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George Galloway blasts the Senate

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 02:48 pm
The Chamberlain of Augustus the Strong recorded in his private journal that the King (Augustus was the elected King of Poland) once asked him how many bastards were receiving a pension from him. The minister replied that he believed the figure was 355. Sometimes a gentleman's indiscretions reach proportions such that he could not make the tally independently even if he lacked the necessary discretion . . .
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 03:04 pm
discretion, what a wonderful word

Hoft

no problem, I'm quite impressed actually how Galloway keeps popping up in this thread despite the provocations
0 Replies
 
WhoodaThunk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 06:05 am
I hardly know where to begin, LordBadSpinOnAllThat'sAmerican, as you've managed to criticize just about everything except Mom and her apple pie although I'll stay posted for those addenda.

But to pick and choose my way through your tizzy:

Lord Ellpus wrote:
... I'm thinking OJ Simpson, Michael Jackson,


What can you say about OJ that's not been said already? 95.61239% (that one's for you McT) of Americans believe he killed his wife. The prosecution relied on a surferboy, a racist cop, & a shrunken glove handing the defense the small challenge of planting doubt in the jury's minds. All-in-all the system worked for OJ, but not Nicole. Ditto Jackson. Conniving mother, child caught in lies. 99.3251889% of Americans know Michael likes little boys way too much, but again the defense had fairly easy pickings.

and wrote:
the "third strike" system, leading to horrendously long prison sentences for relatively minor offences,


I'll give you that one, but what should be done with these chronic abusers? Perhaps we should just transport them to a penal colony in Australia for a lifetime of exile ...

and wrote:
the attempts to withdraw the teaching of evolution in schools,


I don't think this will ever happen. I've always felt a good teacher teaches his students to think. One then presents the opposing theories and allows the student to make up his/her mind.

and wrote:
the worrying amount of power that religeon has in the USA,


Why shouldn't it? Are you advocating squelching freedom of speech to these groups?

and wrote:
the biased News and Media programmes,


This criticism always amuses me as it conjures memories of pre-cable life a la Kennedy assassination, Gemini liftoffs, Nixon addresses, etc. when one's three (3) VHF channels were monopolized by the same coverage. There was no other choice on the television (or radio.) Today we have satellite dishes, broadband, and the internet with the blog of your choice. For God's sake, we watch Blair duking it out with MP's in a similar version of C-Span. Do you honestly believe 81.4444446% of Americans rely on Fox News? If so, I'll cling to my image of you hovering over your parcheesi board, pipe in hand, waiting for the government report on the wireless.

and wrote:
the lack of open, unscripted debate between your politicians on live TV..............


We do have the presidential & vice-presidential debates which can get a little dicey. Still, it's widely agreed (59.00003%) that Abraham Lincoln wouldn't have stood a chance on live TV ... high-pitched and nasal, they say ...

and concluded when he wrote:
Maybe I should reconsider?.......NOPE, I still think that you deserve at least fifth place.


Which brings me back to one of my premises ... should we change our way of life to suit a few disgruntled Brits? Monday next, we'll mark the 229th anniversary of the decision to that question.

Gosh, LordOfPatienceAndAdmirableUnderstanding ... I didn't even make it to your Galloway concerns. That shall be my goal. Until then, I'll leave you with the thoughts of one of Ohio's "finest":

http://www.thememoryhole.org/traficant/

To me, Mr. Galloway is but a bland replica of Mr. Traficant ... but with better hair.
0 Replies
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 07:59 am
Disclaimer:

This is a picture from Portsmouth, England, where they're celebrating the 200th anniversary of the battle of Trafalgar and it has no connection to Galloway or any other posts on this thread; I just love ships!

http://s.tf1.fr/mmdia/i/33/4/2038334_5.jpg
0 Replies
 
WhoodaThunk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 08:03 am
Lord Ellpus wrote:
ME:-
"making accusations against the character of a democratically elected British Member of Parliament, in the most scathing of language. The accusor then has to sit there on live worldwide TV, as that maligned (to date there is STILL no evidence) person thoroughly humiliates him (and the USA in the process) by ripping him apart."


Whooda replied:-
"I can positively hear Union Jacks snapping in the breeze here, Lord E.
See JTT's comments RE Oklahoma twisters ..."

So, Whooda.....please be good enough to tell me what was factually innacurate about my statement, and how you consider it as "spin"?

Or is it ACTUALLY the case that people are presumed guilty in the USA, without hard evidence, and the accused then has to prove his/ her innocence?

Maybe I should revise my ranking for the USA after all, eh?


Lord: 'Twasn't that anything was factually inaccurate. 'Twas your choice of verbiage. It nearly had me reaching for the tissues as I envisioned poor Galloway, our guest from shores afar, enduring those horrendous attacks ... like Dorothy, the meek and mild, before Oz ... or more likely ... Tiny Tim, leaning on his little cane, before any number of scoundrels.

As for the facts, I vote with others here. Galloway is most likely guilty, to some degree or another, but never to be proven unless the committee chooses to give up its sources which is highly unlikely for such small fry.

So, yes, the evil senators made a foolish move and your dog had his day. It was reported, the sun set, and it rose again the next day.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 08:06 am
portsmouth is the place for ship lovers everywhere today.

USS Saipan
Charles de Gaulle
I think the Spanish have sent a galleon or two.

even saw a few rubber dingies protecting the fleet from Osama bin Laden.
0 Replies
 
WhoodaThunk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 08:15 am
HofT wrote:
Disclaimer:

This is a picture from Portsmouth, England, where they're celebrating the 200th anniversary of the battle of Trafalgar and it has no connection to Galloway or any other posts on this thread; I just love ships!


Ships and planes, Helen, ships and planes. We recently returned from a trip to northern Michigan where I always make a point of watching the oil and grain freighters move through the locks at Sault Saint Marie. A freighter from Bombay loaded with grain from Duluth was going through this year. They're rather lowly in comparison to what you've posted, but they fascinate me just the same.

And I think one of the freighters was named The Galloway ... :wink:
0 Replies
 
WhoodaThunk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 08:34 am
Lord Ellpus wrote:
... Yes, Whooda, it WAS my perception, also (IMO) that of about 95% of the UK population who were given their proper freedom of speech and "open" TV privileges, to be able to watch the Galloway "interview", in its entirety, on national TV.
How many national, mainstream channels screened the entire, uncut interview in the USA, I wonder?
Whoever watched the whole thing, wherever they were in the world, would have had to have been a thoroughly brainwashed Bushite, not to have recognized that Galloway came out the clear winner.

......and I dont even like the guy, but I feel that nobody should be allowed to get away with such slandering, and act with such comfortable arrogance, as that Senator did in that report. If he had evidence, he would have presented it by now. Surely it doesnt take the mighty workings of the FBI and CIA THIS long to manufacture something.

That Senator is dead in the water.


Again, Lord, I think this is more of a cultural issue rather than a freedom of speech violation. I can't imagine any "national, mainstream channel" presenting the "entire, uncut interview" for the simple reason that there would be no audience. It wasn't Watergate. It wasn't the Reagan funeral. It wasn't the Challenger explosion. It was what it was and it was given the appropriate level of coverage. Those who had a heightened level of interest could certainly find the uncut coverage, but to assume networks should preempt other programming is just ludicrous.

As for the senator being "dead in the water," he may have looked foolish during the bluster, but I doubt his reelection prospects have been diminished.
0 Replies
 
WhoodaThunk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 08:44 am
I guess that's it, Lord. Have at it.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 09:57 am
Setanta wrote:
The Chamberlain of Augustus the Strong recorded in his private journal that the King (Augustus was the elected King of Poland) once asked him how many bastards were receiving a pension from him. The minister replied that he believed the figure was 355. Sometimes a gentleman's indiscretions reach proportions such that he could not make the tally independently even if he lacked the necessary discretion . . .


Accountants, who know the price of everything, and the value of nothing. Bean-counters. Sorry, bastards. Ah, me.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 10:02 am
HofT wrote:
Disclaimer:

This is a picture from Portsmouth, England, where they're celebrating the 200th anniversary of the battle of Trafalgar and it has no connection to Galloway or any other posts on this thread; I just love ships!



I can do it in only two degrees: Portsmouth- Big Mouth- George Galloway.

(joke...I don't think he was wrong)
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 01:54 pm
Quote:
"...we all have to recognize?-no matter how great our strength?-that we must deny ourselves the license to do always as we please".
(Harry Truman)
Great powers, of course, are not philanthropists. The US never ceased to pursue the national interest as successive administrations understood it. But for ten years following the end of the cold war the US and the "international community" appeared, however fortuitously, to share a common set of interests and objectives; indeed, American military preponderance fueled all manner of liberal dreams for global improvement. Hence the enthusiasms and hopes of the Nineties?-and hence, too, the angry disillusion today. For the US of President George W. Bush most decidedly does not share the interests and objectives of the international community. Many in that community would say that this is because the United States itself has changed in unprecedented and quite frightening ways. Andrew Bacevich would agree with them.

Bacevich is a graduate of West Point, a Vietnam veteran, and a conservative Catholic who now directs the study of international relations at Boston University. He has thus earned the right to a hearing even in circles typically immune to criticism. What he writes should give them pause. His argument is complex, resting on a close account of changes in the US military since Vietnam, on the militarization of strategic political thinking, and on the role of the military in American culture. But his conclusion is clear. The United States, he writes, is becoming not just a militarized state but a military society: a country where armed power is the measure of national greatness, and war, or planning for war, is the exemplary (and only) common project.

Why does the US Department of Defense currently maintain 725 official US military bases outside the country and 969 at home (not to mention numerous secret bases)? Why does the US spend more on "defense" than all the rest of the world put together? After all, it has no present or likely enemies of the kind who could be intimidated or defeated by "star wars" missile defense or bunker-busting "nukes." And yet this country is obsessed with war: rumors of war, images of war, "preemptive" war, "preventive" war, "surgical" war, "prophylactic" war, "permanent" war. As President Bush explained at a news conference on April 13, 2004, "This country must go on the offense and stay on the offense."

Among democracies, only in America do soldiers and other uniformed servicemen figure ubiquitously in political photo ops and popular movies. Only in America do civilians eagerly buy expensive military service vehicles for suburban shopping runs. In a country no longer supreme in most other fields of human endeavor, war and warriors have become the last, enduring symbols of American dominance and the American way of life. "In war, it seemed," writes Bacevich, "lay America's true comparative advantage."

Bacevich is good on the intellectual roots of the cult of therapeutic aggression?-citing among others the inimitable Norman Podhoretz (America has an international mission and must never "come home"). He also summarizes the realist case for war?-rooted in what will become the country's increasingly desperate struggle to control the fuel supply. The United States consumes 25 percent of all the oil produced in the world every year but has proven reserves of its own amounting to less than 2 percent of the global total. This struggle Bacevich calls World War IV: the contest for supremacy in strategic, energy-rich regions like the Middle East and Central Asia.[10] It began at the end of the Seventies, long before the formal conclusion of "World War III" (i.e., the cold war).

In this setting today's "Global War on Terror" is one battle, perhaps just a sideshow, among the potentially limitless number of battles that the US will be called upon (or will call upon itself) to fight. These battles will all be won because the US has a monopoly of the most advanced weaponry?-and they may be acceptable to the American people because, in Bacevich's view, that same weaponry, air power especially, has given war "aesthetic respectability" once again. But the war itself has no foreseeable end.

As a former soldier, Bacevich is much troubled by the consequent militarization of American foreign relations, and by the debauching of his country's traditional martial values in wars of conquest and occupation. And it is clear that he has little tolerance for Washington's ideologically driven overseas adventures: the uncertain benefits for the foreign recipients are far outweighed by the moral costs to the US itself.[11] For Bacevich's deepest concern lies closer to home. In a militarized society the range of acceptable opinion inevitably shrinks. Opposition to the "commander in chief" is swiftly characterized as lèse-majesté; criticism becomes betrayal. No nation, as Madison wrote in 1795 and Bacevich recalls approvingly, can "preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."[12] "Full-spectrum dominance" begins as a Pentagon cliché and ends as an executive project.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18113
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 02:08 pm
Well that's an interesting article.

As a point of interest, some few Humvees are sold here (the street-ready kind) for domestic use. But these are either viewed in an ironic way (by their owners) or mocked/vilified (by others)
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 02:13 pm
HofT wrote:
Disclaimer:

This is a picture from Portsmouth, England, where they're celebrating the 200th anniversary of the battle of Trafalgar and it has no connection to Galloway or any other posts on this thread; I just love ships!


I just love ships too. Many of this island race are down at Portsmouth today, to see the review and the sail-past, and the TV news is full of it this evening.
Lovely. I have been on a few of the tall ships while moored at Leith, and have an ambition to take a voyage on one before I am much older.
0 Replies
 
WhoodaThunk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 02:50 pm
blatham wrote:
In a country no longer supreme in most other fields of human endeavor, war and warriors have become the last, enduring symbols of American dominance and the American way of life. "In war, it seemed," writes Bacevich, "lay America's true comparative advantage."


So America is even criticized for opening its markets and sending its steel industries, electronics industries, textile industries, and fill-in-the-blank industries packing to Third World workers?

No competitive edge in anything but war-making?

Those who subscribe to such cynical beliefs will settle for nothing less than seeing this country eviscerated economically and politically.

Like it or not, they are increasingly responsible for the bunker mentality that grows here.

Someone mentioned this earlier, and I agree. Why should this country help the Lilliputians tie their ropes?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 09:17 pm
Note who makes the criticism, Whoodathunk.
Quote:

"Bacevich is a graduate of West Point, a Vietnam veteran, and a conservative Catholic who now directs the study of international relations at Boston University."


Let me quote another part from the article...

Quote:
At the outer edges of the US imperium, in Bratislava or Tiflis, the dream of republican America still lives on, like the fading light from a distant, dying star. But even there the shadows of doubt are growing. Amnesty International cites several cases of detainees who "just could not believe Americans could act this way." Those are exactly the words said to me by an Albanian friend in Macedonia?- and Macedonian Albanians have good reason to count themselves among this country's best friends and unconditional admirers. In Madrid a very senior and rather conservative Spanish diplomat recently put it thus:

We grew up under Franco with a dream of America. That dream encouraged us to imagine and later to build a different, better Spain. All dreams must fade?-but not all dreams must become nightmares. We Spanish know a little about political nightmares. What is happening to America? How do you explain Guantánamo?[16]


This is the point. Those of us who truly love the ideals and the dream of America (and I am one) are deeply horrified at the possible, and increasingly likely, consequences of the direction America has moved, particularly under this administration. America now tortures people. What does that mean for those people in the world who thought perhaps they might make their own countries on the model of America? Who thought a just and free and humane culture was possible for them too? Who hoped that if they tried to get there, America might help them.

Now, something like 110,000 Iraqis have been killed by American forces. How many wounded, maimed or have seen their children's bodies blown apart? Some 70,000 Iraqis have been incarcerated, without trial, in often more horrid conditions than you and I can imagine, and almost all of them completely innocent civilians.

The world has seen this happen. The world has come to understand, as Americans now are coming to understand, that this entire project was initiated upon purposeful deceits.

The world has seen this administration betray international agreements and conventions which it had itself initiated. The world has seen this administration act with such selfishness and corruption...for how else might they understand the constant obstruction of environmental accords by a government so intimately connected to the petroleum industries and to the huge corporations which profit, and profiting they indeed are, from war?

And the world understands that denials regarding the Iraq war and Iraq's oil supplies are perhaps not to be believed.

The tragedy here is potentially very great indeed.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 12:00 am
That's right. The quotation from the Spanish man was very poignant.

A tragedy has already unfolded, the country has changed utterly, and it is a puzzle to me that more intelligent right-wing Americans can't see this, or won't admit it.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 10:52 am
McT, Isn't intelligent and right-wing an oxymoron? Sorry, couldn't resist. Wink
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 09:38 pm
A Spaniard who grew up under Franco did not see any real political nightmares. The real political nightmares of his youth were all in Nazi Germany, Facist Italy, Vichy France, the Soviet Union and the ravaged and occupied countries of Central Europe.

At the height of his power, after the fall of France and before either The Battle of Britain or the invasion of the USSR, Hitler travelled to the Pyrenees to meet Franco at the French frontier. He offered Franco Gibraltar and French territories in North Africa in return for Spain's assistance in the war. Franco refused and made it clear that Spain would resist any German advance into his country. He also observed to the Nazi dictator that he was offering gifts which he didn't himself posess. He did get rid of his own crazy Nazi sympathizers b y organizing them in the mostly forgotten "Blue" division which he sent off to join the Russian campaign, from which it never returned. Hitler returned across France by train, sulked in bitter confusion for a few weeks, and then started the air campaign against Britain. Franco was no fool.

I recognize this contradicts the sappy "unquestioned truths" and holy writ of progressive true believers. However, it is the real truth.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 11:10 pm
Well, when the Vichy puppet regime was established, Franco adopted a pro-Axis position, allowing e.g. German ships to use Spanish harbours.

Recently, I translated some German textes fror an English PhD-candidate in history about the División Azul - seems to me that you can take different views about the Blue Division.

Spain became only neutral again, when Germany was on the loosing way in 1943.
0 Replies
 
 

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