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Can Souls in Hell be Forgiven and Saved and Go to Heaven?

 
 
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2016 01:39 pm
@Harry Blake,
Quote:
God's using Satan to test us like a drill sergeant.

It sounds like you've become another person who let's the god off the hook by coming up with bogus justification for its inability to stop Satan.
Harry Blake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2016 06:36 pm
@Glennn,
said-"It sounds like you've become another person who let's the god off the hook by coming up with bogus justification for its inability to stop Satan"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good for you, you agree there's a Satan!
And yes he's a bit of a rotter-
Jesus said- "Satan has bound this crippled woman for eighteen years" (Luke 13:16) then he cured her.
Wait, I feel a speculation coming on!- Perhaps Satan is not a "person" but a bunch of bad vibes sloshing around the universe disrupting the fragile harmony and triggering birth defects in wombs, illness and disease, tornadoes and earthquakes etc.
And perhaps he gets his strength and power by drawing on all the godless bad vibes churned out by atheists and nonchristians.
It's not a new idea- "Whatever the natural cause, sin is the true cause of all earthquakes." - John Wesley (1703 - 1791)


Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2016 06:46 pm
@Harry Blake,
Quote:
Good for you, you agree there's a Satan!

No. I'm showing you the inconsistencies you hold onto concerning the nature of your god. Your god appears to be helpless when it came to doing something about a corrupting influence. Your god's inaction is a testament to that fact.
Quote:
And perhaps he gets his strength and power by drawing on all the godless bad vibes churned out by atheists and nonchristians.

I'm afraid that atheists and non-Christians could hardly compare to the bad vibes that will be churned out by the eternal torture that your god will subject beings of its own creation to.
Harry Blake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2016 06:57 pm
@Glennn,
said- "Your god appears to be helpless when it came to doing something about a corrupting influence. Your god's inaction is a testament to that fact"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aren't my posts displaying on your monitor?
I've already explained that the earth is a Testing Ground to see who Satan suckers in, and to see who knows how to resist him.
"Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life.." (James 1:12)

Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2016 06:59 pm
@Harry Blake,
And of course you can point me to the part in the Bible that says your god put Satan here to serve as a test.

We can pick this up later. For now, find that verse or verses.
Harry Blake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2016 07:42 pm
@Glennn,
said- "And of course you can point me to the part in the Bible that says your god put Satan here to serve as a test"
-------------------------------------------------------

God gave him permission to have a go at Job to test him -
"The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life.” (Job 2:6)
And before that Satan talked Eve into making a fool of herself with the fruit business and thereby failing the test.
Later he even tried to tempt Jesus in the wilderness, so if he tried it with him, he certainly tries it with us..Smile

Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2016 07:55 pm
@Harry Blake,
No, you misunderstand my question. I'm asking you to point me to the part in the Bible that states that your god created Satan for the purpose of testing his own created beings.

Is it your contention that your god created us for the purpose of testing us, and then subjecting those who fail the test to never-ending torture? If that is your contention, then you are willingly loving a being who knew full well that a multitude of its own created beings were going to suffer never-ending torture.

Ever wonder why your god doesn't just zap sinners out of existence instead of torturing them for eternity?
Harry Blake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2016 03:10 am
@Glennn,
said- "Ever wonder why your god doesn't just zap sinners out of existence instead of torturing them for eternity?"
-----------------------------------------------

No, I never wonder because I don't give two hoots what happens to Jesus-rejecters, they had their chance to like Jesus but blew it..Smile
Smileyrius
 
  3  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2016 06:20 am
@Harry Blake,
Hi Harry my friend, welcome to A2k or welcome back if you have been here before

Which of the Hells in the bible do you suppose people are consigned to? Hell (Sheol/Hades) Hell (Gehenna) or Hell (Tartaroo)? just helps me to know where you are coming from, or indeed where I am going Wink

A slight aside, The testing ground theory is one I have had issue with in the past, what happens to those who are not tested? for example, babies and children, or those mentally incapacitated? what of those who do not hear about a god before death?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2016 08:10 am
@Smileyrius,
Quote:
A slight aside, The testing ground theory is one I have had issue with in the past, what happens to those who are not tested? for example, babies and children, or those mentally incapacitated? what of those who do not hear about a god before death?
I'm not Harry nor do I have the answer to that question but have wondered myself about it.

It has occurred to me though, that because we are more than 100+ pounds of hamburger (have a soul), is it possible that some people were not given one? As I look around, it sometimes looks that way. I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt but there are times that I can detect nothing beyond animal existence in some. And some of them are very nice animals.
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2016 08:45 am
@Harry Blake,
Quote:
No, I never wonder because I don't give two hoots what happens to Jesus-rejecters,

So, you love and worship a being who could zap sinners out of existence, but has instead chosen to subject them to never-ending torture. And you don't see your alleged love of this being as being motivated by fear? The reason you don't logically question your god's method of dealing with rejection is that you don't want to become a victim of its method of dealing with rejection. In other words, you're not running to the arms of this god; you're running from the threat of eternal torture. That threat has caused you pretend that you can love what you fear, and to fear what you love. You're simply siding with the bully for no other reason than to not be its victim.
_____________________________________________

And you forgot to address this:

Point me to the part in the Bible that states that your god created Satan for the purpose of testing his own created beings.

Is it your contention that your god created us for the purpose of testing us, and then subjecting those who fail the test to never-ending torture? If that is your contention, then you are willingly loving a being who knew full well that a multitude of its own created beings were going to suffer never-ending torture at its hands.

0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2016 10:55 am
http://johnpavlovitz.com/2016/02/08/christian-the-reason-so-many-people-are-losing-faith-may-be-you/

Quote:
If we’re honest, in the course of a given day out there most of us are usually far more interested and invested in winning arguments, proving points, garnering Retweets, and throwing shade than we are reflecting the compassion and humility and dignity of Christ to people in our path. We have so strayed from the plot and so made God in our own nasty image, that we’ve convinced ourselves the best answer to the question, “What Would Jesus Do?”—is be a jackass.



this may in part explain how I left Christianity

too many Christian posters acting like jackasses

Quote:
I’ve always contended that the best evangelism is simply to tell people that you’re a Christian and then not be a complete jerk.


Quote:
Yes, millions of people leave the faith because the Church has hurt them, but so many times that wounding is not done from a distance by some massive, faceless entity, but by a familiar assailant close enough to cut them. That mortal damage is inflicted in the cruel words and vengeful posts and mean-spirited rants of those they know or encounter in community.

Christian, as you think about the root causes for so many people saying no to religion, don’t just look at the culture or people’s sin or a broken system or a failing institution—look in the mirror.
0 Replies
 
Smileyrius
 
  3  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2016 10:59 am
@Leadfoot,
I appreciate the concept Lead, it raises a certain question over what is the soul, are we souls or do we have a whispy inner being. What leads you to a belief in the latter?
under the assumption that the latter is the case, you pose the situation where some of us are players, and others merely pawns which makes for an interesting speculation, can a woman who "has" a soul give birth to a child "without a soul", if so why does her child not have a soul? is this decided beforehand? does no one with a soul die young?

There is also the question of a "fair test" questioning the justice or validity behind the test, one man is born into a life of luxury, another into poverty, one into a life of peace, another into a war torn land, furthermore another is born Christian, another Muslim, some may live for 20years, others 50, and exponentially some have far longer to struggle before they die.
This test is not a level playing field, so how can one harvest accurate and useful results?

I appreciate your thoughts Lead, and I apologise in advance for the wall of text,
Smileyrius
 
  4  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2016 11:04 am
Quote:
I’ve always contended that the best evangelism is simply to tell people that you’re a Christian and then not be a complete jerk.

quote of the week Smile
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2016 11:28 am
@Smileyrius,
And then there's Hiroshima and Nagasaki. boooooom! and they're all gone.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2016 11:39 am
@Smileyrius,
Quote:
A appreciate the concept Lead, it raises a certain question over what is the soul, are we souls or do we have a whispy inner being. What leads you to a belief in the latter?
Good question, and I have only the 'whispiest' of evidence to support an answer. It's just the presence of 'whatever it is' in people that allows them to act in ways that can't be described or explained by any of the conventional means. The examples are too varied and wide to give but I'm not talking about altruism, kindness, survival instinct, social conditioning, etc. Perhaps the only example I can give is asking the kind of questions we see in threads like this. Yeah, that could be explained by 'religious obligation', desire to win arguments, etc. but that does not explain when they do it alone and not trying to impress anyone. I've been told that it's because there 'must be some evolutionary advantage' to it. Made me laugh my ass off.

Quote:
under the assumption that the latter is the case, you pose the situation where some of us are players, and others merely pawns which makes for an interesting speculation, can a woman who "has" a soul give birth to a child "without a soul", if so why does her child not have a soul? is this decided beforehand? does no one with a soul die young?

I can only assume that God can give a soul or take it back from anyone he chooses at any time he chooses. The why and how of that is definitely above my pay-grade. Maybe he knows the young soul he takes has already made the crucial decisions of it's life.

Quote:
There is also the question of a "fair test" questioning the justice or validity behind the test, one man is born into a life of luxury, another into poverty, one into a life of peace, another into a war torn land, furthermore another is born Christian, another Muslim, some may live for 20years, others 50, and exponentially some have far longer to struggle before they die.
This test is not a level playing field, so how can one harvest accurate and useful results?

More whispy theory but I think one of two things must be true. Either the life you are given is the best case scenario or the worst case scenario for you to figure out 'what its all about'. Its a highly individualized thing. What would be hard to endure for one might be easy for another. I think this 'individuation' was part of the goal. Cookie cutter souls are not what he was after.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2016 11:42 am
@Leadfoot,
I always said the religion was an accident of birth. The majority follows the religion of their parents, culture, and country.
neologist
 
  2  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2016 12:12 pm
@Harry Blake,
Harry Blake, to neo wrote:
Instead of offering us "hints", why don't you simply tell us what your own view is of what happens to us after our bodies die, then we can take it from there, or is it a divine secret that's only been revealed to you?..Wink
My own view is irrelevant, as is yours. But, checking the owners' manual:
Quote:
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Genesis 2: 16,17)
If anything more than death were to be a consequence of disobedience, now would be the time to say so, don't you think?

Then there is the first lie:
Quote:
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)
Aside from Solomon's mention of death being a state of unconsciousness, there is, among many others:
Quote:
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.(John 11: 11-13)
As for death, it has never been part of God's purpose for sentient beings:
Quote:
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14)
Quote:
. . . and there shall be no more death . . . (Revelation 21:4)
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  2  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2016 12:26 pm
@Harry Blake,
Harry Blake, to Glenn wrote:
who said- "Ever wonder why your god doesn't just zap sinners out of existence instead of torturing them for eternity?"
-----------------------------------------------

No, I never wonder because I don't give two hoots what happens to Jesus-rejecters, they had their chance to like Jesus but blew it..Smile
As far as liking Jesus being sufficient, you may not have seen this:
Quote:
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (Matthew 7: 21-23)
And, apparently, God does not share your opinion of lost sheep:
Quote:
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (2Peter 3:9)
I'm sure glad God has not given you any authority over us poor folks.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2016 02:02 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I always said the religion was an accident of birth. The majority follows the religion of their parents, culture, and country.
That could be true, but not a universal truth. The bible never recommends being a member of the majority.
 

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