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Politics and Personal Relationships

 
 
snood
 
Reply Sun 20 Sep, 2020 08:37 am
I got into a prickly exchange in another thread - and it touched on the issue in this thread’s title.
Now, while I enjoy a good contentious back-and-forth as well as anyone (maybe even more. Maybe too much.) this particular piece of discussion got me thinking there might be enough there to start a new thread with.

In my opinion (that’s admittedly bolstered mostly by a bunch of personal anecdotes ), there have been a lot of people that had a lot of disruption in their personal relationships - stemming entirely from the election of 45 in 2016. I experienced a change in the way I interact with people who revealed that they voted for him. I say revealed because I believe some people I know are 45 supporters but will never admit it.

I’ve come to think that differences over social/political issues can be legitimate cause for some disruption of personal relationships. Especially the kinds of differences between people who support 45, and those who do not. I say especially because of the size and weight of the differences at hand.

A couple of quick for instances,
One side tends to believe that BLM was a necessary reaction to centuries of oppression and brutality that is ongoing.
While the other side tends to refer to BLM as a criminal movement of people intent on destruction.
One side tends to see the economy of the US as a game that has purposefully been rigged to aid those with wealth and power, and disenfranchise those without.
One side tends to see the US economy as basically fair, and that the only obstacles to prosperity are the limits of one’s personal drive and ambition.

And that’s only TWO. There are literally at least a dozen more just as daunting.

I submit that it is not natural for two people in a friendship or other close relationship to simply “agree to disagree” about ALL these things, and go blithely on without it changing the relationship.

I submit that every healthy human relationship- even under the best, most pristine of circumstances, experiences some type of conflict from time to time. How could it not?

I’ll be as clear as I can...
I can’t reconcile the notion that someone who is a good and decent person can be someone who supports a man as vile as 45 and all the vile white nationalism, vile misogyny and personal vileness he represents.
It is in my thoughts when I interact with them, and if I interact with them long enough, it will be expressed in my words.

How could it not?

And beyond that, shouldn’t those kinds of differences be aired out?

I get the idea of the right time and place. It’s just that I can’t believe that these things don’t fester in the silence and the dark.

I like peace and harmony, too. But not when it’s at the expense of truth.
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Sep, 2020 09:06 am
How about, "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it?" This is inconsistent with the idea that half the country is doing something unspeakably vile.
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Sep, 2020 09:11 am
@Brandon9000,
I hear you. And what you said has merit.

I would only answer that I don’t think of people I know as being vile, but by enabling something vile they become implicit in the vileness.

My thoughts and feelings in this matter undoubtedly have their root in the fact that I see this current situation as unprecedented. And we can agree to disagree- about that.
Brandon9000
 
  2  
Reply Sun 20 Sep, 2020 09:25 am
@snood,
Agreed.
0 Replies
 
justaguy2
 
  2  
Reply Sun 20 Sep, 2020 09:38 am
@snood,
Since a post I just made seems relevant here in this thread, here it is: https://able2know.org/topic/355218-4762#post-7060232

(the last comment in the linked post may or may not be particularly relevant though)
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Sep, 2020 09:45 am
@justaguy2,
Thanks, man. I saw and replied on the other thread, but I’ll repeat it here.

It’s certainly not that I think everyone that votes for Trump is as vile as Trump.

It’s just that I can’t reconcile how they can enable and thus be complicit in the vileness.
justaguy2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Sep, 2020 10:06 am
@snood,
I replied to that already before I saw your above post in this thread, so to save me from having to type it all out again, here's the link: https://able2know.org/topic/355218-4762#post-7060240
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Sep, 2020 10:45 am
@snood,
Quote:
I can’t reconcile the notion that someone who is a good and decent person can be someone who supports a man as vile as 45 and all the vile white nationalism, vile misogyny and personal vileness he represents.

Single issue voters are one case in point. Again, I'll give an example I posted the other day. This guy I buy lobsters from — we're not close friends but I've never had any ill will towards him and we've always been on good terms — he's voting for Trump. The only thing he cares about is the f*cking capital gains tax. While I think this dumb, it's not going cause me to begin treating him disdainfully or boycott his business. But when someone's obviously swallowed the whole septic cocktail of Trumpism — anti-mask, QAnon, "lock her up", anti-reproductive rights, "law and order", profits over people, political christianism, climate change denial, etc — well, that's a different story. The thing is, I doubt that I would have gotten to know anyone like that well enough to ever consider them a friend or even someone with whom I can do business, unlike the acquaintance in my example.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Sep, 2020 11:16 am
For me, it depends on the person. I have in-laws who I consider to be complete assholes. They support Trump. They also hold attitudes that I would consider to be racist even without Trump.

I have a friend at work who is libertarian. He supported Trump in 2016 because he feels the Democrats are a risk to business and his idea of freedom in the economy.

To me, there is a big difference.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Sep, 2020 11:27 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I have in-laws who I consider to be complete assholes. They support Trump. They also hold attitudes that I would consider to be racist even without Trump.


Something doesn’t sound right here. You claimed to be divorced and that your ex wife was black.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Sep, 2020 12:01 pm
@izzythepush,
Hi Izzy.

1. My ex-wife has never been black. You are making that up (or do you have a link).

2. When. I talk about in-laws here. I mean relationships by marriage .. not through my wife. My sister's husband is an inlaw.

3. Why are you picking this childish fight anyway?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Sep, 2020 12:03 pm
@maxdancona,
I wasn’t making anything up.

You certainly gave that impression.

How about your son, is he still black?
McGentrix
 
  0  
Reply Sun 20 Sep, 2020 12:06 pm
@maxdancona,
Because Izzythepush wants to lick your ass. He loves you and is infatuated with you like a lost puppy.

Just like he is me. Watch the next comment he makes about me. Will be something like "At least I am not infatuated with dead children" or some other bit of idiocy.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sun 20 Sep, 2020 12:12 pm
@izzythepush,
Stop being an asshole Izzy.

For the record, my ex-wife is Mexican. My son is Hispanic. He is adopted, not my biological son. And none of this has anything to do with my opinion on this topic.

There is no reason for you to act this way, and no reason for you to drag my family into whatever personal problems you have with me.

You are picking a fight with me over nothing.


izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Sep, 2020 12:35 pm
@maxdancona,
You just said your in laws were racist. I wasn’t trying to drag your family into anything I was responding to something you’d just said.



0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sun 20 Sep, 2020 02:39 pm
@snood,
I am not sure that I buy the claim there are two sides. You don't have to be 100% on either of the "sides"... and I suspect that many of us aren't actually completely on one side if we are honest.

There are a number of people who believe there is a history of racial oppression that is ongoing, but are not ready to support the BLM movement. There reasons that people might be repulsed by the BLM movement from the disrespect of the flag, the the acceptance of looting as a valid form of protest.

It is important to look for common ground. Family relationships are not relationships you chose. If you want these relationships to work, you need to be a little flexible.

If you are unable to have a respectful dialog with someone who supports Trump (or someone who doesn't support Trump) there is very good chance you are missing something. You are starting and ending with your own ideas with no chance to actually find out what the other person actually thinks.
Sturgis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Sep, 2020 02:57 pm
@snood,
As you're aware from my postings over the years, my own political leanings are occasionally further to one side or the other. A prime example being the Presidential elections of 2000 and 2004 when I marked the ballot for George W.Bush. It was the only Presidential election that I ever went Republican. Mind you, I have voted Republican for other elected folks. (although never in gubernatorial or mayoral runs)

Oh, right, the points.

For the most part I have been able to clearly indicate what tipped my vote in a particular direction. That is what I use as a gauge for deciding who I am able to maintain a friendship with.

When it came to the current President, I actually knew of (in real life, not internet life) only one person who was pro-Trump. That is, one person who openly stated his thoughts. He was also strongly anti-Clinton. On the other hand, he was not particularly pro-gun rights. He additionally was for the most part, open minded and accepting of others, regardless of their gender, race, lifestyle choices.

My relationship with him essentially hinged on not discussing politics. We talked along those lines, prior to the election and for a short time after. Then on, only about other things.

He exited earthly existence, last year in January.

Living in a part of NYC which leans to the left, it's rare to cross paths or swords with people who apparently have no heart. They are not people that would intentionally hang out with. Not even for a cup of coffee. (Unless they were at risk of picking up or inflicting harm to themselves)

0 Replies
 
Sturgis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Sep, 2020 03:05 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
BLM...
...disrespect of the flag...


Which always makes me wonder why the sanctimonious jerks are against BLM on that front. Many of these against BLM parade around in t-shirts, shorts, dresses, other clothing, including bandanas and now face-masks which have the image of the American flag. That is in and of itself a violation of flag code. Two-faced hypocrites are in my mind, worse than a character in love with Trump policies.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Sep, 2020 10:34 am
@maxdancona,
Apparently truth and honesty and good character don't mean shut to you and most republicans or you and they couldent possibly vote for Trump.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 21 Sep, 2020 11:15 am
I am an 84 year old white male. Most of my close friends are also older white men...most of whom are also golfers.

I work 2 days a week at a county golf course in one of the richest, most conservative counties in America...and since free golf is one of the perks of employment, I play golf at one of our five courses regularly...with very conservative individuals.

Snood, a first class asshole, feels a need to call me "a mealy-mouthed hypocritical liar" because I am not willing to give up my friendships with these folk.

Hey...no problemo. Snood lives a very unhappy, disgruntled life...so if calling me those things makes life even a tiny bit more comfortable for him...I say, "Let him. Costs me nothing...and I can still think of him as a full-of-**** asshole."

SNOOD...here ya go old friend. Maybe one of these two guys will help you feel a little better:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQWa-3Qo24jdQ0mnPzljZ7ydChppHpK3vm4-A&usqp=CAU
 

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