@InfraBlue,
Quote:
In regard to Tartarus 2 Peter 2:9 states, "The Lord hath known to rescue pious ones out of temptation, and unrighteous ones to a day of judgment, being punished, to keep" (Young's literal translation). It does not refer only to angels but generally to "unrighteous ones."
If you open up and read through 2Peter chapter 2, you will notice a division of text between Pauls reference to Tartarus in verse 4 and your quote from verse 9,
Quote:4For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved, 5and the old world did not spare, but the eighth person, Noah, of righteousness a preacher, did keep, a flood on the world of the impious having brought, 6and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah having turned to ashes, with an overthrow did condemn, an example to those about to be impious having set [them];
7and righteous Lot, worn down by the conduct in lasciviousness of the impious, He did rescue, 8for in seeing and hearing, the righteous man, dwelling among them, day by day the righteous soul with unlawful works was harassing. 9The Lord hath known to rescue pious ones out of temptation, and unrighteous ones to a day of judgment, being punished, to keep,
This was a list of examples of previous judgements made by this God and the punishments dished out, together with those he spared. This is shortly before he continues from 10 onwards to speak of a further judgement to come,
Quote:and these, as irrational natural beasts, made to be caught and destroyed — in what things they are ignorant of, speaking evil — in their destruction shall be destroyed,
the punishment for which appears to be destruction, rather than incarceration. I may be wrong, but I don't believe that 2 Peter 2 verse 9 is regarding Tartarus
Quote:I don't know what you mean by "external influences," as if the bible texts were written in a vacuum.
I'm not too concerned by influences at the time, moreso by the influences since, Influences through rationalisation philosophy and theology throughout the centuries following Christianity's conception, one such example would be Athenagorus. I'm not convinced that Christian beliefs now are much like they were at it's inception.
I appreciate your use of scripture in your discussion Infra and I have not ignored them, I'll be back when I get a chance to have a look through them
@Smileyrius,
Smileyrius wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
In regard to Tartarus 2 Peter 2:9 states, "The Lord hath known to rescue pious ones out of temptation, and unrighteous ones to a day of judgment, being punished, to keep" (Young's literal translation). It does not refer only to angels but generally to "unrighteous ones."
If you open up and read through 2Peter chapter 2, you will notice a division of text between Pauls reference to Tartarus in verse 4 and your quote from verse 9,
Quote:4For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved, 5and the old world did not spare, but the eighth person, Noah, of righteousness a preacher, did keep, a flood on the world of the impious having brought, 6and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah having turned to ashes, with an overthrow did condemn, an example to those about to be impious having set [them];
7and righteous Lot, worn down by the conduct in lasciviousness of the impious, He did rescue, 8for in seeing and hearing, the righteous man, dwelling among them, day by day the righteous soul with unlawful works was harassing. 9The Lord hath known to rescue pious ones out of temptation, and unrighteous ones to a day of judgment, being punished, to keep,
This was a list of examples of previous judgements made by this God and the punishments dished out, together with those he spared.
To what "division" are you referring? By your own explanation this list is an example of those spared and those "unrighteous ones to a day of judgement, being punished, to keep."
Smielyrius wrote:This is shortly before he continues from 10 onwards to speak of a further judgement to come,
Quote:and these, as irrational natural beasts, made to be caught and destroyed — in what things they are ignorant of, speaking evil — in their destruction shall be destroyed,
the punishment for which appears to be destruction, rather than incarceration. I may be wrong, but I don't believe that 2 Peter 2 verse 9 is regarding Tartarus.
You're conflating the "further judgement to come" with the "chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver to judgment, having been reserved" and "unrighteous ones to a day of judgment, being punished, to keep." The punishment of the chains of thick gloom of Tartaurs precedes the "further judgement to come."
Smileyrius wrote:InfraBlue wrote:I don't know what you mean by "external influences," as if the bible texts were written in a vacuum.
I'm not too concerned by influences at the time, moreso by the influences since, Influences through rationalisation philosophy and theology throughout the centuries following Christianity's conception, one such example would be Athenagorus. I'm not convinced that Christian beliefs now are much like they were at it's inception.
It isn't rational to ignore the influences of the culture during which these very texts were written, but be "concerned" about later interpretive influences. Greek religion and theological philosophy (e.g. that of Xenophanes of Colophon, Epicurus, etc,) were around centuries before the NT texts were written. It's naive to think that the culture behind the very language that these texts were written in could be excised by lack of "concern."
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:. . . It isn't rational to ignore the influences of the culture during which these very texts were written, but be "concerned" about later interpretive influences. Greek religion and theological philosophy (e.g. that of Xenophanes of Colophon, Epicurus, etc,) were around centuries before the NT texts were written. It's naive to think that the culture behind the very language that these texts were written in could be excised by lack of "concern.". . .
Of course. Wishing it so makes no sense.
One would need sufficient reason to conclude that Greek Scriptures were written with the Hebrew understanding of hades as equivalent to sheol and in harmony with Ecclesiastes 9: 5,6.
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:. . . It isn't rational to ignore the influences of the culture during which these very texts were written, but be "concerned" about later interpretive influences. Greek religion and theological philosophy (e.g. that of Xenophanes of Colophon, Epicurus, etc,) were around centuries before the NT texts were written. It's naive to think that the culture behind the very language that these texts were written in could be excised by lack of "concern.". . .
Of course. Wishing it so makes no sense.
One would need sufficient reason to conclude that Greek Scriptures were written with the Hebrew understanding of hades as equivalent to sheol and in harmony with Ecclesiastes 9: 5,6.
So, what's your sufficient reason to conclude that Greek Scriptures were written with the Hebrew understanding of Hades as equivalent to sheol and in harmony with Ecclesiastes 9:5,64? The idea that the entire Greek Scriptures were written around one passage is risibly simplistic.
Its better to restrain from doing wrong within life so that you don't suffer in Hell.
@InfraBlue,
Quote:To what "division" are you referring?
Perhaps an ambiguous term I used, I was referring to the scriptures between the mention of tartarus and the judgment of the unrighteous - (you were right about my error in the conflation of the incarceration of the angels and their judgment, I had not intended to suggest their judgment had already come)
The question raised somewhere between us is where are the wicked identified in this chapter are to be kept until their judgment. Gods messengers, or angels, are kept in Tartarus, that much is stated, but it does not identify in these scriptures that the wicked identified in the preceding verses are kept there also. I am unsure as to whether you are indicating that Tartarus and Hades are the same thing, I hope you don't mind my asking
Smiley,
Always a pleasure never a chore
@InfraBlue,
Quote:It isn't rational to ignore the influences of the culture during which these very texts were written, but be "concerned" about later interpretive influences. Greek religion and theological philosophy
I suppose I believe that scripture is the closest thing we have to the original teachings, but we do not have the original teachings through which to compare them against so it is a best guess scenario. If a judgment day indeed comes, I like to think that if these teachings are skewered along a Greek Kebab of beliefs and philosophy, I could at the very least say "I tried according to the writings I had"
We do however have scripture to check any teachings that have arisen since. 1 John tells us to test every inspired expression, to see if it originates with God,
That is why I study, to examine the origin of teachings and understandings. I am under no illusion that I have or will ever have a perfect understanding, but I certainly am happy that in my hour of judgment, should that day exist, I have tried. I hope that makes some sense, If however no God exists, I haven't any regrets
every man thinks his reasoning is rational, so who am I to tell you that mine is
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:So, what's your sufficient reason to conclude that Greek Scriptures were written with the Hebrew understanding of Hades as equivalent to sheol and in harmony with Ecclesiastes 9:5,64? The idea that the entire Greek Scriptures were written around one passage is risibly simplistic.
To conclude that "one passage" constitutes the entirety of evidence is equally simplistic. Here's another, speaking of the time of death:
Quote:. . . On that very day his thoughts perish. (Psalm 146:4)
In fact, the Hebrew texts consistently deliver the same message:
When you're dead, you're dead.
@Smileyrius,
Most people have guesses about the important issues of life. It's proven by the very fact that man have created many different religions, and many follow them. Whose to judge another human on what's right and what's wrong? It is the nature of the beast called humanity.
@Smileyrius,
Smileyrius wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:To what "division" are you referring?
Perhaps an ambiguous term I used, I was referring to the scriptures between the mention of tartarus and the judgment of the unrighteous - (you were right about my error in the conflation of the incarceration of the angels and their judgment, I had not intended to suggest their judgment had already come)
The mention of Tartarus
is the judgement of the unrighteous, "to a day of judgment, being punished, to keep." Again, the scriptures between are a list those spared and those unrighteous ones, "to a day of judgment, being punished, to keep."
Smileyrius wrote:The question raised somewhere between us is where are the wicked identified in this chapter are to be kept until their judgment. Gods messengers, or angels, are kept in Tartarus, that much is stated, but it does not identify in these scriptures that the wicked identified in the preceding verses are kept there also.
Again, it's a list of those spared and those unrighteous ones, "to a day of judgment, being punished, to keep."
In your reasoning, to what does, "to a day of judgment, being punished, to keep" refer to given the context of those passages?
Smileyrius wrote:I am unsure as to whether you are indicating that Tartarus and Hades are the same thing, I hope you don't mind my asking
Given the text, Tartarus reads as a place within Hades where punishment is dealt to those unrighteous ones.
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:So, what's your sufficient reason to conclude that Greek Scriptures were written with the Hebrew understanding of Hades as equivalent to sheol and in harmony with Ecclesiastes 9:5,64? The idea that the entire Greek Scriptures were written around one passage is risibly simplistic.
To conclude that "one passage" constitutes the entirety of evidence is equally simplistic.
It was simplistic to have provided only one passage as your evidence.
neologist wrote:Here's another, speaking of the time of death:
Quote:. . . On that very day his thoughts perish. (Psalm 146:4)
Or alternately, "When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing." (New International Version)
"When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish."(English Standard Version)
etc.
neologist wrote:In fact, the Hebrew texts consistently deliver the same message:
When you're dead, you're dead.
Sure, one enters
sheol, the abode of the dead, inhabited by
rephaim.
@InfraBlue,
Quote:Tartarus reads as a place within Hades where punishment is dealt to those unrighteous ones.
In Greek Mythology, Tartarus is said to be "as far below Hades as the earth is below the heavens". Paul uses the term to denote the keeping place of Gods messengers i.e angels from the time of the flood, those who were no longer allowed into the heavens, I would hazard that these are unlikely to be equated with wicked humankind as I am not sure what message God would give to wicked humans, and to whom he would send it.
Quote:In your reasoning, to what does, "to a day of judgment, being punished, to keep" refer to given the context of those passages?
trying to keep it simple, I see it as
they are reserved for punishment which will be dealt on the day of judgment, and as he explains in verses 1,3 and 12 it is my understanding that this will be their destruction.
@Smileyrius,
So what makes Paul an expert on Greek mythology? Almost all accounts of other mythologies have been corrupted by the middle eastern claptrap spread around by christians. Tartaros (note the spelling) was one of the Titans--a personality, not a place. Hades was also a Titan, a personality. Leave it to those ignorant jokers in christianity to pontificate on things about which they really know nothing.
@Setanta,
You're likely right, Myths and legends of old can often only really be seen through a gastric endoscopy of the cultures that swallowed them, not the clearest lense through which to view.
The problem is, i think, unique. Before christianity was made the state religion of Rome (which was not done by Constantine), people were required to practice the state religion, the civic religion of Rome. But they just paid lip service to it, and nobody cared. Once a year, you'd go to the market and buy a chicken, then take it over to the temple, where they'd slaughter the chicken, and the haruspex would read the entrails. Then they'd write down that Smileyrus had been a good boy, and they'd have chicken soup for supper. On a good day, they have roast chicken for everyone. The rest of the year, you were able to practice whatever religion you preferred. Among the legionaries and the orders of Equites and Patres, the cult of Mithras was very popular, and they regarded christianity as a religion of women and slaves--i.e., they were contemptuous of it.
The Norse and the Danes referred to your boy Jesus as the nailed god, and called him white christ--a reference not to skin color, but to the robes worn by the members of the Insular Church, which were made of undyed wool. They were pretty contemptuous, too. Olaf Tryggvason forced the Norse to convert by torturing the leading men of a town or village, until everyone lined up to sign on. Tryggvason leapt to his death in the sea when he saw he was about to be defeated by the Danes and Goths (i.e., the Swedes), and a lot of Norse dropped the christian bullsh*t right way. Iceland had been "converted" by the threat of violence, and when they learned that Tryggvason was dead, they not only dropped the christian bullsh*t, they slaughtered most of the priests and monks who had come to feed off of them. Iceland only gradually became christian because their merchants found it politic to become christians for sake of trade with mainland Europe.
Among the Kievan Rus (i.e., ancestors of the Russians), conversion to christianity was not popular. There was a revival of so-called paganism, and many priests and monks found it politic to go visit the Patriarch in Constantinople. Jarl Hakkon of what we call Norway and a Dane, Swein Forkbeard, went out on proselytizing missions to revive so-called paganism. Personally, i see little to choose between Odin and Thor, and the nailed god. The old gods were a good deal more entertaining, and didn't care if you got drunk or who you screwed.
In most cases, conversion to christianity followed a pattern of propping up a "king" in his lust for power, with the people dragged along, willing or not. The ancient Germanic peoples didn't have much use for kings (cf. the Germania of Tacitus), but the christians came along and told them that "god" had ordained it. Powerful men saw that as useful, so they signed up and told their people they'd better do the same.
Of course, the christians corrupted everything they touched, so, for example, spring sacred to Sulis, the goddess of holy wells, were declared pagan. (The original name of the city of Bath was Aquae Sulis--the waters of Sulis, referring to the hot springs there.) When that didn't work, they were given the names of "saints," and now the people were free to resort to them again. The old people weren't fooled, though. When they figured out what the priests were up to, they just stopped telling the priests about sacred springs and sacred groves. Holy rollers were complaining about this right up to the end of the 19th century. I personally know of "wise women " in Ireland, who provide charms and incantations. You go to the national health service, and then drop by the wise woman on the way home, just to be on the safe side.
Christianity corrupts everything it touches.
@Setanta,
Great post. history is often a fascination for me Set, It strikes me that Christianity has spread in pretty much the same way a virus does, using methods that by it's own teachings would be considered wholly "unchristian."
I recently read about Tanchelm of Antwerp, who went one further than to use divine appointment as a claim to authority, He went as far as to claim himself the son of God and walked around in gold robes and gold threads in his hair. He gathered a large following of people who would offer him their wives and children as his concubines and would purchase and drink his bathwater to receive a blessing. I almost feel sorry for anyone mindless enough to do such a thing.
Faith is hugely exploitable I have no doubt that we are only discussing a tiny portion of religious based abuse and oppression through the ages by those who claim to represent Christ. 2 Peter Chapter 2 which me and Infra are discussing speaks about those who would act in a despicable way and cause "the way of truth to be spoken of abusively" would "exploit followers with deceitful words"
Check and check.
@Smileyrius,
I would dissent from that only to point out that the tiny portion have consistently been the religious leaders.
Would you mind if I ask a few questions about your faith Manden? I am curious to know a few things.
What is the purpose of the Earth in Gods Masterplan for mankind? What happens to the soul once we die if it does not die with us?
I appreciate your time chap.
Thanks Manden, I appreciate the response. I understand the school ethos, but I am sure you agree that by any standard, this school is not providing many scholars, In what way does God teach, and how does he advertise his presence?
