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George Galloway blasts the Senate

 
 
Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 04:14 am
WhoodaThunk wrote:
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
piss on their holy books more like

and dinner is deep fried sh1t sandwich


Shocked Such language! Shocked

You boys can't believe everything you read in your liberal rags. But then, as you have proven, anyone can believe most any crazy bit of fiction.

<<BTW, thanks for the entertainment ... Laughing ... it had been much too long since the local talent had been poked with a stick ... predictable responses, but entertaining just the same.>>


Methinks that Steve was poking his stick at you, Whooda. Maybe you had a late night and didnt realise.
A bit like the stick that Galloway poked at his "interview", except that there was not that much local talent to aim at.....a couple of softie Senators who wouldnt last five minutes in the House of Commons.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 04:58 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
You stayed at the Guantanamo hotel George?

Did you take the trip to see the US naval base? Smile


No, not there. That's for Walter on visits to his Socialist friends. :wink: Rather, I stayed at the officer's quarters at the Leeward point airfield on the base.

For many years we would rotate fighter squadrons through Gitmo for a month or so at a time, just to keep Fidel from temptation. (The west end of the runway was only 1,500M from the fence - it was a bit difficult to avoid overflying Cuban territory on approaches to that runway. After a while we just quit trying.) It was a bit of a pain in the neck to take the long way around through the windward passage (between Cuba and Haiti) when flying between Gitmo and bases in Florida. There were always a few reckless showoffs who would just light the afterburners and fly straight across the island. (The recon guys in the SR-71s - operating out of bases in California on their weekly photo overflights - would usually make a second pass just to piss off the Cubans trying to find & track them. The problem was, at the speed they were flying, the looping turn to reverse their track took them halfway across the Caribbean.)
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 05:08 am
hope no one was repremanded for improper waste of aviation fuel
0 Replies
 
WhoodaThunk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 05:09 am
Lord Ellpus wrote:
WhoodaThunk wrote:
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
piss on their holy books more like

and dinner is deep fried sh1t sandwich


Shocked Such language! Shocked

You boys can't believe everything you read in your liberal rags. But then, as you have proven, anyone can believe most any crazy bit of fiction.

<<BTW, thanks for the entertainment ... Laughing ... it had been much too long since the local talent had been poked with a stick ... predictable responses, but entertaining just the same.>>


Methinks that Steve was poking his stick at you, Whooda. Maybe you had a late night and didnt realise.
A bit like the stick that Galloway poked at his "interview", except that there was not that much local talent to aim at.....a couple of softie Senators who wouldnt last five minutes in the House of Commons.



Many thanks for your condescending clarification, Ellpew. Quite as expected.

Your leap to that Galloway oddity was just that -- a leap -- but at least it brought the thread back on topic.

More thoughts on what you Brits find newsworthy:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/10/AR2005061001705.html
0 Replies
 
WhoodaThunk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 05:24 am
Also ....

With all this talk of Gitmo, p!ssed-on holy books, and sh!t sandwiches, it reminded me of this dialogue between actual POW's as they discuss their treatment at the hands of our German friends:

http://discussions.seniornet.org/[email protected]@.77392ea1/125

Interesting reading, really, plus you must bear in mind this is factual stuff, not the fiction of Newsweek and Amnesty International. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 05:30 am
georgeob1 wrote:


There were always a few reckless showoffs who would just light the afterburners and fly straight across the island. (The recon guys in the SR-71s - operating out of bases in California on their weekly photo overflights - would usually make a second pass just to piss off the Cubans trying to find & track them. The problem was, at the speed they were flying, the looping turn to reverse their track took them halfway across the Caribbean.)


Isn't it more than a bit hypocritical to suggest that violating another countries airspace is a good thing? Just because you're the biggest doesn't mean you should automatically be a bully.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 05:48 am
JTT wrote:

Isn't it more than a bit hypocritical to suggest that violating another countries airspace is a good thing? Just because you're the biggest doesn't mean you should automatically be a bully.


If you will read my post you will note the absence of any value judgement on my part. Moreover the phrase "reckless showoff' is hardly a term of approval.

There were no victims to these antics, and I think that if you knew more about the real activities of the Cuban government in those years you wouldn't be so quick to swell up in such righteous indignation.

A young man sitting alone in the cockpit of an F-8, - with a switch on the throttle enabling him to accelerate to 1000mph in a matter of seconds - can find such temptations hard to resist, and some don't always resist them. Besides it was fun. (and for Steve - the aviation fuel wasted by the burners was more than saved by eliminating the trip the long way around - we were fairly tame, by the way, compared to the RN aviators of the period)
0 Replies
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 05:49 am
JTT - the plane in question flies at 90,000 feet. It's not clear to me that national airspace is in fact being violated since none of their local traffic would come anywhere near that altitude - otherwise low-orbit satellites also would be considered as airspace violations. However a legal opinion would be required on the subject; I'll see if I can find one.
0 Replies
 
WhoodaThunk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 05:55 am
JTT wrote:
Isn't it more than a bit hypocritical to suggest that violating another countries airspace is a good thing? Just because you're the biggest doesn't mean you should automatically be a bully.


JTT conveniently forgets Castro's eagerness to arm his island with nukes and the USSR's use of the Cuban Army as proxy in its African wars.

That crazy little bearded commie needed daily remindings that there was a bigger "bully" than himself.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 06:11 am
Whooda that article by Michael Kinsey was a clever piece of obfuscation.

Kinsey deliberately misses the target, though its plain enough.

It wasn't just the (leaked) briefing paper for the 23 July 2002 meeting.

It was incautious remarks made by Defense Minister Hoon about "spikes of activity to put pressure on the regime", coupled with figures showing the amount of ordnance used and when; plus an admission that regime change per se was illegal.

But Kinsey doesnt want to bother you about all that unnecessary detail.

Such as the fact that under US law only Congress can declare war or give the President authority to wage it.

And that from April to September 2002 the US airforce was engaged in a softening up excercise of Iraqi air defense facilities "to put pressure on the regime", when Congress only authorised the president to go to war against Iraq on 11th October 2002.

If you had been paying attention, you might have noticed that this news was discussed here


http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=52517&start=0


some weeks ago, and the contributions on a2k far out weigh the pathetic scribblings of Michael Kinsey.

For your information I post again my original introduction to that thread.

"At last the truth is out. Courtesy af leaked documents, incautious remarks by British Defence Secretary Hoon and probing by Liberal Democrat spokesman Menzies Campbell.

As we all knew, regime change was the objective from the start.

July 2002 meeting in London has revealing statement by Hoon that the US has "already begun 'spikes of activity' to put pressure on the regime"

That is bombing Iraq and the start of the war began in May 2002 not March 03.

Campbell illicited from the MoD ordnance figures.

March 2002 no bombs on Iraq
April 0.3 tonnes
May 7.3 tonnes
June 10.4
July 9.5
August 14.1
September 54.6
October 17.7
Nov 33.6
Dec 53.2

In the early hours of 5 Sept 2002 more than a hundred allied aircraft attacked airfield H3 the main air defense site in western Iraq. It was destroyed to allow special forces operating in Jordan to enter Iraq undetected.

Nine weeks later Bush and Blair went to the UN to try and pursuade them to allow the use of military force.

The number of raids shot up from 4 to 30 per month, allied aircraft repeatedly returning to sites they had hit to finish them off.

The briefing paper for the July 2002 meeting stated categorically that

"When the Prime Minister discussed Iraq with President Bush at Crawford in April 2002 he said that the UK would support military action to bring about regime change."

also that

"Regime change per se is not a proper basis for military action under international law"

and it was therefore necessary to

"...create the conditions in which we could legally support military action"

the leaked British documents have found their way to the US political debate. They are just as damaging for Bush.

Under the US constitution only Congress has the power to authorise war, AND IT DID NOT DO SO UNTIL 11 OCTOBER 2002.

Military action to oust Saddam before that would constitute a serious abuse of power by the president."

Above based on article in New Statesman by Michael Smith.
0 Replies
 
WhoodaThunk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 06:23 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:


... the contributions on a2k far out weigh the pathetic scribblings of Michael Kinsey.

For your information I post again my original introduction to that thread ...............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................


You missed the point, dude. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 06:47 am
I did NOT add a stupid emoticon after my comments on Kinsey, YOU did, and will you please edit your post to make that clear.
0 Replies
 
WhoodaThunk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 07:32 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
... and the contributions on a2k far out weigh the pathetic scribblings of Michael Kinsey. For your information I post again my original introduction to that thread ...


Laughing Rolling Eyes Laughing Rolling Eyes Laughing Rolling Eyes Laughing Rolling Eyes Laughing Rolling Eyes Laughing Rolling Eyes Laughing

A thousand apologies there, Steve. I think I just got caught up in the hilarity of your delusions of grandeur.

Emoticon duly edited and repositioned with friends.

Please proceed with the urgent unwadding of your panties.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 07:50 am
HofT wrote:
JTT - the plane in question flies at 90,000 feet. It's not clear to me that national airspace is in fact being violated since none of their local traffic would come anywhere near that altitude - otherwise low-orbit satellites also would be considered as airspace violations. However a legal opinion would be required on the subject; I'll see if I can find one.


How do you think the US would feel about China or Russia or any country doing weekly passes over the USA?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 08:00 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
The figure of 30 or 40 thousand detainees was JTTs not mine.


Really?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 08:10 am
Thank you Whooda

Now would you like to address the issue of your President waging war without the authority of Congress?
0 Replies
 
WhoodaThunk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 08:55 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Thank you Whooda

Now would you like to address the issue of your President waging war without the authority of Congress?


You're most welcome, Steve.

We could address the issue you suggest, but why limit it to that? In the interest of throwing even more bloody meat into the shark tank, why not go back further to the Tonkin Gulf Resolution or maybe even a revisit to the Maine in Havana Harbor? No, thanks. You boys can continue to rehash the war's legality, although its relevance seems somewhat moot at this point, don't you think?

The road to conflict is often circuitous, and we clearly don't agree on this one's causes or methods of prosecution. My contribution here is merely to point out the inconsequence of the Downing Street memo (it was no smoking gun) and to lampoon the Left's highly-principled indignation regarding the "mistreatment" of those at Guantanamo Bay.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 11:40 am
JTT wrote:
HofT wrote:

How do you think the US would feel about China or Russia or any country doing weekly passes over the USA?


Well, wisely they didn't try. (although Soviet submnarines did violate our national waters a few tiomes.).

Besides we didn't fly over either Russia or China on a weekly basis - much less frequently than that, and not at all after '58 when they shot down our U-2. (Prior to that it had been a fairly regular thing.)
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 01:31 pm
We could discuss all sorts of things Whooda, but I suggest the issue of the current president waging war without consent of Congress is more relevant to this thread than say the Gulf of Tonkin resolution.

So come on, give us you pearls of wisdom on this point. Address the question. Did Bush act beyond his authority when he ordered the airforce to take out Iraqi air defense systems, or as our Defence Minister said "engaged in spikes of activity" i.e provocative aggressive acts to get the war going?
0 Replies
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 01:43 pm
George - hey, I didn't write this, JTT did!

Besides, I did get a legal opinion in the meantime - brb with it but the gist is that anything flying at 90,000 ft doesn't technically violate Cuba's airspace as there's no international treaty separating the upper atmosphere (not used by their aircraft) and the ionosphere, let alone the low satellite orbits.
0 Replies
 
 

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