One event changes attitude in UK-----how strange

I haven't got a book of Irish history.

Overdue for freedom? Spare me the rhetoric. They know they're free.

Yah. That's why they bombed the hell out of England. Fireworks, out of control...

Spare me. You don't speak for the Irish.

He was invited to speak by a mainstream American foundation.

Looks like what we call an own-goal, a diplomatic gaffe arising from a mistake, arising from poor information, arising from ....

Do you know what Sinn Fein/IRA are trying to achieve?

And if you can answer the question - and it's a reasonable question - without a reflexive smear that would be good. If you can't answer a straight question without some sort of snide remark then just ignore it.

Send them John Ashcroft, he'll fix up their freedoms good.

America used to be free.

People. Civil discourse is the hallmark of A2K. Let's not get this interesting thread locked up. Everyone take a breath and chill. This thread demands self control.

This man is a moderate and influential muslim leader: the kind we need to support:

UK Muslim leader barred from US

British Muslim leader Sheikh Dr Zaki Badawi has said he has been refused entry to the US without explanation.
The head of the Muslim College said he flew from London to New York to give a lecture at the Chautauqua Institution in New York but was turned back.
Dr Badawi said he was detained for six hours on Wednesday and that he was baffled and angry by the exclusion.
US Immigration and Customs Enforcement said it had information indicating Dr Badawi was "inadmissible".
Dr Badawi told BBC News he was angry that he was detained for six hours rather than being denied entry immediately.
"I really am mystified. I don't see any connection at all. It is completely illogical."
'Privacy rules'
Dr Badawi appeared with fellow British faith leaders, including the Archbishop of Canterbury, on Sunday to deliver a joint statement condemning last week's "evil terrorist" attacks on London.
US customs spokeswoman Janet Rapaport said that when problems arose at JFK airport, Dr Badawi voluntarily withdrew his application to enter the country and returned home.
"We cannot disclose the information which led to the application being inadmissible because of privacy rules," she added.

<more..>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4684489.stm

Watch England over the next few months, McTag.

You either respond, or you do nothing. England will change.

goodfielder--

What would make you hink I don't know the goals of Sinn Fein and the IRA? Who couldn't know?

It's not exactly a secret.

An Address to the IRA

-------------
Other stories for 6 April, 2005
Gerry Adams to deliver keynote speech on peace process in Belfast

Published: 6 April, 2005

The following is the text of a speech by Sinn Féin President Gerry Adams.

I want to speak directly to the men and women of Oglaigh na hEireann, the volunteer soldiers of the Irish Republican Army.

In time of great peril you stepped into the Bearna Baoil, the gap of danger. When others stood idly by, you and your families gave your all, in defence of a risen people and in pursuit of Irish freedom and unity.

Against mighty odds you held the line and faced down a huge military foe, the British crown forces and their surrogates in the unionist death squads.

Eleven years ago the Army leadership ordered a complete cessation of military operations. This courageous decision was in response to proposals put forward by the Sinn Fein leadership to construct a peace process, build democratic politics and achieve a lasting peace.

Since then despite many provocations and setbacks the cessation has endured.

And more than that, when elements within the British and Irish establishments and rejectionist unionism delayed progress, it was the IRA leadership which authorised a number of significant initiatives to enhance the peace process.

On a number of occasions commitments have been reneged on. These include commitments from the two governments.

The Irish Republican Army has kept every commitment made by its leadership.

The most recent of these was last December when the IRA was prepared to support a comprehensive agreement. At that time the Army leadership said the implementation of this agreement would allow everyone, including the IRA, to take its political objectives forward by peaceful and democratic means.

That agreement perished on the rock of unionist intransigence. The shortsightedness of the two governments compounded the difficulties.

Since then there has been a vicious campaign of vilification against republicans, driven in the main by the Irish government. There are a number of reasons for this.

The growing political influence of Sinn Fein is a primary factor.

The unionists also for their part, want to minimise the potential for change, not only on the equality agenda but on the issues of sovereignty and ending the union.

The IRA is being used as the excuse by them all not to engage properly in the process of building peace with justice in Ireland.

For over thirty years the IRA showed that the British government could not rule Ireland on its own terms. You asserted the legitimacy of the right of the people of this island to freedom and independence. Many of your comrades made the ultimate sacrifice.

Your determination, selflessness and courage have brought the freedom struggle towards its fulfillment.

That struggle can now be taken forward by other means. I say this with the authority of my office as President of Sinn Fein.

In the past I have defended the right of the IRA to engage in armed struggle. I did so because there was no alternative for those who would not bend the knee, or turn a blind eye to oppression, or for those who wanted a national republic.

Now there is an alternative.

I have clearly set out my view of what that alternative is. The way forward is by building political support for republican and democratic objectives across Ireland and by winning support for these goals internationally.

I want to use this occasion therefore to appeal to the leadership of Oglaigh na hEireann to fully embrace and accept this alternative.

Can you take courageous initiatives which will achieve your aims by purely political and democratic activity?

I know full well that such truly historic decisions can only be taken in the aftermath of intense internal consultation. I ask that you initiate this as quickly as possible.

I understand fully that the IRAs most recent positive contribution to the peace process was in the context of a comprehensive agreement. But I also hold the very strong view that republicans need to lead by example.

There is no greater demonstration of this than the IRA cessation in the summer of 1994.

Sinn Fein has demonstrated the ability to play a leadership role as part of a popular movement towards peace, equality and justice.

We are totally commited to ending partition and to creating the conditions for unity and independence. Sinn Fein has the potential and capacity to become the vehicle for the attainment of republican objectives.

The Ireland we live in today is also very different place from 15 years ago. There is now an all-Ireland agenda with huge potential.

Nationalists and republicans have a confidence that will never again allow anyone to be treated as second class citizens. Equality is our watchword.

The catalyst for much of this change is the growing support for republicanism.

Of course, those who oppose change are not going to simply roll over. It will always be a battle a day between those who want maximum change and those who want to maintain the status quo. But if republicans are to prevail, if the peace process is to be successfully concluded and Irish sovereignty and re-unification secured, then we have to set the agenda - no one else is going to do that.

So, I also want to make a personal appeal to all of you - the women and men volunteers who have remained undefeated in the face of tremendous odds.

Now is the time for you to step into the Bearna Baoil again; not as volunteers risking life and limb but as activists in a national movement towards independence and unity.

Such decisions will be far reaching and difficult. But you never lacked courage in the past. Your courage is now needed for the future.

It won‚t be easy. There are many problems to be resolved by the people of Ireland in the time ahead. Your ability as republican volunteers, to rise to this challenge will mean that the two governments and others cannot easily hide from their obligations and their responsibility to resolve these problems.

Our struggle has reached a defining moment.

I am asking you to join me in seizing this moment, to intensify our efforts, to rebuild the peace process and decisively move our struggle forward.

And what does the Irish Government think of all this?

Edited to add:



I didn't assume that at all Lash - I asked you to find out not to play some sort of mind game.

Good morning good people of A2K and the world........I've been reading the last five pages of the thread with astonishment. You either have not read the following article......or......you are in denial that it could be true. I myself was surprised but it is evident that the UK, because it has bent over backward to be tolerant of the many cultures. is now the victim of that tolerance. On the other hand, France has recongized the danger posed by Islamic terrorism, and is doing something about it. I personally despise Chirac for his duplicity in the Iraq situation but am very glad to see that he is not a complete fool.

Daniel Pipes: How Britain harbours terror

July 14, 2005


THANKS to the war in Iraq, much of the world sees the British Government as resolute and tough, the French one as appeasing and weak. But in another war, the one against terrorism and radical Islam, the reverse is true: France is the most stalwart nation in the West, even more so than the US, while Great Britain is the very most hapless. Consider:

Counterterrorism. UK-based terrorists have carried out operations in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kenya, Tanzania, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Israel, Morocco, Russia, Spain, and the US. Many governments - Jordanian, Egyptian, Moroccan, Spanish, French and American - have protested London's refusal to shut down its Islamist terrorist infrastructure or extradite wanted operatives. In frustration, Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak publicly denounced Britain for "protecting killers". One American security group has called for Britain to be listed as a terrorism-sponsoring state.

Counterterrorism specialists disdain the British. Roger Cressey calls London "easily the most important jihadist hub in Western Europe". Steven Simon dismisses the British capital as "the Star Wars bar scene" of Islamic radicals. More brutally, an intelligence official said of last week's attacks: "The terrorists have come home. It is payback time for ... an irresponsible policy."

While London hosts terrorists, Paris hosts a top-secret counterterrorism centre, code-named Alliance Base, whose existence was just revealed by The Washington Post. At the centre, six major Western governments since 2002 share intelligence and run counterterrorism operations (the latter makes it unique).

More broadly, President Jacques Chirac instructed French intelligence agencies just days after 9/11 to share terrorism data with their US counterparts "as if they were your own service". This co-operation is working: former acting CIA director John McLaughlin calls this bilateral intelligence tie "one of the best in the world". The British may have a special relationship with Washington in Iraq, but the French have one in the war on terror.






France accords terrorist suspects fewer rights than any other Western state, permitting interrogation without a lawyer, lengthy pre-trial incarcerations, and evidence acquired under dubious circumstances. Were he a terrorism suspect, says Evan Kohlmann, author of Al-Qaida's Jihad in Europe, he "would least like to be held under" the French system.

Radical Islam. The myriad French-British differences in this arena can be summarised by the example of what Muslim girls may wear to state-funded schools.

Denbigh High School in Luton, 48km northwest of London, has a student population about 80 per cent Muslim. It years ago accommodated the sartorial needs of their faith and heritage, including a female student uniform made up of the Pakistani shalwar kameez trousers, a jerkin top, and hijab head covering. But when Shabina Begum, a teenager of Bangladeshi origins, insisted in 2004 on wearing a jilbab, which covers the entire body except for the face and hands, Denbigh administrators said no.

Their dispute ended up in litigation and the Court of Appeal ultimately decided in Begum's favour. As a result, by law UK schools must now accept the jilbab. Not only that, but Cherie Booth, wife of British prime minister Tony Blair, was Begum's lawyer at the appellate level. Booth called the court's judgment "a victory for all Muslims who wish to preserve their identity and values despite prejudice and bigotry".

In contrast, also in 2004, the French government outlawed the hijab, the Muslim headscarf, from public educational institutions, disregarding ferocious opposition both within France and among Islamists worldwide. In Tehran, protesters shouted "Death to France!" and "Death to Chirac the Zionist!" The Palestinian Authority mufti, Ikrima Said Sabri, declared that "French laws banning the hijab constitute a war against Islam as a religion". The Saudi grand mufti, Abdul Aziz al-Sheikh, called them a human rights infringement. When the "Islamic Army in Iraq" kidnapped two French journalists, it threatened their execution unless the hijab

ban was revoked. Nonetheless, Paris stood firm.

What lies behind these contrary responses? The British have seemingly lost interest in their heritage while the French hold on to theirs; even as the British ban fox hunting, the French ban hijabs.

The former embraced multiculturalism, the latter retain a pride in their historic culture. This contrast in matters of identity makes Great Britain the Western country most vulnerable to the ravages of radical Islam, whereas France, for all its political failings, has retained a sense of self that may yet see it through.

Daniel Pipes is director of the Middle East Forum in Philadelphia and author of several books on Islam and the Middle East.

OK.

I know what the "Irish government" currently thinks of this.

Do YOU know why Northern Ireland cannot be counted in a fair assessment of the hearts and minds and will of the Irish people?

I don't know. From memory NI was populated by Scots imports? Is that right? Note - bit of a pity I have to say this but that's not me being disingenous, I only know Irish history from what I've read which hasn't been extensive I have to admit, but I do remember something about the English moving Scots from Scotland to settle in what we know now as Northern Ireland.

Are you saying that the people of Ulster have no say in the future of the island?

Perhaps you're right- they have been there only 400 years or so, after all.

By logical extention, the only people with a legitimate vote in the USA are the descendants of big Chief Laughing My Ass Off.

OK, but your allegations about Bush were the only ones you bothered to offer. I readily agree that he is rhetorically ... challenged. However I consider the strategy he is pursuing both wise and farsighted. I also note that most of his detractors make absurd claims such as -- 'don't disturb or anger them (Islamist terrorists) or they'll hurts us more'. One might have thought that the nation that suffered the consequences of Chamberlain's world-weary accommodation of Hitler could retain a bit of wisdom on that score.

Unfortunately you were not alone. Even proportional to population our losses in 9/11 were about fourteen times as great - and that does not include casualties from earlier atacks on the WTC, our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, the Khobar Towers bombing, or that of USS Cole. Spain, with a smaller population than Britain's lost about 200 people in the Madrid bombings. If you wish to suppose the retaliation in London was exclusively the result of your support in the Iraqi war that is your right - but it is exceedingly unrealistic.

True enough, and, as an associated matter, you might note that U.S. sympathy and private support for the IRA dried up after the political settlement in Northern Ireland. The Republic of Ireland has been doing quite well for a long time: it was the continued oppression of Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland by a then seriously retrograde Stormont government controlled, by a group whose minds were apparently frozen in a Calvanist fantasy of 400 years ago, that created the continued support - and it was merited.


I do note that Blair is still the PM and there has been no reversal of British policy on these matters. Which of us is truly in the grip of an illusion?

Perhaps our security services know something your's don't or won't act on. We have no obligation to accept this person into our country - even for a visit - and no obligation to explain our actions. You can go on cultivating such types - what has it gotten you so far? Surely you aren't trying to suggest that British Imperial policy in the Arab/Moslem world has been a success? Or equally, that British policy for the assimilation of Moslem immigrants has materially contributed to enhanced social and economic productivity and peace in the UK.

Muslim immigrants have contributed vastly to our economic productivity, and to our society, for sure.

But back to the original point: if you see news from the UK today, you will see stated and written many times over, that the only way we can get a grip on this situation is to get active cooperation from moderate muslim communities.
Insulting moderate leaders by this action runs exactly counter to this.

blah blah blah... Ohmigod it's deja vu all over again. Pardon my French. Here's Ray again with how the French have got it right. Sure to provide a little cognitive dissonance amongst the rightwingers, they will have to say nicenice things again about America's first ally.

And McGentrix....



I took that to mean that you thought they hadn't had enough or were too soft to react. No? What did you mean?

As for Ireland:

I am the son of the daughter of a Kerryman. I grew up singing everything from Roddy McCorley to Mary's Wedding to the Foggy Dew. In our little church in Connecticut there was a box to put money in for a Free Ireland and we put money in regularly through the early sixties before I left home.

At some point, maybe as my friends were dying in Southeast Asia, maybe later, mid-70's or so, I eschewed violence in my life and at that time I re-examined the role of the IRA in Ireland. It came to me that for Ireland to be free and make use of all those pennies I put in there there could be no more bombs in pubs, no more knee-capping, those days were past and those methods immoral.

To this in perspective, this was at a time when German terrorists led by Carlos the Jackal were blowing up a OPEC meeting and kidnapping it's ministers at the behest of Syria and the PLO. Then they turned to blowing up the high speed trains in France. Meanwhile, Ulster roads were patrolled by armored trucks and in the USA the SLA held up banks using an heiress as point. To say nothing about the hy-jacked airliners blown up in the desert and Olympic athletes killed in their beds.

I thought the world would melt.

The IRA should have dis-armed unilaterally forty years, maybe eighty years ago, leaving the British government without a moral leg to stand on. The PLO should have dis-armed unilaterally leaving the Israeli government without a moral leg to stand on. And all the rest, yes, all of them, Shining Path and Army of God, United Klans of America and Red Brigades, everyone who thinks peace can be achieved through force. Don't ask me, ask Ghandi.

Joe(full of something)Nation

Joe

It seems your denial of reality has reduced you to incoherence.......get grip lad.

Joe makes a lot of sense. But I realize for some folks it's easier to cut 'n' paste junk from their favorite screedsters...

I only can agree.