0
   

Torn between two jobs, feeling like a fool.....

 
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jul, 2007 07:42 pm
msolga wrote:
Sounds an incredibly laborious & tedious process. I guess you wouldn't be applying for jobs all that often, if this is what they expect? How much does word of mouth, from the professional grapevine in your field, count?



Well, as you know, it's all supposed to be on the merit of application and interview.


In my previous organisation, for a while, certain Powerful People had insisted upon appointing people they wanted, against the wishes of the entire rest of the selection committee.


The referees can count quite a lot if people are hard to separate.


Here, if someone they know and like applies, they are also likely to have more management experience than I, and more direct infant mental health experience....both of which I am weak on.


Thomas wrote:
dlowan wrote:
How's your hunt going?

Missed out on a pretty good job. Searching employer websites for new prey to stalk. I'll get there eventually.

Practical question: is your cover letter really supposed to address job offer lyrics like: "dynamic initiative-taker, innovative thinker, excellent commuication skills required ..." (a tough requirement because in real life, I usually communicate by drumming my fists on my chests while howling.) Until now, I discretely ignored language like this as content-free semantic noise. Was that a mistake? Would it have been a mistake for you to ignore most of the noise on your 20 pages?




Lol! The intro letter! There is huge debate. Some think you say almost nothing, and let your stunning CV speak for itself, others that you sell yourself in it.


I do a one shortish one pager, just pointing out briefly what I bring to the job, and touching on why I want to be in the new position.


I am no expert.



And yes, I had to address the "noise" or my application would simply have been ditched.


Good luck in the hunt!





I am not really hunting, but if something I am really interested in comes up from time to time, I will likely go for it.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jul, 2007 08:34 pm
Thomas wrote:
Practical question: is your cover letter really supposed to address job offer lyrics like: "dynamic initiative-taker, innovative thinker, excellent commuication skills required ..." (a tough requirement because in real life, I usually communicate by drumming my fists on my chests while howling.) Until now, I discretely ignored language like this as content-free semantic noise. Was that a mistake? Would it have been a mistake for you to ignore most of the noise on your 20 pages?


Generally, the resume/cover letter is reviewed by someone who has a list. That list has that 'noise' - the screeners are looking for words/phrases that are on the list they've been given. If possible - get at least half of the phrases into the cover - and repeat them and the balance in the resume/c.v. itself. And I mean the exact phrase. You've gotta make it easy for the screeners to spot the candidate that best matches their list.

In the day of the hard-copy cover and resume, I'd even put the 'noise' in a half-tone bold. Made the resumes work like heat-seeking bullets - never missed their targets.

If you're feeling really energetic - make your 'noise' match their list in the order noted in the job description/ad. It's sometimes tricky making the cover/resume flow with that additional requirement - but it works. The screener will put you right on top of the stack of their recommendations - "he's got EVERYTHING you're looking for".
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2007 10:08 am
Thomas, the "noise" Beth is talking about is key words, and a lot of companies have programs designed to match 'em. Resumes are stacked in match percentage order. So if you match everything, you're at the top. Er, with everyone else who's done that. But at least you're at the 100% mark. Then they have to actually start thinking about the candidates. Oh, and in the US, the cover letter is used to help sell your candidacy, particularly if you can talk about something specific between your experience and the posted job (e. g. when I was at Frangistat Corporation, we had a widget problem similar to yours. I first created a ...)

Deb -- I take it that the 20-page application is also designed to keep people from job-hopping, and it's probably rather effective in that area. Can any of it (I know you've already done it, just thinking for the future) be copied and pasted from application to application? E. g. your college experience probably has not changed significantly since you last looked for work. And I also suspect that the form is not to be handwritten. Hence you could save some of the phrases and whatnot in a Word file and copy/paste them as needed. It would not fit everything but at least some of the work could be automated that way, yes?

Good luck to both of you.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2007 06:43 pm
jespah wrote:
Thomas, the "noise" Beth is talking about is key words, and a lot of companies have programs designed to match 'em. Resumes are stacked in match percentage order. So if you match everything, you're at the top. Er, with everyone else who's done that. But at least you're at the 100% mark. Then they have to actually start thinking about the candidates. Oh, and in the US, the cover letter is used to help sell your candidacy, particularly if you can talk about something specific between your experience and the posted job (e. g. when I was at Frangistat Corporation, we had a widget problem similar to yours. I first created a ...)

Deb -- I take it that the 20-page application is also designed to keep people from job-hopping, and it's probably rather effective in that area. Can any of it (I know you've already done it, just thinking for the future) be copied and pasted from application to application? E. g. your college experience probably has not changed significantly since you last looked for work. And I also suspect that the form is not to be handwritten. Hence you could save some of the phrases and whatnot in a Word file and copy/paste them as needed. It would not fit everything but at least some of the work could be automated that way, yes?

Good luck to both of you.



No, the noise isn't designed to stop job hopping. It's actually designed to describe the skills needed in the job in detail, and to make it easier to see who has them and who doesn't....it's all part of equal opportunity stuff...designed to try and make selection more objective.


Also, there won't be someone streamlining for the selection committee...and there certainly won't be any computer involvement....they all read all the applications....and talk about them. There won't be that many. The whole committee decides who they will interview. And they'll be looking for meaning of content, not repetition of key words. The process you describe may well occur in big businesses here, I have no idea, but it certainly doesn't occur anywhere in my profession, and those allied to it.


Yes, normally I would have my CV on computer, and just add to it.

However, the floppy I had it on could no longer be read by any computer I had access to by the time I went for the last job! Last time, I actually photocopied most of it from a secondment I went for ages ago, and wrote up the more recent stuff.


This time I re typed the whole thing and saved it at work and at home. But even that will have to be changed for the next job...you slant it differently for different jobs. And add to it regularly, of course!


You can't really preprocess anything else....each job is pretty different, and you have to address the minutia of each different job. I could maybe have reused some of the multi disciplinary team stuff, but it's as easy to re do it as copy and paste.


Of course, I copy the list of stuff they want you to have, that they want you to address, and type under those headings.


Here, it's short cover letter, detailed CV (mine's about 11 pages, I think, and I shortened it for this job), and detailed responses to the personal specifications list.


As I said, mine should have been a lot longer and more detailed....sigh.....



That is my ambivalence speaking.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jul, 2007 01:06 am
Ladies, thank you for alerting me that the noise matters. I hadn't thought of computerized keyword searches, and will adjust my tactics accordingly now that I know about them. (And if it's a computer doing the searching, maybe I could even write "I am so not an innovative thinker" etc., and the keyword search would still bump me up because it found the keyword. Right?)
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jul, 2007 02:07 am
dlowan wrote:
msolga wrote:
Sounds an incredibly laborious & tedious process. I guess you wouldn't be applying for jobs all that often, if this is what they expect? How much does word of mouth, from the professional grapevine in your field, count?



Well, as you know, it's all supposed to be on the merit of application and interview.


I do know that, but (as I'm sure you'd know :wink:) it is not always the way things go!

I'm hoping in your case, Deb, that proper procedures are followed.

Good luck!
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jul, 2007 04:02 pm
msolga wrote:
dlowan wrote:
msolga wrote:
Sounds an incredibly laborious & tedious process. I guess you wouldn't be applying for jobs all that often, if this is what they expect? How much does word of mouth, from the professional grapevine in your field, count?



Well, as you know, it's all supposed to be on the merit of application and interview.


I do know that, but (as I'm sure you'd know :wink:) it is not always the way things go!

I'm hoping in your case, Deb, that proper procedures are followed.

Good luck!



Oh, I suspect they will be.


The only thing is if there is a candidate from within...you can almost never blitz them if they have a reasonable amount of experience, because they know the ins and outs of the job way better than you ever can...but they didn't appoint Helen from within.


I have much better relevant theory knowledge than she did, but no management experience.


If they get someone with management experience and a better theoretical knowledge, or more actual infant mental health practice, then I don't stand a chance.

And that is perfectly fair.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 03:20 am
Do you ever feel like your job is just too hard, and you don't want it any more?



That is I tonight.




Any takers?



Oz is gooooooooooooood!
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 03:38 am
dlowan wrote:
Do you ever feel like your job is just too hard, and you don't want it any more?


No.

But I feel for you...
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 03:57 am
dlowan wrote:
Do you ever feel like your job is just too hard, and you don't want it any more?



That is I tonight.




Any takers?



Oz is gooooooooooooood!


Too frenzied actually. Hang on, I'll make a topic.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 04:44 am
dlowan wrote:
Any takers?

Of your job? Sorry, I'm not the warm, nurturing type. If one of your children walked into my room my diagnosis would be short: "You're neurotic. Next!"

Your patients are very lucky they have you instead of me.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 06:01 am
dlowan wrote:
Do you ever feel like your job is just too hard, and you don't want it any more?



That is I tonight.




Any takers?



Oz is gooooooooooooood!


Just wondering, Deb .... Are you under extra pressure at work at the moment or are you just feeling a bit jaded? You know, the type of jadeness that passes fairly quickly. I ask because normally you sound much more positive & engaged with your work. Perhaps you're just tired or run-down at the moment?


In answer to your first question, though: Yes, I have felt that way in the past. Some jobs are just plain too demanding to work at 5 days a week, year after year, without burning out .... I'm glad I'm not doing that any more, even if I am as broke as a church mouse. But when I win Tatts I'll be laughing! :wink:
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 09:15 am
Thomas wrote:
dlowan wrote:
Any takers?

Of your job? Sorry, I'm not the warm, nurturing type. If one of your children walked into my room my diagnosis would be short: "You're neurotic. Next!"

Your patients are very lucky they have you instead of me.




I don't see neurotics.


I don't see the worried well, I see the weally wooted.


I'M the one who's neurotic!



msolga wrote:
dlowan wrote:
Do you ever feel like your job is just too hard, and you don't want it any more?



That is I tonight.




Any takers?



Oz is gooooooooooooood!


Just wondering, Deb .... Are you under extra pressure at work at the moment or are you just feeling a bit jaded? You know, the type of jadeness that passes fairly quickly. I ask because normally you sound much more positive & engaged with your work. Perhaps you're just tired or run-down at the moment?


In answer to your first question, though: Yes, I have felt that way in the past. Some jobs are just plain too demanding to work at 5 days a week, year after year, without burning out .... I'm glad I'm not doing that any more, even if I am as broke as a church mouse. But when I win Tatts I'll be laughing!



Good, I'd like to see a cat laugh.



And, to answer YOUR question, I am a bit jaded right now, but the precipitant for this moan was just an awful session I had at the end of the day. Where I used to work, there'd always be plenty of people still around to debrief with, unless you finished REALLY late, but there aren't where I am now.


I kind of do highs and lows anyway, and I am having an "everything I touch is turning to ****" kind of month.

But this was just an unexpectedly dramatic...er...well...drama, with a situation I had thought was settling, and I could begin to bow out of, with a foster mother who appeared to be being extremely aggressive and nasty, but said that she was just upset (I can see how the kid can't tell the difference, she nearly blew me out of the room!) and a kid who was devastated, but won't, yet, agree to let me help him deal with something the carer did that she shouldn't really, but was pretty understandable in the circumstances.


I think she WAS just upset, but I think she reacts in an over the top way that does harm without her realising the extent of the harm. And I doubt she'll listen to me or anyone else.


Anyhoo, it was just completely unexpected, and I was exhausted anyway.


And I am way too busy and over extended. But that's pretty much par for the course in my area, and most these days, I think. Shrugs.




How's your long term plan going?


I worry about the church mouse thing, though I believe I read, in a book about Benjamin Franklin's Mouse, that some nourishment is to be found in leather bible covers and tallow candles, if that helps!
0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 09:29 am
A massage might be good deb book yourself in.

Do you have a support network you can unburden to?... besides us I mean.... were good I know ... but hardly real.

Mumpad lays it all on me when she gets home Nothing as distressing as your clients I guess but still it helps to unload stuff. I just listen suck it all up and dump it in a paddock somewhere on the way to work the next day. (shrug).
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 10:07 am
dadpad wrote:
A massage might be good deb book yourself in.

Do you have a support network you can unburden to?... besides us I mean.... were good I know ... but hardly real.

Mumpad lays it all on me when she gets home Nothing as distressing as your clients I guess but still it helps to unload stuff. I just listen suck it all up and dump it in a paddock somewhere on the way to work the next day. (shrug).




Really only to people in the same field.

That's why I miss the close team I had before so much.


If you start talking to people who are not used to the daily content, you just make them very distressed and shocked, or you actually traumatise and repel them......so with most of my friends I don't talk about it, except to say a bit re good day or bad day, or interesting tidbits re general stuff that does not breach confidentiality.


Even partners have usually not coped, and I have to be careful re them, as well. I think most folk working with the level of trauma I do (and police and medical folk as well are often the same, I think) do not share a lot with people outside the field.

The theoretical bases I am working from take forever and ever to explain, as well, and I teach so much about trauma and its effects on kids, and how to work with it, and with systems etc, so that they could understand what I am crapping on about, that I would bore the **** out of myself doing the same with non colleague friends, unless they are very interested.


I do write a bit about it here, from time to time, if I have the energy, for people who ask about particular issues, becaues (at least for me) it's endlessly fascinating and illuminating (the theories and research stuff I mean)...or I might write a bit for folk with anxiety problems (That's all gathered on some thread somewhere).

Believe me, I don't tell you lot bupkis! It's just nice to say oh ****, sometimes, here, without having to expend the energy I have to to unload in depth with some poor therapist friend.

As I said above, in my view, most of this type of stuff ought to happen naturally within one's team, and I think it a sad failing in my current one that it doesn't....and certainly not just for me.

I am kind of doing what I can to make it happen more (eg demonstrating fearlessness in presenting stuff where I feel really at a loss or made mistakes...since a lot of the lack of sharing seems to be about people feeling terrified to expose uncertainty for fear of being jumped on or thought badly of etc.) and I discuss concerns with management about people struggling with cases that are really destroying them.....but our management seems to be in a permanent state of crisis itself, and we are so many staff short, that I understand their problems in addressing more up the hierarchy from basic survival sorts of issues.


Mind you, I think a lot of that applies to most jobs.


If Jes needs to debrief re her day, I can get the level of frustration and busyness, but I can't really appreciate her day well, because I don't really understand what her job involves. She'd likely get much better relief from someone who can go "Oh yes, I KNOW!!! Those widgets flocculating in the ersatzerium get me every time too!"


Same with you, DP....I bet if you have a really complex work problem, it is far better aired with someone else who knows intimately what you are talking about.....I think most jobs have their arcane fellowships of sufferings and joys, that can really be shared only with others of similar ilk.


BTW, doesn't mumpad work with aboriginal communities? I can't imagine her job could be less traumatic than mine.



Good on you for listening in detail without flinching.
0 Replies
 
margo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 09:07 pm
dlowan wrote:
Do you ever feel like your job is just too hard, and you don't want it any more?



That is I tonight.




Any takers?



Oz is gooooooooooooood!


Most of the time!

Wanna swap!

Do I have to commute to Adelaide?

I understand your comment on de-briefing - so important when your job is stressful - and you can't really unload on people who aren't across the same sort of stress (one reason I no longer do MedInfo!)
0 Replies
 
Roberta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 11:33 pm
deb querida, Sorry you had an especially trying day. I remember my old corporate days. It always helped to have someone to talk to about what was happening without having to explain things. Same language, same common work experience, etc. Sorry you're missing that. I think it can be a help.

Anything happening with the job you applied for?
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 11:41 pm
margo wrote:
dlowan wrote:
Do you ever feel like your job is just too hard, and you don't want it any more?



That is I tonight.




Any takers?



Oz is gooooooooooooood!


Most of the time!

Wanna swap!

Do I have to commute to Adelaide?

I understand your comment on de-briefing - so important when your job is stressful - and you can't really unload on people who aren't across the same sort of stress (one reason I no longer do MedInfo!)



You don't do MedInfo?


Wotchew doing instead?



Roberta wrote:
deb querida, Sorry you had an especially trying day. I remember my old corporate days. It always helped to have someone to talk to about what was happening without having to explain things. Same language, same common work experience, etc. Sorry you're missing that. I think it can be a help.

Anything happening with the job you applied for?



Not so far, Boida.


You never know if that means anything, or not.



I'd pretty much forgotten I even applied for my current job by the time they wrote to me to come in for an interview.
0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Aug, 2007 04:35 am
Quote:
BTW, doesn't mumpad work with aboriginal communities? I can't imagine her job could be less traumatic than mine.


No that would be my sister inlaw. Up in New South. B/law does maintenance at a prison.

Mumpad is community services (local gov) mostly to do with financial issues. helping people go bankrupt (or helping them not). setting up budgets for financially stressed low income earners. Elderly persons, meals on wheels and child care when picking up the slack and admin for the unit. Bit of a Jill of all trades in that area. She gets quite a lot of hard to deal with family stuff as background, but its still kinda arms length where with you its in your face I expect.

Me, I don't have complex problems. Trees and dirt are pretty forgiving really.

I think I've said it before but if you want to unload a bit you can stick it in a PM to me.

We NEED folks like yourself to do what you do.
0 Replies
 
Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Aug, 2007 10:55 am
Dlowan--

Andrew Lang, compiler and editor of the various rainbow fairy books ( The Red Fairy Book, The Green Fairy Book, The Rose Fairy Book....)
had a tender conscience.

Children kept admiring his creativity for "writing" all the traditional fairy stories. Eventually he wrote three fairy stories of his very own, The Adventures of Prince Prigio, The Adventures of Prince Ricardo and The Gold of Fairnlee.

In one of them the enterprising hero crushes a most fiendish monster with a quantity of Stupidity, the heaviest substance in the world.
0 Replies
 
 

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