Can Souls in Hell be Forgiven and Saved and Go to Heaven?

@neologist,

Quote:

Are you saying that we today have within ourselves a perfect conscience? Adam was not ignorant as in not being able to recognize evil. Instead, he had an innate direction to avoid it.

Satan also was created with a perfect conscience. How did he come around to rebel? He ruminated on a wrong thought until it became a motivation to him. Adam no doubt gave more than cursory consideration to the fruit. Whatever his reasoning was, he clearly disobeyed a clear command pf God.

In fact, this is the temptation common to us all:

Exactly. The more you explain it, the more it sounds like Adam is in the same boat as we are.

Only odd thing in your post is saying Adam was not ignorant of evil before he ate of the forbidden tree.
If he wasn't, what was the tree of knowledge of good and evil thing all about?
If he already knew evil, what was it he got? Just knowledge of Good?
Did God lie about what the tree was? Did he put it there just as a temptation so Adam & Eve could be tempted? That explanation would make me cringe.

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@Leadfoot,

so, if I may enter uninvited, You folks consider that Adam was a real living person and not merely some literary "symbol" created to make a legend about creation ?

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@farmerman,

You are always welcome farmer.

Assuming you come from a theist position, logically there had to be a first man and woman created by God. I do not know if God created their bodies 'from scratch' or used an existing design. (neither would contradict the bible) In either case, the thing that differentiates them from other species was whatever God 'breathed' into them that creates consciousness/self awareness. Some call it a soul or spirit. It seems reasonable that he would start with a single pair and that jibes with the bible account as well.

As far as names go, Adam is as good as any.

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@Leadfoot,

Re read this sentence:

I wrote:

Adam was not ignorant as in not being able to recognize evil. Instead, he had an innate direction to avoid it.

His response to wrong thoughts would have been automatic. There's an old saying: "You can't stop a bird from flying over your head; but you can prevent him from building a nest in your hair." Even one who has a perfect conscience would no doubt occasionally have a wrong thought, perhaps when seeing an unattended treasure. But his conscience would lead him to reject the thought. Us, not necessarily.

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@neologist,

Quote:

Adam was not ignorant as in not being able to recognize evil.

Then that sounds like he already had what was said to be available in the tree of knowledge of good and evil. You haven't said what the tree provided beyond what he already had.

Quote:

Even one who has a perfect conscience would no doubt occasionally have a wrong thought, perhaps when seeing an unattended treasure. But his conscience would lead him to reject the thought. Us, not necessarily.

That sounds like the situation all of us have today. Your explanations of the difference are so vague, non-specific and parallel with conditions we see around and within us as to make no sense when you say there is a difference between us and Adam.

We seem to face the very same challenges. Why do those things you said about Adam not apply to us?

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@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

We seem to face the very same challenges. Why do those things you said about Adam not apply to us?

They do. But while Adam was perfect, we are not. Adam has no mitigating circumstances.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
You still haven't explained the reason why Adam cannot be forgiven, unless you're offering a circular reasoning.
Adam was perfect. How could he have provided an excuse?

An excuse in light of "perfection?" I think your ideas of "perfection" diverge from the accepted definitions.

neologist wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
How do we sin inadvertently?
Have you never done something for which you feel regret?

Again, your ideas of "inadvertent" diverge from accepted definitions.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

neologist wrote:

Agreed with the possible exception of someone who is downright nasty

...you mean disturbed...nasty ? Don't know what it means. (I really don't)

He's probably using "nasty" to mean something along the lines of "sociopathic," but he tends to get creative with his definitions, so I may be mistaken.

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

so, if I may enter uninvited, You folks consider that Adam was a real living person and not merely some literary "symbol" created to make a legend about creation ?

Yeah, I'm indulging them for the sake of argument.

The rationalization get really creative when these stories get taken literally.

1 Reply

@neologist,

Quote:

They do. But while Adam was perfect, we are not. Adam has no mitigating circumstances.

Don't know why I didn't see this earlier. You are basing everything on your belief that Adam was created perfect. Logically, I would think God wanted Adam to have the knowledge but to have it by his own choice. And nowhere that I can see does the bible say Adam was perfect. That must be part of your religious teachings but it has no foundation.

On the other hand, God said Job WAS a perfect man. Job was one of 'us'. This is one reason why I think God wanted us to have the knowledge of good and evil. Adam was incomplete for God's plan and therefore, not perfect.

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@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

. . . And nowhere that I can see does the bible say Adam was perfect. That must be part of your religious teachings but it has no foundation.

You probably missed this statement by the same person who wrote Genesis:

Quote:

He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. (Deuteronomy32:4)

Leadfoot wrote:

On the other hand, God said Job WAS a perfect man. Job was one of 'us'.

Job was one of 'us', certainly; but where is it said that he was perfect?

Leadfoot wrote:

This is one reason why I think God wanted us to have the knowledge of good and evil.

Then, explain why the consequence of obtaining that knowledge resulted in death.

Leadfoot wrote:

Adam was incomplete for God's plan and therefore, not perfect.

Your opinion noted.

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@InfraBlue,

Not nearly as creative as the indulgences.

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@neologist,

Quote:

Leadfoot wrote:
". . . And nowhere that I can see does the bible say Adam was perfect. That must be part of your religious teachings but it has no foundation."

You probably missed this statement by the same person who wrote Genesis:
Quote:
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. (Deuteronomy32:4)

Oh come now, you are being ridiculous in conflating this literally with Adam. Yes, God's work is perfect, that includes the creation of beings of free will who can and do choose the wrong path. It was necessary for his perfect plan which is the perfection spoken of in the verse you cited.
And if you take that verse literally, are YOU and I perfect?

Quote:

Leadfoot wrote:
"On the other hand, God said Job WAS a perfect man. Job was one of 'us'."

Job was one of 'us', certainly; but where is it said that he was perfect?

Read Job 1:vs 1 &8 I thought you knew your bible. If you don't get that, I give up on this discussion.

Quote:

Leadfoot wrote:

"This is one reason why I think God wanted us to have the knowledge of good and evil. "

Then, explain why the consequence of obtaining that knowledge resulted in death.

It led to this grand, glorious, gut wrenching thing we are living right now. It is sifting the wheat from the chaff and 'Death' is only temporary as you already know.

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@neologist,

You're correct, our bodies are no longer concient. Our souls on the other hand are concient, there concient all through our lives on earth and into the afterlife. Our choice was made when we were still living on earth. Im sorry, but you see the verse that you used was pulled out of context. During this time King Solomon, who had enjoyed all of the pleasures that earth was capable of giving, was writing during a time of great sorrow in which he explained that all the living know that they will die someday and when they die they no longer can physicaly do anything in the sorld. King Solomon was telling people that all the success and all the fame and all the money that you recieve on earth sill mean nothing when you are dead. He goes on explaining how people will forget your name, people will forget what you did in your life, all amounting to nothing more than dust in the wind. "Never again will they have part in anything that happens under the sun again". Being "under the sun" representing being on earth.

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@jwagner,

The afterlife is eternity, im curious, since you believe in an afterlife do you believe in someone who created the afterlife?

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@Leadfoot,

Much to respond to. Sorry for not using quote function.
God's work is perfect. Humans lost their perfection when the first human sinned. So we are not perfect.

I know the book of Job quite well. He is referred to as an upright man.
But not perfect. Read it again.

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@jwagner,

Let me guess. English is not your first language. As a non native speaker, you do quite well. But as a bible scholar, you have missed the point. When Adam sinned, he received the sentence of death. If anything other than a return to dust were involved, it would have been mentioned in Genesis, ch. 3.

The first lie was when Satan told Eve "You certainly will not die" (Genesis3:4). But, as you know, both Eve and Adam are no longer here.

1 Reply

@neologist,

Quote:

I know the book of Job quite well. He is referred to as an upright man.
But not perfect. Read it again.

I take it you are using some version of the bible that has expunged a word or two?

Quote:

Job 1:1-8 KJV
[1] There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

[8] And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

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@Leadfoot,

Interesting.
Time for a Hebrew interlinear. . .
Since Moses wrote the text in Deuteronomy also.
But had Job been perfect, he would not have needed correction by God. Nor would he have needed to apologize in ch 40, vs 4: "Look! I am unworthy"

1 Reply

@neologist,

Quote:

Interesting.
Time for a Hebrew interlinear. . .
Since Moses wrote the text in Deuteronomy also.
But had Job been perfect, he would not have needed correction by God. Nor would he have needed to apologize in ch 40, vs 4: "Look! I am unworthy"

That part of Job is most interesting. This follows Job's tribulations which he bore as perfectly as any man could. There was nothing more that could be expected of him. And yet God choose that moment to recite back to him the many way in which God was greater than man. To add insult to injury, some of it was the very words that Job replied to his 'friends' who told him he needed to straighten himself out.

But note that God did not 'correct' him, only pointed out how great God himself was. Job hardly needed to be told that. A less than perfect man would have broken at that point and told God to get lost, but he didn't. With perfect humility he said he was vile compared to God. To paraphrase what he said next: What can I possibly say, there is nothing, I'm broken here at your feet.

To my reading, God then told Job what kind of great man he really was. The language is very obscure but I believe the spirit reveals what God says if you read it open mindedly. He calls Job 'Behemoth', tells him he is the chief of the ways of God and many other things that Job was too humble to claim for himself. And of course God then restores all that Job lost and more.

I can not imagine a more perfect man than Job.

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Can Souls in Hell be Forgiven and Saved and Go to Heaven?

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