"I support the troops..." ???

Indeed Dagmaraka.

I ask once again what this "support" is supposed to mean in practice?

Am I to have no thoughts of how many doubts and suspicions I have about this war? Do non-supportive thoughts count? How will I censor them if so?

Is it to be shown in what I say? Am I to voice none of my doubts?

Am I to show my support by waving flags or something?

Let me tell you in what sense I DO support the troops. My step-son has embarked. I am very fond of him indeed. I wish him safety, I wish that he returns and that he is not so traumatised that it seems to ruin his life, as it seems to have done for so many of the Vietnam veterans I run across, I hope for him that he is asked to do nothing that violates his morals and "soul" for want of a better word. He knows exactly what I think of this war, to the extent that I know that - and he knows that I respect his choice to be a soldier and what comes from it - although he, as do I, enjoys our many arguments on this very subject. He would, I think, vomit, or suggest I needed urgent psychiatric attention, if I went all misty-eyed and spoke of supporting our troops and their lofty heroism and courage and mission and all that, or began muttering nonsense about "my country, right or wrong", which comes to much the same thing. I would hate to have sent the boy off worrying about the sanity of his parental units! (His mum thinks just as I do - only more fervently.)

I hope, given that the thing is gonna happen, that it is over as fast and cleanly as possible - and that as few people as possible suffer or die.

Is this support enough for those calling for support - or must I hire some sort of brain device, like a pop-up ad destroyer for a computer, to monitor and destroy any "wrong" thoughts or utterances?

Er - may I add to my post pretty much what Craven just said, too....

I've read somewhere that there would be quite a different "support", if not professional soldiers but conscripts went to Iraq.

er- please do

Craven, well said. We will feel the consequences of this war for years to come. I hope and pray (although a heathen) that the UN will stand through the test unshaken significantly. It would be such a step back if it became another League of Nations, taken for a joke by most nations. Half a century of waste. If Saddam faces the International War Crimes Tribunal, or the ICJ, whichever they pick, shouldn't be the U.S. and co. somehow fined for breaking international law? In the past, U.S. lost a seat on the UN Human Rights Commission (I rejoiced for months for such gesture). It was given back quietly, not without some humiliation. It is just so painful to observe that the principles don't matter for the powerfull. Especially if they present themselves as the embodiment of justice, freedom, and democracy...

Dagmaraka - I think this pretty much spells the end for the UN - don't you?

Thanks, Sozobe. I think, that even those that do not consider the war being unjustified should wish the troops success: this war was not anyone of their's decision. And the less problematic is the campaign, the less casualties will be among both Allied Forces (USA, UK, Australia) and the Iraqi civilians.

dlowan

If that really would do so, how is democracy than spelled?

Well. The leading institutions took a harsh blow. The General Assembly and the Security Council must indeed feel ridiculous and useless. But the UN by now is a vast vast machine, parts of it being quite independent. I hope they will stand back on their feet, drawing legitimacy from such strong organizations as UNHCR (I can't sing enough praises) or UNESCO, etc. that do a ton of everyday work, often despite the work of the Security Coucil. I also do hope that the UN itself will learn a lesson from this and try to revise the structure and mechanism of the Security COuncil. It is such an elite club and it is increasingly despised, I'm afraid. I can't see a solution yet, a few years of 'laying low' are inevitable, it seems. After that a different leading structure is needed, I believe.

Hope so, Dagmar - I am not sure that I understand your question, Walter?

Never mind, dlowan, just some unsorted thoughts while waiting for the UK parliament to come to an end of the debate.

DL - it seems all of the above is necessary for this administration to consider your expressing your opinions as being supportive of the troups: do waive the flag and voice your view only if it is in agreement with the official one. remember, 'who's not with us, is against us!" wait, where did i hear that one? oh yeah, it was Klement Gottwald's motto, the first communist president of Czechoslovakia.

Absolutely the best damned discussion on the boards at the moment. Dagmaraka, your comments are well thought and well presented. Lusatian, glad to see you finally put up a comment, and an excellent comment it was. CDK, you really ought to stop by more often ... its always good to see you.

War is a dirty, dirty business. In that, this war is no different. I do not attribute to our "Leaders" the simple-minded venality alledged by others. That's cheap words to little purpose, and seems to me little evidence of critical thought. Nor do I hold our Leaders to be saints, and above the affairs of men ... that is plainly the same argument from the other side. They are but people who happen to have ascended to the hieght of power. Frankly, few folks in history have been found fully qualified to make that climb, and nobody makes it unassisted.

The War In Iraq is not a stand-alone war. It is but a campaign in The War on Terrorism. I expect The US action will be vindicated. I fear that vindication may come at tragic cost to Iraqi civilians, or to civilians of neighboring countries.

There are any number of reasons this is The Right War at The Right Time. I am deeply disappointed that the reasons and justifications trotted out for public consumption were so poorly thought out and presented. That in itself is reason enough for me devoutly to hope for a replacement of Bush The Younger in '04.

Yeah, I fully support the troops. I support ousting Saddam. I am embarrassed, saddened, and disappointed in The Current Administration. What could and should have been a simple, clear-cut, broadly supported matter has divided the globe, endangered The UN, and diminished the credibility of The US. Winning the war is a given. Managing the peace is a prospect of troubling uncertainty.

LOL! I live in Australia, Dagmar - if such strident voices are calling for support of our troops no matter what you may THINK (whatever that MEANS, as I keep asking) I have not heard them - the notion of wishing them personally well vs not supporting the government's decision to send them has not appeared - at least on my radar - as a problem here. Perhaps this is because the majority of people here seem to disapprove of fighting this war without UN approval - (for all the reasons outlined by Craven) - judging by the opinion polls, so the nation is dealing with a massive split between public opinion and government action. This appears to be occurring without a concomitant drop in popularity for the government! It seems we are all tolerating ambiguity and nuance quite well.

I am sure that callers in to the "shock jock" radio talk-back programs might reflect a different reality - but I do not listen to such things.

for the aged among us who still remember;
Your Flag Decal Won't Get You Into Heaven Anymore
© John Prine

While digesting Reader's Digest
In the back of a dirty book store,
A plastic flag, with gum on the back,
Fell out on the floor.
Well, I picked it up and I ran outside
Slapped it on my window shield,
And if I could see old Betsy Ross
I'd tell her how good I feel.

Chorus:
But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
They're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.

Well, I went to the bank this morning
And the cashier he said to me,
"If you join the Christmas club
We'll give you ten of them flags for free."
Well, I didn't mess around a bit
I took him up on what he said.
And I stuck them stickers all over my car
And one on my wife's forehead.

Repeat Chorus:

Well, I got my window shield so filled
With flags I couldn't see.
So, I ran the car upside a curb
And right into a tree.
By the time they got a doctor down
I was already dead.
And I'll never understand why the man
Standing in the Pearly Gates said...

"But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
We're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more."

DL-oops, did not notice that little detail, that you are on a different continent. but it seems to be the case somewhat in the u.s.
and australian situation seems to be repeated in many european countries - public opinion against, establishment for, the war - especially the countries of the eastern europe that joined NATO recently and are about to enter the EU. People still know very little about what NATO exactly is and are quite suspicious of it, not to even mention sending troops to a conflict that appears to have not much to do with them. As someone pointed out above, there are crazy people everywhere and even a small group of them, or one, are sufficient to do enough damage - thus the war against terrorism gets a few 'chuckles' from the common folk every now and then over there, for it often seems like Don Quijote trying to fight the windmills...

Steissd has been called to the Israeli Army and he will not be on A2k for a while.

We wish him well.

Steissd, be safe. Hope your mission is over soon.

Every American individual wishing to keep any future credibility must protest Bush' policy.

NOW.

It's not only Iraq's future at stake, but American democracy itself. That means your daily life.