Honest inquiry into Conservative beliefs & support of Bush

Lash wrote:

Who died and left you hall monitor? It's enough to make me rethink cloning. You and Freddie Mercury.

Nobody died and left anyone hall monitor. It's just that you, like ci and a few others on both sides of the fence, are frustrating the clearly stated purpose of this thread, which was started by a liberal who wants to query peacefully into why conservatives think the way they do. Judging by what Green Witch has said here, she does not wish to discuss whether neoconservatives are liars (ci), nor if the people in charge of the Democrats are do-nothings (you), nor anything of that kind. For name-calling like that, we have a zillion other political threads out there. But the purpose of this thread requires a modicum of peace and trust between the posters on each side of the fence -- so if you want that other kind of discussion in this thread, you are out of line, and so is ci.

This suggests two possible explanations: You might not care about the interests which this thread was created to pursue, which would mean that nothing can be done to make you more considerate. Or you might honestly not know about those intentions, in which case it makes sense to tell you. Atkins has done no more than that. I find the topic of this thread interesting. I hope that remarks like Atkins's succeed in telling at least those who care to know about what this thread is for, and about how not to frustrate its purpose.

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Green Witch,
You asked,so here is my answer.
I do not agree with all of the Bush admin positions,but as a conservative,here are my beliefs...

I am politically conservative. I believe this places me in the minority.

I believe the government that governs least governs best, which is the foundation of
conservative adherents.

I believe the words in the constitution mean what they say. I can read.

I believe individual liberty must be respected in order for this experiment in
self-government to continue.

I believe the toll of freedom is responsibility. Those who fail to act responsibly are not
deserving of freedom.

I believe you ought to pay your own way. Charity begins at home, not in Washington DC.

I believe a country without borders will soon cease to be a country.

I believe you have the inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness ?
whatever that may be.

I believe you should be able to have all the fun you want, just not at someone else's
expense.

I believe in times of peace we should prepare for war.

I believe in equality for all, but not set-asides for some.

I believe we have freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

I believe in individual privacy.

I believe we should be very cautious when discussing or considering banning things.

I believe it is my job, duty and responsibility to raise my children to be responsible and
accountable human beings.

I believe in leaving this country in better condition when I leave it than when I arrived.

I believe it is my civic duty to stand up for what I believe.

I believe that rewarding people for negative or irresponsible behavior only breeds more
negative and irresponsible behavior.

I believe you are the Captain of your own vessel. It is no one else's fault if you run
aground.

I believe capitalism is a positive force on the planet, not a repressive, ugly one.

I believe in working hard to implement what I believe.

I believe success should be rewarded, not punished.

I believe there are people who disagree with my beliefs. I don't believe they are wrong. I
know they are.

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Lola wrote:

Quote:
When you say 'radical right' today, I think of these moneymaking ventures by fellows like Pat Robertson and others who are trying to take the Republican Party away from the Republican Party, and make a religious organization out of it. If that ever happens, kiss politics goodbye.

Brandon,

You say "trying to?" Please look around you. These "fellows," the religious right have taken over the Republican Party. They've been at it for thirty years. The Republicans decided to win by courting the Christian fanatics, and now the real Republicans have no party without them. I think it was Ralph Reed, but I'm not sure and I don't have time to look it up, but Ralph or someone like him said, during some campaign in the 90s, I think it was the 92 said, "we (the religious right) don't have enough votes to win the election alone, but we have enough votes to [cause the Republicans] to lose it." Thanks not an exact quotation, but close. Getting rid of this million pound gorilla will not be easy for any of us.

That's a quotation from someone other than me.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

That's a quotation from someone other than me.

That's true, Brandon. It's a Goldwater quotation I had thrown at you in the context of a question I asked you. Lola misunderstood that. (My question itself is here.)

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mysteryman wrote:

Green Witch,
I believe there are people who disagree with my beliefs. I don't believe they are wrong. I know they are.

Thank you mystery man - I had assumed this place had broken out into a saloon brawl and I popped out for awhile.

I highlighted your last statement because I find it a little unnerving. Couldn't we say this statement could be applied to groups like the Taliban? Do you really want to have a belief system like theirs? Isn't this uncompromising way of thinking the reason people are willing to smash planes into buildings or board civilian buses with bombs strapped to their waste? Why is this a good way to view the world? Why not leave some room for doubt? This fundamentalist way of thinking (be in conservative, liberal, christian, muslim, wiccan, etc) seems to get us into a lot of trouble when you look at the big picture.

I once took a class in debate and the instructor did a very interesting thing. He first screened up for our political and social beliefs - he then assigned up to debate on the opposing side of our beliefs. I was assigned to be The Right to Life Champion (I am pro-choice), but after immersing myself in the RTL reasoning I was able to understand why they feel the way to they do. I gained respect for people I would only argue with in the past. I am still pro-choice, but I can no longer tell the right to life side they are just plain wrong. Perhaps I should start a different thread on understanding other points of view.

Part of the reason I started this thread was because I am incapable of thinking like a Bush supporter and so I asked others to give me their insight. If I was to adopt your last statement into my way of thinking I would have missed out on many interesting ideas. I may not agree with those ideas, but I'm glad we live in country where they can be expressed in public without fear of being sent to a gulag. It also helps me respect people whom I might have just dismissed as "misguided" without giving them a chance to show me who they are on deeper, more human level. I hope they will view me (even when we disagree) with the same respect.

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Green Witch wrote:

I once took a class in debate and the instructor did a very interesting thing. He first screened up for our political and social beliefs - he then assigned up to debate on the opposing side of our beliefs. I was assigned to be The Right to Life Champion (I am pro-choice), but after immersing myself in the RTL reasoning I was able to understand why they feel the way to they do. I gained respect for people I would only argue with in the past. I am still pro-choice, but I can no longer tell the right to life side they are just plain wrong. Perhaps I should start a different thread on understanding other points of view.

Your debate instructor was absolutely correct and I think your idea of starting another thread on understanding other points of view, is excellent. I see no, or very little evidence, of anyone on this forum being interested in understanding opposing points of view-----we all end up shouting past each other......including me.

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rayban1 wrote:

---we all end up shouting past each other...

Able2SHOUT!!! Very Happy

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I'm not a republican, but I agree with mysterman - about 100 percent. I used to be a republican when those values were practiced about two-three decades ago. I'm now a independent.

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Excellent post, Green Witch.

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Thomas wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
That's a quotation from someone other than me.

That's true, Brandon. It's a Goldwater quotation I had thrown at you in the context of a question I asked you. Lola misunderstood that. (My question itself is here.)

Even more to the point then.........look where we are today, right of Goldwater, and fulfilling his far sighted prediction........wow!

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Quote:

but I can no longer tell the right to life side they are just plain wrong. Perhaps I should start a different thread on understanding other points of view.

I agree with you, green witch.......but it's not their points of view about life with which I so strongly disagree, it's their methods having to do with choice. They are all so sure they're right, they will leave no room for any other opinion. And it's all excused based on their religious conviction about the origin and nature of man. They're just concerned for the unborn, don't you know......but is that it really? It seems to me more that they're concerned about maintaining their absolute beliefs than they are about human beings. Violence of all kinds has been excused over the centuries based on one group's opinion of the nature of God.

Could you make an argument for a commitment to blind, punishing authority? Could you construct an argument in support of "this fundamentalist way of thinking (be it conservative, liberal, christian, muslim, wiccan, etc)?" I don't think I could.

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Lash wrote:

Atkins wrote:
Lash wrote:
Says you. I don't consider you a valuable source of information.

I don't want a bunch af indecisive know-nothing Democrats to loll around and when it IS a critical issue, look around for someone to blame.

Greenwitch's rule is broken here.

Who died and left you hall monitor? It's enough to make me rethink cloning. You and Freddie Mercury.

Another non sequitor!

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Mysteryman responded in the spirit in which Greenwitch started this thread.

One point I am trying to make and I believe that Lola and Greenwitch are also trying to make as well is that conservatism can be defined. Some writers here are up in the air about liberals knowing what they think. The liberals are trying to follow the standard definition of conservatism and to apply it to this forum and its contributors.

A personal problem I have with conservatism as it is practiced in the United States was made clear by Mysterman who wrote that he favors individual liberty.

What about birth control and abortion in the context of individual liberty?

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That's the reason why I no longer see Conservatives as conservatives. They are influenced too much by fundamentalist christians, and their intrusion into other people's lives is not conservatism by any meaning of the word.

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I am a moderate "conservative" who isn't swayed by fundamentalist christians. But even they aren't always wrong.

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Atkins wrote:

What about birth control and abortion in the context of individual liberty?

What's wrong with birth control?

As far as abortion, what's wrong with murder ... in the context of individual liberty?

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Green Witch,
Let me explain what I meant.
I DO NOT believe that every other way of thinking or believing is absolutely wrong,nor will I ever say so.

What I meant is that I DO believe that those people that want to turn us into a "nanny state",where the govt takes care of us from cradle to grave,where conservative values like personal responsibility are denigrated,where self reliance is deemed as an aberration instead of the norm,those people are in my opinion wrong in their beliefs.
Of Course,those same people think I am wrong in my beliefs.
The difference is,those people are trying to force their opinions and agenda on everybody else (in my view),and I'm not.

Atkins,
You said..."A personal problem I have with conservatism as it is practiced in the United States was made clear by Mysterman who wrote that he favors individual liberty.

What about birth control and abortion in the context of individual liberty?"

Thats a simple question to answer.
I am personally opposed to abortion,especially when used as a form of birth control.
BUT,I will not try to force you to accept my beliefs or try to force you to agree.
I am pro-choice,I just want the choice to be for life.
If you want to have an abortion,I will try to show you that there are other options.But,if you decide to have one anyway,while I dont agree,I will accept your decision and not try to make you feel guilty or to force you not to.
That is your decision to make,not mine.

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Green Witch couldn't have explained it any better, and I agree with her Conservative Beliefs. If the republicans have stuck with the "real" Conservative Agenca, I'd probably still be a republican.

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mysteryman wrote:

What I meant is that I DO believe that those people that want to turn us into a "nanny state",where the govt takes care of us from cradle to grave,where conservative values like personal responsibility are denigrated,where self reliance is deemed as an aberration instead of the norm,those people are in my opinion wrong in their beliefs.
Of Course,those same people think I am wrong in my beliefs.
The difference is,those people are trying to force their opinions and agenda on everybody else (in my view),and I'm not.

You have a basic disconnect in operation here, MM. Although there are extremists who might favor something like your perceived "nanny state," it is not correct to assume that people who support state welfare programs are in favor of programs as you describe them. It is not only entirely possible, it is true that many people support the concept of aid to dependent children, and oppose "welfare cheaters" and those who have children simply to qualify for more benefits.

What is even worse about your castigation of those with whom you disagree is your assumption that self-reliance is denigrated, and perceived as an aberration. It does not automatically follow that those who support programs such as aid to dependent children do not believe in self-reliance.

This is the crux of anger in political debate--rather than simply note that you oppose public welfare, you indulge in a fanatasy of polar opposition to all that you believe on the part of those who disagree with you on that issue. You aren't meeting people half-way, you are simply assuming that if someone doesn't agree with you in every particular, that you can state with assurance that they hold an entire array of beliefs worthy of your contempt. That certainly will never lead to understanding between people from different political points of view.

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Good point, Set, as always. I'm a far-left liberal when it comes to some benefits provided by governments, and that includes universal health insurance for all - espeically our children.

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Honest inquiry into Conservative beliefs & support of Bush

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