George Galloway blasts the Senate

Your point is well taken, Francis . . . care for some "freedom" fries, Boss?

Moi, j'aime les pommes de terre, n'importe quelle <<espèce>>, les frites ainsi qu'un bon potage . . .

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Canada once had very good anti submarine forces. However they were not then and most certainly are not now the "world's Premiere" of the kind (except, perhaps in their own propaganda, as quoted by Setanta). By the early '80s Canada's Navy was rather hopelessly behind ours (and others) in terms of technology, and not able to coordinate well with our forces during operations. Moreover they were then down to just a handfull of ships - hardly a squadron of frigates Their crews were generally very proficient and did very well with what they had. These observations of mine are based on direct knowledge and first hand observation at sea. Singapore has a larger and more capable navy than Canada.

Canada has given its government monopoly power as the exclusive buyer of prescription drugs from their manufacturers. Through this monopoly power and coercive threats to license generic manufacturers Canada has driven down the price it pays for these drugs, and has, in effect, transferred the costs to the consumers in other countries that use free markets. If everyone did this the development and production of new drugs would soon cease. Americans and others are subsidising Canadians in this area.

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I'll take Mr. Milner's well researched and documented "propaganda" over your typically dismissive contempt for anything i write, georgeob1, the more so as it is based upon your anectdotal evidence, which so predictably supports your political agenda. Mr. Milner's bibliography is quite complete, and the publishing date is 1999, quite a long time after the early 1980's. Where's your bibliography?

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Isn't today Canada's national holiday?

Best wishes!

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Setanta wrote:

The comment about sneering at other nations is a general condemnation of an attitude prevalent among Americans which i have seen all of my life. Laughing at Canada seems to tickle a great many Americans, and it is my experience that their hilarity is in inverse proportion to their knowledge of Canada.

Rather broad statements. Are they really true? Just judging from my experience of these threads, there are, on an absolute scale, many more Canadians here complaining about and criticizing the USA, than Americans doing this to Canada or Canadians. Judging by the relative differences in populations, the relative difference is even greater.

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Hey, Canada! Here's a bargain for ya Smile

Sub for sale

$550,000 OBO

http://www.maritimesales.com/images/Others/PI12-2.jpg

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Indeed it is Oh Thou Launcher of a Thousand Ships . . . my sweetiepie has started a thread on the topic, as is her custom.

http://www.readyayeready.com/timeline/pre-1910/charybdis.jpg

Canada's first naval vessel, HMCS Charybdis was a Royal Navy "hand-me-down."

http://gwardnet.d2g.com/mac/maccdale/263cf.jpg

HMCS Yukon is a somewhat more modern member of the RCN.

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Setanta wrote:

I'll take Mr. Milner's well researched and documented "propaganda" over your typically dismissive contempt for anything i write, georgeob1, the more so as it is based upon your anectdotal evidence, which so predictably supports your political agenda. Mr. Milner's bibliography is quite complete, and the publishing date is 1999, quite a long time after the early 1980's. Where's your bibliography?

No bibliography. My knowledge is based on substantial direct experience with the Canadian Navy in both the Pacific and Atlantic oceans, and factual data on things like the number of ships they had in 1985, 1990, and today. I believe my experience in Naval operations is a good deal more than anecdotal. THis includes the Canadian Navy as well - their Pacific (Esquimalt B.C.) squadron of frigates operated under my tactical command for more than a month at sea in the central Pacific. (these were ships of the same class as HMCS Youkon, which yoiu cited above -- don't let the fo'c's'le deck combing fool you. These are old ships with no air or missile defense capability, poor electronics, limited radar and detection capability, no helicopter support capability, and little else. More or less a super Coast Guard cutter.)

Perhaps you have it backwards - my experience (the source of anecdotal evidence) has shaped my political (and other) beliefs. It isn't the other way around as you say.

I am not contemptuous of "anything you say" at all. I take great interest in much of it, particularly your recitations of various aspects of history. In some areas, where I have differing opinions, I offer counter arguments to some of yours. Isn't that what this thread is all about?

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georgeob1 wrote:

Rather broad statements. Are they really true? Just judging from my experience of these threads, there are, on an absolute scale, many more Canadians here complaining about and criticizing the USA, than Americans doing this to Canada or Canadians. Judging by the relative differences in populations, the relative difference is even greater.

Although it does not surprise me that you are unaware of the circumstance, georgeob1, i did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday. There is a real world apart from this website which i inhabit and have done before the world wide web came into existence. In the more than half-century i've been alive, i've experienced this. Therefore, my "rather broad" statement--akin to your broad and snide comment comparing Canada's navy to that of Singapore. Got that bibliography ready yet?

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georgeob1 wrote:

No bibliography. My knowledge is based on substantial direct experience with the Canadian Navy in both the Pacific and Atlantic oceans, and factual data on things like the number of ships they had in 1985, 1990, and today. I believe my experience in Naval operations is a good deal more than anecdotal. THis includes the Canadian Navy asa well - their Pacific (Esquimalt) squadron of frigates operated under my tactical command for more than a month at sea in the central Pacific.

Perhaps you have it backwards - my experience (the source of anecdotal evidence) has shaped my political (and other) beliefs. It isn't the other way around as you say.

I am not contemptuous of "anything you say" at all. I take great interest in much of it, particularly your recitations of various aspects of history. In some areas, where I have differing opinions, I offer counter arguments to some of yours. Isn't that what this thread is all about?

In that case, you are surely aware of the cutbacks which were necessitated by the economic hard times of the 1960's, and the consistent appeal made by politicians such as Trudeau for support in Québec by pandering to their anti-militarism. You should surely then be aware that Tory governments were able in the late 1980's to fund much new construction in the RCN, resulting in first-class ASW frigates and the necessary support vessels. Shall we do a review of the good faith shown by the Congress in more than two hundred years to the maintenance of the United States Navy? It won't be a very flattering review.

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Francis wrote:

Setanta wrote:
Laughing at Canada seems to tickle a great many Americans, and it is my experience that their hilarity is in inverse proportion to their knowledge of Canada.

Not only Canada...

We have a saying here in the U.S. "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" Smile

http://www.fredericroyer.com/IMG/arton82.jpg

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Setanta wrote:

I rather think most Americans would gladly pay Canadian prescription drug prices ...

Yes, they would, but it's something of a Catch-22 in that the exorbitant prices create the profits that provide the incentive for further R&D ... just another example of average Americans bankrolling benefits for the rest of the world.

Setanta wrote:

EDIT: Them comment about sneering at other nations is a general condemnation of an attitude prevalent among Americans which i have seen all of my life. Laughing at Canada seems to tickle a great many Americans, and it is my experience that their hilarity is in inverse proportion to their knowledge of Canada.

News to me. I've always regarded Canada as a country capable of pursuing a national identity and foreign policy absent the hostility and delusions of grandeur of ... say ... a France or the gaggle of countries now attempting to copy the French model. <<Not bashing here, BTW.>>

No, I've never been exposed to such an attitude toward Canadians, much less "an attitude prevalent among Americans." Are you sure you're not just seeing good-natured ribbing, such as among regions here ... your past comments regarding "Ohio drivers" come to mind ... and reading more into it as part of the current PC mania to uncover every ugly aspect of American life?

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I'm not sure I follow your point here. I understand and acknowledge the political process you described by which Canada has reduced its defense and naval spending over the last 40 years. Their defense spending and Navy are both much smaller than ours even on a per capita population or GDP basis. These siimply represent the different choices nations and their governments make. Our NATO allies (except Britain, and - for a while- Germany) generally fell short of the defense spending committments they made toi NATO. The USA didn't have that flexibility (and external cover), so we bahaved differently.

Our government spending on our Navy has also had its ups and downs, but has been maintained at much higher relative levels than in Canada. I make no judgement on this score - a good deal of defense spending is wasted, and cuts in spending, even deep ones, are sometimes appriopriate.

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WhoodaThunk wrote:

Yes, they would, but it's something of a Catch-22 in that the exorbitant prices create the profits that provide the incentive for further R&D ... just another example of average Americans bankrolling benefits for the rest of the world.

Former pharmaceutical industry employees, as well as investigative reporters have long pointed out that drug companies use their "R & D" money to promote the product, and rely upon government-funded research for new chemical discoveries. Just another example of average Americans bankrolling those who make large political campaign contributions.

Quote:

News to me. I've always regarded Canada as a country capable of pursuing a national identity and foreign policy absent the hostility and delusions of grandeur of ... say ... a France or the gaggle of countries now attempting to copy the French model. <<Not bashing here, BTW.>>

No, I've never been exposed to such an attitude toward Canadians, much less "an attitude prevalent among Americans." Are you sure you're not just seeing good-natured ribbing, such as among regions here ... your past comments regarding "Ohio drivers" come to mind ... and reading more into it as part of the current PC mania to uncover every ugly aspect of American life?

Your attitude toward Canada is laudatory--but it doesn't explain such egregious Canada-bashing as references to "Canuckistan" which were so popular a few years back when the Canadians would not automatically suck-up to the current administration's agenda. I'm not at all surprised at your attitude toward France--after all, that's a part of the conservative party line right now. Political rectitude has never been a motivating factor with me, and i consider the silly, insular attitude of so many Americans i have met as unfortunate--mostly for themselves--rather than ugly. It only gets ugly when it transforms iteself into notions such as that all Muslims are terrorists and they should all be exterminated.

(That "Ohio drivers" thing really gets your goat, doesn't it? I recall how much you didn't like it when i said as much at AFUZZ in a discussion with Sumac. You should read An American Childhood sometime. The author grew up in Pittsburg, and in one passage, she writes of the things which trolley drivers feared, including "the dreaded Ohio driver." You'd be highly amused, i'm sure.)

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JW: Maybe the techies in NY could rig the Statue of Liberty for a similar gesture toward our fair-weather friends "over there"?

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JustWonders wrote:

We have a saying here in the U.S. "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"

Having nothing personally against Americans, and not being a chef, I'll stay out of the kitchen. It was just a word between doors...

Btw, I'm not used to trash literature...

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That offer of asile, Francis, do you think it's still good? I could probably scrape up transatlantic air fare if i had a good enough reason . . .

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Setanta wrote:

That offer of asile, Francis, do you think it's still good? I could probably scrape up transatlantic air fare if i had a good enough reason . . .

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WhoodaThunk wrote:

JW: Maybe the techies in NY could rig the Statue of Liberty for a similar gesture toward our fair-weather friends "over there"?

Best idea I've heard all day Smile

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Well, actually you all should blame the UK for those second-hand submarines .... not to forget that one Canadian officer injured in the fire aboard HMCS Chicoutimi has died and three others were wounded.

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George Galloway blasts the Senate

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