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Honest inquiry into Conservative beliefs & support of Bush

 
 
Atkins
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 10:31 am
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
If you're referring to me... I'm openly conservative... and proud of it.


Why?
0 Replies
 
Atkins
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 10:35 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
I don't know about you guys, but I used to be a "republican" many decades ago when their philosophy of small government, less government intrusions, freedoms guaranteed by our Bill of Rights and Constitution, and "conservatism" really meant "Conservatism." How many Americans can still claim to be "republicans" today is a BIG MYSTERY, because I don't see much "Conservatism" being practiced.


Thank you for saying what many of us have wondered for some time.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 10:38 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
I don't know about you guys, but I used to be a "republican" many decades ago when their philosophy of small government, less government intrusions, freedoms guaranteed by our Bill of Rights and Constitution, and "conservatism" really meant "Conservatism." How many Americans can still claim to be "republicans" today is a BIG MYSTERY, because I don't see much "Conservatism" being practiced.


Are you saying you consider yourself a "Conservative"?
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Atkins
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 10:43 am
Before I write anything, let me clearly state that I do not have academic experience in either political science or political philosophy.

However, a couple of writers demand that Greenwitch and EhBeth defend their definitions of conservative thought. Perhaps, they have the academic experience I lack, but, please, give them respect.

I have heard the definitions they state.
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Atkins
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 10:44 am
Lash wrote:
Says you. I don't consider you a valuable source of information.

I don't want a bunch af indecisive know-nothing Democrats to loll around and when it IS a critical issue, look around for someone to blame.


Greenwitch's rule is broken here.
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jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 10:44 am
Atkins wrote:
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
If you're referring to me... I'm openly conservative... and proud of it.


Why?


Why what?
0 Replies
 
Atkins
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 10:47 am
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
Atkins wrote:
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
If you're referring to me... I'm openly conservative... and proud of it.


Why?


Why what?


Stop playing games.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 10:48 am
I'm not playing games. Are you asking why I'm conservative or are you asking why I'm proud of it?
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rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 11:26 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Lash, FLASH! There is no emergency in Social Security. Past administrations have "talked" about the need to address social security, but Bush makes it sound as if it needs to be handled during his term. Not true; it needs to be handled 'soon,' but it's not a CRITICAL ISSUE compared to many other needs of our citizens.



I also have been reading with interest and have not yet decided to throw in my "2 cents" worth. If I do, my comments will have as a basis, idealism and pragmatism, instead of conservative or liberal.

OK.....I have just decided to comment and I'm using a post from C.I. as my starting point. His post points out a fundamental difference in at least my understanding of our differences.

Most Democrats deny there is a problem with Social Security.

C.I wrote:
Lash, FLASH, there is no emergency in Social Security.


Greenspan, who I would trust with my life, says there is a problem with SS and it must be addressed sooner than than later.

I do agree that personal savings accounts do nothing to fix the estimated insolvency problem but I think this was a tactic (like asking for a million dollars but hoping to compromise on 500,000) to draw attention to and to create enough controversy to force it to the top of priority list.

Bush wants as part of his legacy, to be known as the president who prevented SS from becoming bankrupt.......can you blame him?

I agree with Greenspan that NOW is the time to fix it but I see the Democratic obstructionism as just a selfish move to prevent Bush from getting the credit for fixing it.........thus furthering my impression that Democrats are just playing politics with every issue.

Another fundamental difference is the war in Iraq. I, and many Americans believe going to war in Iraq was the right thing to do. Many, Many Democrats believed the same thing and voted for the funding. After many mistakes have been exposed and the war is becoming unpopular due to mostly unparalleled criticism and cynicism from the MSM, the Democrats have decided that it is in their best interests to make every effort to make certain we fail in Iraq. Again they are just playing politics with a war effort.

The bottom line here is that the reasons for the war are now irrelevant, and the mistakes that were made, and they were many, have largely been corrected and it is now time to put the interests of this country in the forefront and make every effort to win the war instead of the Dean strategy of making every effort to cause failure in the war effort.

Can we at least agree here that it is evident that most Democrats, all liberals and all idealists would be happy to see us pull out of Iraq immediately which would indicate the Bush policy has failed, vindicating their initial opposition to the war. This is the impression I get.....is it wrong?

I think Democrats see the war in Iraq as the big reason they lost the election and ..... IF.....they can cause a failure in the war, they will be vindicated and the public will support their candidates in the next election.
Can anyone refute my thinking?

This is enough for now.......if there is support for my thinking I will be back with more.

rayban
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 11:33 am
Ray
Quote:
I agree with Greenspan that NOW is the time to fix it but I see the Democratic obstructionism as just a selfish move to prevent Bush from getting the credit for fixing it.........thus furthering my impression that Democrats are just playing politics with every issue.


How can you say this when just a few sentences earlier, you state:

Quote:
I do agree that personal savings accounts do nothing to fix the estimated insolvency problem but I think this was a tactic (like asking for a million dollars but hoping to compromise on 500,000) to draw attention to and to create enough controversy to force it to the top of priority list.


Democrats, time and time again, have stated that they would be more than willing to sit down at the negotiating table as long as privatization accounts are removed from the discussion. But Bush and Rove won't budge on the issue, and that is why you don't see any new movement on the issue these days.

How can Dems be obstructionist for not supporting a plan which, in your opinion, won't do anything to help the solvency of SS when the goal is to help the solvency of SS? They aren't being obstuctionist, they are doing their job and not approving a plan which, in your own words, won't work.

Now what we see these days is Republicans proposing plans with no Privatization involved, and they have been solidly criticized by the WH for doing so. And that's Democratic obstructionism?

Quote:
Can we at least agree here that it is evident that most Democrats, all liberals and all idealists would be happy to see us pull out of Iraq immediately which would indicate the Bush policy has failed, vindicating their initial opposition to the war. This is the impression I get.....is it wrong?

I think Democrats see the war in Iraq as the big reason they lost the election and ..... IF.....they can cause a failure in the war, they will be vindicated and the public will support their candidates in the next election.
Can anyone refute my thinking?


Jesus, Ray. I just want my friend Chuck to come back from Iraq without a piece of shrapnel in his goddamn head. This war isn't a game or political struggle, real people are dying every day; this is what we want to end.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 12:02 pm
Cy wrote:
Jesus, Ray. I just want my friend Chuck to come back from Iraq without a piece of shrapnel in his goddamn head. This war isn't a game or political struggle, real people are dying every day; this is what we want to end.


I can certainly understand your concern for your friend but it's a very selfish and short sighted reason for pulling out all the troops immediately. I think you and all those who favor immediate pullout , have absolutely no inkling of the consequences if we fail in Iraq.

1. There would be immediate civil war within Iraq and if you complain about Iraqis being killed thus far, it would be miniscule compared to the number killed in a civil war. Remember that in our civil war 600,000 died.

2. Iraq would immediately become a Taliban type state where Al Queda would have unlimited ability to train and grow.

Is that enough just for starters?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 12:21 pm
When did I say we should pull out immediately?

I favor a timetable approach. I don't see how it is any different from annoucing that we are going to attack Fallujah 2 months in advance or announcing Operation Lightining a week in advance, both of which we did.

I think that if we were honest and levelled with the Iraqi people that we are leaving, and if they want to take care of their problems they had better start getting ready to, then they would actually start getting ready to do so...

What about the other part of my post; do you still believe that the Dems are playing politics by opposing a plan that you yourself say won't help the proposed problem?

Cycloptichorn
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 12:37 pm
Cyclo, Of coarse, the neocons would always presume things we don't say, and assume the worst scenario. When we say we were against this war, they say we're not supporting our troops. When we say we would like some idea of when our troops can come home, they say that would start a civil war in Iraq, and give the insurgents to just wait it out. What they don't say is how they are going to 1) secure the borders to limit the inflow of more insurgents into Iraq, 2) why our military failed to secure the weapons that are now being used against us and the Iraqis, 3) why the generals aren't asking for more troops, and 4) what "stay the course" means. "Stay the course" is no plan. Maybe they miss that simple logic.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 01:56 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
When did I say we should pull out immediately?

I favor a timetable approach. I don't see how it is any different from annoucing that we are going to attack Fallujah 2 months in advance or announcing Operation Lightining a week in advance, both of which we did.


It is very much different. We gave advance warning to Fallujah in order to give civilians who wanted to get out, time to get out.

Giving a "timetable" on when we are going to leave Iraq would be stupid, for all the reasons Bush said the other night.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 01:57 pm
c.i.: I'm still waiting anxiously to find out how it is you view yourself a "Conservative." Please explain.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 01:59 pm
You'll wait till hell freezes over. Wink
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 02:08 pm
Ahhhh. I thought so. It was a typo.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 03:16 pm
Atkins wrote:
Lash wrote:
Says you. I don't consider you a valuable source of information.

I don't want a bunch af indecisive know-nothing Democrats to loll around and when it IS a critical issue, look around for someone to blame.


Greenwitch's rule is broken here.

Who died and left you hall monitor? It's enough to make me rethink cloning. You and Freddie Mercury.
0 Replies
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 03:20 pm
Let me get this straight Cy.......first of all Krugman said there was no problem with SS.......this was confirmed by Pelosi and Reid. Then they said , well OK maybe there is a problem but we don't like your (Bush's) idea about personal savings accounts. They didn't say why......just that hell will freeze over before we even discuss it unless you drop the savings acount thing instead of saying....we recognize there is a problem and let's talk about it. Do I get the wrong idea about the motives of the Dems?.....maybe a high percentage of other American come to the same conclusion

Same thing on Iraq.......The Dems tell Bush, all you've accomlished is to get thousands of people killed and spend a fortune, all because you lied to us about WMDs.
All the Dems are interested in is to have Bush 1. Say he lied about WMDs, 2.Admit that he made a bundle of mistakes 3. To admit they (the Dems) were right all along and 4. Set a date to pull all the troops out so that the Dems can get all the mileage they can out of these admissions before the next election. Then they say......and if you don't do all this we will call a halt to the work in the congress.....well not in so many words but that is the result. The only thing they have actually done is to wage verbal war over judicial nominees, stall Boltons nomination and to lecture the Sec Def. To me this is blackmail and obstructionism, of course I could be wrong but if it looks this way to me, couldn't it look the same war to a great percentage of Americans.

It really isn't fair for us to get tangled up on these two issues, so let's move on since Green Witch wants more views from conservatives.
0 Replies
 
diagknowz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Jul, 2005 12:18 am
Blathe, TOOOOO funny! LMTO! LMTO!
0 Replies
 
 

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