and I do so enjoy giving you a rough time. Hehe.

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I think that most young people are apolitical and this would include youngsters who sign up for the armed forces. However, I think once signed up there is a very strong Christian/Republican culture in the military that would probably sway them.

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Quote:

I am curious to know how you can make a statement that they "seem the least likely to actually sign up." You have some type of data to make that claim Cy? You know me, I just cannot help wondering where you get your data. That, and I do so enjoy giving you a rough time. Hehe.

Mostly from conversations with people who speak a lot about the war, but don't sign up themselves. I said 'seem' because I don't really have empirical data to back that up; merely my impression.

True, you don't see a bunch of young Dems rushing to join either; but at least they aren't telling others to do so.

I still think we should bring back the Foriegn Legion as the only way of acquiring US citizenship for males of age; we'd fill the ranks in a day.

Cheers

Cycloptichorn

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CoastalRat wrote:

I am curious to know how you can make a statement that they "seem the least likely to actually sign up." You have some type of data to make that claim Cy? You know me, I just cannot help wondering where you get your data. That, and I do so enjoy giving you a rough time. Hehe.

Yea...Me too. SHOW ME THE DATA.

PS: From what I recall, Sheehan died trying to save others. That is heroic and noble, regardless of your opinion of the actual war.

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woiyo wrote:

PS: From what I recall, Sheehan died trying to save others. That is heroic and noble, regardless of your opinion of the actual war.

That's been hashed out at considerable length here. I think that almost (not quite, but almost) everyone here takes that point of view.

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"I still think we should bring back the Foriegn Legion as the only way of acquiring US citizenship for males of age;"

What...no females???

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What Noble Cause Did Casey Sheehan Die For?

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