One event changes attitude in UK-----how strange

lash wrote :
"Free the Irish!! Get off their land!!!! "

i wonder how lash would feel is the slogan would be slightly altered to read :

"Free the Native Americans - the Indians and Eskimos !! Get off their land !!!!"

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i think as citizens of canada and the united states we better keep quiet or someone might tell us :
"GET OFF MY LAND - AND HURRY UP !".

(lash : have you called the movers yet ?)

hbg

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But multiculturalism as a political ideology has helped to create a tribal Britain with no political or moral centre.

A TRIBAL BRITAIN WITH NO POLITICAL OR MORAL CENTRE.......the author grew up as one of the those tribes and he recognizes what has happened...........

Guest contributors

July 16, 2005

Multiculturalism has fanned the flames of Islamic extremism
Kenan Malik

The article is here if anyone cares to face facts:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1072-1695604,00.html

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"Where did the Protestants come from? The ones now occupying Northern Ireland?"

And where did the Americans come from? The ones now occupying North America?

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sorry hamburger, had not read your post when i replied.

Lash if its possible, try and move on from the plantationists and Oliver Cromwell (a particular hero of mine) and focus on Northern Ireland today.

It is true the catholics suffered discrimation. But not now.

All people have to do in N Ireland to achieve union with the Republic is to lobby for it through political means. And you know what? A majority dont want it. That might stymie your rebellious spirit somewhat but it happens to be true and it has a name: democracy.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Lash wrote:

Since the Reformation, Northern Ireland had been a Protestant nation. But Northern Ireland's native people were Catholic.

You might not be aware of it but this is true for ALL parts of Europe (where now is an evangelical/protestestant region).

Walter--

The Catholics who lived in the area called Northern Ireland didn't convert. Their land was stolen from them by the British and given to Protestants--one of the many things they did to affect Irish genocide.

Hamburger--

You are correct, IMO, to draw comparisons to the Native Americans. There is an undeniable parallel. Neither the US, nor the Protestants in Northern Ireland can pack up and leave. Though it has been a disaster of epic proportions, the Native Americans have been given their own brand of self-determination.

Comparing this to the situation in Ireland, of course no one expects anyone to pack up and leave there. But, giving them their own brand of self-determination would be the right thing to do, IMO.

Steve-- If you don't mind indulging me--knowing what Cromwell did to the Irish, how can he be a hero?

And, I would be happy and relieved to move on from the Plantationists--if they weren't still acheiving their goal of keeping the Irish down. I think they're still suffering discrimination.

But, I've had my yearly rant about it.

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Lash wrote:

Steve-- If you don't mind indulging me--knowing what Cromwell did to the Irish, how can he be a hero?

But YOU admire Washington, right?

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Cromwell fought for parliament and people.

He took stern action against those parts of Ireland which were supportive of the king and wished to carry on the civil war.

He acted within the rules of military engagement of the time, specifically offering garrison towns the opportunity to surrender, which was refused. So he slaughtered them all. No very nice but no worse than much more recent atrocities.

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Are you under the impression Washington did anything that compares to what Cromwell did to the Irish? If you are, please link it, as I know of nothing comparable.

I hope you will make sure you know what Cromwell did--how he committed those Irish massacres--and that you will give a measured answer. I'm not afraid of valid comparisons, nor am I unwilling to accept information that is new to me--so, I hope you'll be straight with me.

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Lash wrote:

The Catholics who lived in the area called Northern Ireland didn't convert. Their land was stolen from them by the British and given to Protestants-

I sincerely doubt, anyone can make up a list of regions/countries where similar happened without consulting a couple of books. (For Germany, for example, even the major uvres about this topic vary in the number.)

Perhaps you forgot about this, but such was very common after the reformation: Catholics lost their land to Evangelicals, Evangelicals to Catholics, Lutherans to Reformed ... and even the Peace of Augsburg with its 'cuius regio, eius religio' didn't bring any real 'justice' at all.

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You are discussing the much wider issue of power fluctuations and repercussions that stemmed from the Reformation--and that is an interesting discussion.

You are correct, quite obviously, that the Reformation was the context of his hideous crime against the Irish. That just doesn't make it easier for me to come to terms with, unfortunately.

But, you add interest to the topic.

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Ahem....Lash......could you get back to the topic.....I feel like I'm being ignored here. I agree you need to keep hammering the nasty Brits about their past but maybe on a different thread. Cool

The silence from all you multiculturalist sympathizers is deafening but then I'm not surprised.......the indefensible is just that......indefensible.

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i'm reasonably sure we can all agree that the movement of peoples -both armed and unarmed - throughout the world has changed the world and will continue to change the world.
some of these changes may have been beneficial others have been disastrous.
i doubt it will be possible to stop - let alone reverse - those movements.
mankind will just have to learn how to live with those changes ... or else we may all perish. hbg

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Lol - mebbe we are thinking about the genocide committed against the native ingabitants of North and South America, Canada, Australia etc - and thinking we don't have too much of a leg to stand on in criticising the Brits, since we are enjoying the fruits of their and Spanish and Portuguese and a wee bit of French genocide?

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Having been guilty of it in the past is no excuse to allow it to continue elsewhere.

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So - all we whities and the other races who are not native to all those continents are going back where we came from , are we, and giving them back?

Do you actually know how big the not given back bit ot Ireland is?

http://www.sitesatlas.com/Europe/Ireland/irepol.gif

I am sure, actually, England would ADORE to "give it back" - having been bombed to buggery and paid all those troops to try to keep the two lots of Irish apart - and suffered reasonably heavy losses doing so - and suffered the brutalisation of those forces and its intelligence and police folk in fighting the internal terrorism and helped mop up the dead folk and all that. I suspect they don't want to keep it, but are paralysed by the population statistics in northern Ireland and a concern about the results if they do pull out.

There is no gain to them for staying involved in the way they are.

I know what you are doing, Lash - but I think this troll-hare won't run far for you.

Whatever.

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You must think you're very clever.

I'm having a sincere conversation about a matter close to my heart--one I've had a couple of times over the past few years here.

I don't know what conpiracies are broiling around in your head--but they are yours alone.

Your statement:

So - all we whities and the other races who are not native to all those continents are going back where we came from , are we, and giving them back?

is a little crazy. If you insist on jumping in to conversations with me, at least read about what is being said.

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So - what are you suggesting the English should do in Northern Ireland?

And what - if we do not profit by genocide and we should give back land stolen by our ancestors - are you suggesting should be done in the new world?

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Lash wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
Lash wrote:

Since the Reformation, Northern Ireland had been a Protestant nation. But Northern Ireland's native people were Catholic.

You might not be aware of it but this is true for ALL parts of Europe (where now is an evangelical/protestestant region).

Walter--

The Catholics who lived in the area called Northern Ireland didn't convert. Their land was stolen from them by the British and given to Protestants--one of the many things they did to affect Irish genocide.

Hamburger--

You are correct, IMO, to draw comparisons to the Native Americans. There is an undeniable parallel. Neither the US, nor the Protestants in Northern Ireland can pack up and leave. Though it has been a disaster of epic proportions, the Native Americans have been given their own brand of self-determination.

Comparing this to the situation in Ireland, of course no one expects anyone to pack up and leave there. But, giving them their own brand of self-determination would be the right thing to do, IMO.

Steve-- If you don't mind indulging me--knowing what Cromwell did to the Irish, how can he be a hero?

And, I would be happy and relieved to move on from the Plantationists--if they weren't still acheiving their goal of keeping the Irish down. I think they're still suffering discrimination.

But, I've had my yearly rant about it.

...and only ONE PAGE back, too.

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Lash wrote:

Though it has been a disaster of epic proportions, the Native Americans have been given their own brand of self-determination.

Don't you think that, in comparison, the Brits did fare better than the, well, occupiers of the new world?

The native Americans once owned all of the Americas. How much do they own now? How independent are they now? Which brand of self-determination is more disastrous: the one we've seen and see in Ireland, or the one we see in the Americas? Please, enlighten us!

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The Irish deserve to have their sovereignty.

The Plantationists who were settled there in order to displace and kill off the Irish are still getting their way. The Irish still haven't recieved their sovereignty.

The Native Americans have.

As I said previously--no one can expect either to ship off to other locales. But, the Irish are still held under British rule and under the thumb of the people who were given their land.

Why refuse the Irish sovereignty over the land they occupy? Please enlighten us!!

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One event changes attitude in UK-----how strange

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