muslim1 wrote:Why does Christianity prevent priests from their natural desires (marriage, having children), doesn't this go against the nature that God created in people? And also, why does Christianity prevent priests from marrying and having sons (because it maybe goes against their purity) and then attributes sons to God (who is the Most Pure and is far from any imperfection)?
Can you please who me where in the scriptures it says this?
Take Care for now and God Bless!
Not entirely sure, but according to this, Priests mustn't shave.
Priests must not shave their heads or shave off the edges of their beards or cut their bodies - Leviticus 21:5.
The same chapter states that Priests can only marry virgins in order to stay pure (possibly the Catholic stance is, better not to marry so to be on the safe side) and that Priests may not enter place where there is a dead body. Doesn't that, however, make church graveyards and doing funeral rites impossible?
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (Galatians 2:21; 5:4)
Thats a complete fallacy, and neither you nor anyone can question what I know to be the absolute truth. Furthermore I don't force my belief upon others, as an evangelist, one of the biggest mistakes is forcing your beliefs upon others. I obey what the scriptures instruct me to, and not what man tells me what I should do. Here are examples of when to cease from conversing with those who cross the line. Not only does the bible condemn debate, but that Jesus said:
Quote:
John 15:20 - Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
Jesus also said:
Quote:
Matthew 10:14 - And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
if a person fails to love one person who is their enemy, this doesn't make them an apostate
So basically in context, according to you, Allah is saying not to take Jews and Christians as a godlike person, since our Guardian and Protector is God!
That sounds contextually incorrect, why would Allah compare Himself to human beings?
Don't be so sure about this, Quran from God???
Fine with me, I have absolutely no doubt that Christ (The word of God) created you and thus is your Creator. We can go back and forth and this, however this would be "debate" rather than a civil discussion.
Once again, you are being ridiculous (perhaps not intentional). When I meant imperfection, nearly all the muslims and even Christians would agree that I was referring to sin and a fallen nature.
No offense, but that seems like a cop out. That would also mean that it wouldn't be necessary for me to study the Quran, since the bible tells me that "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue" (2 Peter 1:3), which means that the Bible alone is sufficient, not mormonisms extra-biblical teachings or the Quran. Your only argument would have to be that the Quran is the only truth, however that is feeble since anyone who stands firm in their belief can say the same in regards to their faith.
OK! I'll bear with you a little longer....BTW, I believe that the Bible is the absolute truth and stands above the Quran, do you believe that I must try convining you to the end? and do you believe that even if I tried that you will change your belief? and if not, then why bother? Do you see my point now?
human beings are responsible for translating both the Quran and the Bible, and no human is infallible.
Quoting and singling out a passage from the Quran doesn't validate is authenticity, because it says so? and because the person who says this describes Himself as God?
your only argument is the "possiblity" of manuscriptural or copyists errors, which the Quran is also subject to
I would like to begin by saying that no Christian is obliged or commanded to follow the Levitical Laws of the Old Testament, secondly the Levitical Laws were specifically for the Jews and the above passage refers specifcally to Jewish High priests and not Christians. Furthermore, Christians are under the covenant of Grace, not the Law. There are over 600 laws found in the Old Testament
But, Jesus (peace be upon him) is not God nor the son of God.
where did that come from, you or the Koran?
Muslim1, I do not believe in your religion I am sure you know. But, I am willing to try to understand it more than I do now.
1. Please explain the crusades to me, then. This was Islam and Christianity at war.
2. Please explain to me why I heard with my own two ears, a devout Muslim say, "Allah commands us to kill the infidels of Los Angels, and Sydney, Australia. Allah commands us to slit the throats of the infidels."
3. Why do you deny that Jesus Christ is and was the Son of God? Can you give me reference for this belief?
Muhammed was not a true prophet. True prophets do not marry six year old girls and have sex with them when they are nine years old.
Thank you ??????? for your response and remarks,
It is not about forcing your belief on the others, but rather to try your best to save the others from God's punishment. You said that as a Christian, you love your enemies: If you choose a moment to stop calling others (who "cross the line") wouldn't this mean letting them face punishment and Hellfire? isn't this incompatible with your love for them?
In Islam, since only God knows the moment from which there is no hope to guide a person, we have to spend our whole life in trying to save people from Hell, not by forcing Islam on them, but by presenting the truth of Islam to them as best as possible.
And who knows? maybe we will be the cause of guidance of a person and then have a tremendous reward in the Hereafter from your (and my) Creator.
So what other sins (besides not loving Muslims) make you describe America as "an apostate Nation and an example of what false Christianity is founded on"?
Notice that I also wrote "We also rely and collaborate with those who share our belief, namely Muslims". The comparison could be done between a Muslim A relying on his/her brothers and sisters (Muslims), and a Muslim B relying on Jews and Christian. A is obeying God while B is not. A takes his/her Creator as a Guardian when he/she obeys Him, B can't pretend taking God as a Protector because B relies on Jews and Christians who reject the last and final Messenger, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him).
John 16:2,3 - They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.[/b] And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.[/b]
In Islam, it is clear that Allah (God) is incomparable to anything besides Him: "there is nothing whatever like unto Him"[Glorious Qur'an 42:11]
1) I am absolutely sure and have no doubt about it,
2) Regarding the link you provided:
a) The issue of "abrogation" (Naskh) has already been discussed in this forum. If you are interested in knowing why there is Naskh in the Noble Qur'an, then please tell me so that I give a detailed answer (especially on "the prohibition of alcohol" and "the challenge to produce similar verses").
b) Satan can't be the author of some verses of the Noble Qur'an for two reasons:
- No one is cursed in the Glorious Qur'an more than Satan.
- The Holy Qur'an is a far superior Arabic literature containing superior knowledge that no creature can author. God, the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth, is the only One Who can reveal such extraordinary book.
I think we've had a fruitful discussion so far. I try my best to write logical and convincing but firm posts. It is my duty to use the brain and heart that your Creator (Allah) gave me, to present my religion to you.
1) I did not appreciate the use of the expression "nearly all the muslims...would agree that I was referring to sin". Do you really know how my brothers/sisters (Muslims) think?
2) If you follow the chain of our discussion, you will notice that my original statement (in page 41 of this thread) was "this inimaginably beautiful and complex universe is created and run by a God Who is so Perfect, and would not have a human, imperfect state". It is not the question of sin or fallen nature here, I rather refer to God being Perfect (in His Power, in His Ability, in His Majesty...) and I said that the human state is an imperfect one, because humans are weak (compared to God), needy (while God does not need anyone)...
So in other words, why would God have to appear in a human, imperfect state?
But, while in Holy Qur'an is described the belief of the Christians in detail, in the Bible there is no reference to the specific belief of Muslims. I think it is important to know about Islam (just out of curiosity) because it a religion that plays a major role in today's world. One may wonder, what makes people revert to Islam despite the extraordinarily distorted image of it in the media?
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (John 14:6; Galatians 1:8)
Yes, I perfectly see your point.
On the other hand, even if I fail to convince you that the Holy Qur'an is the truth, I will have achieved two things:
1) I will have done my duty in conveying God's message. After the death of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), every Muslim is responsible, depending on his/her position, to convey God's message as best as possible.
2) God prepared a big reward in the Hereafter for those who call others to Islam even if they don't succeed.
I agree with you. But, what I am talking about is the Arabic text (which is still present today). As you know, the Holy Qur'an was revealed in Arabic: "We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an, in order that ye may learn wisdom."[Glorious Qur'an 12:2]
As I said before, you can refer to my discussions with Steve in this same thread (on pages 26 and 28 for example) on the integrity of Holy Qur'an Manuscript.
Does it mean that priests are not obliged "not to marry and therefore have son"? If it is the case, why do they choose "not to marry and therefore have son"?
In Islam, this unnatural practice is forbidden: "We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him (Jesus) Compassion and Mercy. But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them"[Glorious Qur'an 57:27]
Why does Christianity prevent priests from their natural desires (marriage, having children), .....
do you believe that I can convince you that Jesus is both the Son of God and the Saviour of the World? And if not, since you by your very words stated that it is not possible, should I continue? and If I don't does this mean that I failed to love you? And if I continue in attempting to open your heart and your mind til the very end, I would be at the same time neglecting thousands of others who are willing to hear the precious message of the Gospel while wasting my time discussing the truth with someone who has hardened their heart to it. Which would true love? Genuine loves action would be to leave you to your free-will and seek to bring thousands of souls to salvation through evnagelism (those who are willing to listen with an open heart). If you still don't see my point, then there is no point discussing this issue with you, siince discernment can point to factors on whether parties are willing to accept it.
Does this however give "some" muslims the right to "kill" Christians since they don't share their belief?
Does the media lie when it shows graphic footages of muslims decaptitating Christians?
Do you know how many Christians were martyred (beheaded) by muslims over the past few years alone?
and does this convince Christians the Islam is the truth?
however I don't believe that the God of the bible is the God of the Quran.
Have you ever studied Criminology? And do you know that the Devil is the "Father of all lies". Just because the Quran calls satan "the most cursed" doesn't mean that satan himself threw that verse in to throw the readers off guard. If satan himself wrote that, then apparently it would seem that he wouldn't call himself the most cursed, correct? That is the perfect example of deception, do you also know that satan used this same method on Eve in the Garden of Eden? Example: [A.] Satan is indeed the most cursed (truth), Satan can also be responsible for integrating that passage into the quran and claimed it was from (GOD)(false). [B.] Satan told Eve that eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil , her eyes shall be opened, and she shall know good and evil (truth). Satan also told Eve that in the day she eat of the tree, she shall not surely die "spiritual death" (false). Truth mingled with falsehood equals deception! This is why Jesus sends the"Spirit of Truth" to indwell all believers and to lead them away from deception and into absolute truth which will set us free.
Why would God need you or me to speak on behalf of Him since He is all-powerful and perfect
why couldn't God just reconcile man altogether and grant them all access to paradise since He is all-powerful?
It appears you don't understand the beauty of perfect submission
God cannot be in the presence of Sin since He is absolutely Holy, so sending His Son in the likeness of human beings is the only way to reconcile man to God
...Arabic or non-arabic, this doesn't change the fact that no human is infallible in translating texts. What is funny is that my last name is only 2 letters and it is misspelled 75% of the time, especially by those who either speak english in the correct grammar or by english teachers themselves back in my ancient days. So your response doesn't validate the authenticity of the Quran at all.
Once again, this doesn't deny the fallibility of human beings who are subject to error.
If you still don't see my point, then there is no point discussing this issue with you, siince discernment can point to factors on whether parties are willing to accept it.
however there is no point in continuing when every point of truth is considered untrue to others.
while wasting my time discussing the truth with someone who has hardened their heart to it.
There is no wisdom whatsoever in a grown man marrying and raping a child. None. You, nor anyone else can justify it as such.
In the US, we call that rape, paeodophilia, and put people in jail for it.
Jesus Christ was, is, and always will be the Son of the Living God. He died on the cross to save the entire world from its sins.
Shall I then seek you out and sit you down and talk to you until you do? No. You are offered the truth. If you do not accept the truth, then that is on you. I plant the seed, you allow the seed to take root, and the Lord makes it grow.
And that Muslim that was telling me and others about killing infidels seemed to be quoting the Qu'ran in almost every other sentence.
I won't be asking you anymore questions.
But, I have learned enough to know that Allah is not God. He may be your god, but he is not the one true God.
On my part, I consider that I am not wasting my time with you, since I am discussing the truth of Islam with an evangelist. God says: "And nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant."[Glorious Qur'an 5:82]
At the same time, I call many others to the truth. In Islam, we consider that God (Allah) only knows which heart is hardened and which is open.
Would you mind giving specific examples so that I can answer you conveniently?
What I am absolutely sure of, is that hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslims were martyred over the past years, and that tens of thousands of Muslims were captured, jailed and tortured mainly by Christian countries.
It is the "sword of intellect" which convinces many Christians Islam is the truth. You said it is a "great apostasy before the coming of Christ", it is your belief and I respect it (although I believe it is not true).
No one is forcing Christians in Europe, North America and elsewhere to revert to Islam. They are coming to Islam by their own will.
On my part, I will follow the commandment of your Creator (Allah) who orders Muslims, when discussing with Christians or Jews, to say: "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."[Glorious Qur'an 29:46]
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. (John 10:7,9)
Some Christians say that the Holy Qur'an is satan's handiwork. In reply to a similar allegation put forward by the pagans of Makkah, the following verses were revealed:
"That this is indeed
A Qur'an most honourable,
In a Book well-guarded,
Which none shall touch
But those who are clean:"
[Glorious Qur'an 56:77-79]
Kitabim Maknoon means a book well guarded or a protected book, referring to Lauh-e-Mahfooz in the heaven, which none shall touch except the Mutahhareen (those who do not have any uncleanliness or impurity or evil like sin). This refers to the angels. Satan is absolutely prohibited.
Now if you say that even this verse is also from satan, then you are giving him more intelligence than he really has. No my friend, compared to Almighty God, Satan is insignificant, and Allah (God) is far more intelligent. He knows satan's evil intentions and hence no wonder that He has given the reader of the Holy Qur'an several proofs to show that it is God's word, and not satan's word.
- Satan can't write the Noble Qur'an, since it is a superior knowledge that no one except God can reveal.
- If satan could do that, he has no interest in writing verses against himself: Even the Bible says:
"And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that
kingdom cannot stand."
"And if a house be divided against itself,
that house cannot stand."
"And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end."
[Mark 3:24-26]
God uplifted human beings and gave them the responsibility to run the world in His way and to call each other to His truth: "We did indeed offer the Trust to the Heavens and the Earth and the Mountains; but they refused to undertake it, being afraid thereof: but man undertook it"[Glorious Qur'an33:73]
and also: "Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth.""[Glorious Qur'an 2:30]
Your Creator says: "Do not the Believers know, that, had Allah (so) willed, He could have guided all mankind (to the right)? "[Glorious Qur'an 13:31]
Do you know what Islam means in Arabic? it means "Submission". As a Muslim, by definition, I am in complete and perfect submission to my Lord.
But God the Son is absolutely Holy and cannot be in the presence of sin, how can he then take the likeness of human beings?
Whenever the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) received a revelation, he would first memorize it himself and later declare the revelation and instruct his Companions (who are the most righteous and honest people after the prophets) who would also memorize it. The Prophet would immediately ask the scribes to write down the revelation he had received, and he would reconfirm and recheck it himself. In this way, the complete Qur'an was written down under the personal supervision of the prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).
The complete Qur'an, along with the correct sequence of the verses, was present during the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). The verses however, were written on separate pieces, scrapes of leather, thin flat stones, leaflets, palm branches, shoulder blades, etc. After the demise of the prophet, Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him), the first caliph of Islam and the most righteous of the Companions, ordered that the Qur'an be copied from the various different materials on to a common material and place, which was in the shape of sheets. These were tied with strings so that nothing of the compilation was lost.
The third Caliph of Islam, Uthman (may Allah be pleased with him) borrowed the original manuscript of the Qur'an, which was authorized by the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), from Hafsa (may Allah be pleased with her), the Prophet's wife. Uthman (may Allah be pleased with him) ordered four Companions who were among the scribes who wrote the Qur'an when the Prophet dictated it, led by Zaid bin Thabit (may Allah be pleased with him) to rewrite the script in several perfect copies. These were sent by Uthman (may Allah be pleased with him) to the main centres of Muslims.
If you want, I can give you detailed links to articles that prove and validate authenticity of the Holy Qur'an.
And since we discuss the matter of authenticity, I have another misconception about the Bible:
God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine?
(a) Seven (2 Samuel 24:13)
(b) Three (1 Chronicles 21:12)
On the contrary of those three statements, I look forward to continuing our discussion.
The US law is a man-made one, not revealed by God. Even your Christian friend ??????? said that the US is "an apostate Nation and an example of what false Christianity is founded on".
All Praise be to God (Allah in Arabic), thousands of people in the US revert to Islam every year, and follow the footsteps of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him).
appreciate your efforts in trying to "guide" me. However, I believe and am absolutely sure that "It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him![Glorious Qur'an 19:35]. I also believe that my Creator and your Creator is One, Unique and Has no partners ruling the Heavens and the Earth.
Would you mind specifying which verses the brother was referring to? Any case, you can refer to a previous post of mine and that of J_B about the definition of infidels.
If you change your viewpoint and have any question, problem, remark... about Islam, I would be glad to try my best to answer it for you.
My God is the One who Created the Heavens and the Earth, who made the beautiful Universe, the One who Created Adam and Eve. I worship the God of Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joseph, Jesus, Muhammad (peace be upon them all). I worship your Creator. Allah is the Arabic word for my God. Do you have a different God?
Do you actually think you can convince me of turning to the Islamic faith? In all honesty, I wouldn't renounce my faith even if it costed me my life!
I have actually missed valuable discussions with men and women who are "willing" to hear the precious message of the Gospel
men and women who are humble enough to admit that they are no better than anyone else
Not self-righteous men and women who declare to God and men that they deserve to enter heaven because they feel as if they lived a good enough life, seems arrogant and what many would call self-righteous, the religious leaders in Jesus' day were guilty of the same, they were blinded to their legalistic pride and their own meritorious deeds.
Now you may deny that Islam denies that killing non-Muslim civilians and Christians is prohibited in Islam, however not only is there proof that Islam is violent (CAUTION: STRONG VIOLENT CONTENT)http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/video/stoning_video_100kbps.wmv , but that muslims worldwide are known for killing and persecuting Christians http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-kills-christians-news.htm
You not believing its true comes as no surprise (no offense), since you hold firmly to your belief. However the scriptures state, the "SPIRIT SPEAKS EXPRESSLY", or explicitly that false professors and false converts will apostasize towards Islam and other religious beliefs, departing from the truth (in the last days). The scriptures doesn't use "sword of intellect", it describes "many" being deceived by "seducing spirits" and "doctrines of demons", "false prophets", angels masquerading as "angels of light", and satans ministers masquerading as "ministers of righteousness".
Allah is not my creator, and I find it somewhat forceful that you constantly call Allah my creator. You may say that Allah simply means God, but the God you worship is not the God I worship. Thats like me calling Jesus your Master and Creator. And once again, that is your belief which you cling to so tightly, you cannot prove that those words from the Quran are in fact from God, I on the other hand can prove that the words of the Bible are from God, seems somewhat arrogant at first, however if you would be willing to experiment then you will "see" for yourself that the way of absolute truth will open the door to your heart.
hmmm.....Why are you quoting the Bible since you question its authenticity?
You may feel as if satan would be casting himself out, but if the Quran is a master handiwork of the devil, is he really casting himself out? Do you know how ancient the serpent is? the bible calls him the "serpent of old" and he as been around for ages and has extensive knowledge in worldly affairs, this would include, literature, history, science and others areas of expertise which would increase his deception.
So to say that he is incapbale of conjuring up such words in the Quran is underestimating him, it is not giving credit to satan, but rather how many underestimate his deception.
BTW, since you quoted from the words of Jesus found in scriptures, do you accept it as truth? and if so, do you also accept the statement that Jesus made when He said that He is the only way to God? And if not, wouldn't this be nitpicking which portions of the bible you consider to be true? Just a thought to ponder on...
hmmm......but according to you God is ALL-POWERFUL, He doesn't need our help or the help of man, wasn't that your point in your previous post?
And? submission and perfect submission are not the same. Is fasting and complete fasting the same? If you understood perfect submission and how it is exalted in the end, then perhaps you would have understood why Jesus submitted to His Father, and look past what you call His "Imperfections".
t doesn't matter how you try and authenticate the validity of the Quran, it all boils down to the fact that the Quran was translated by human beings. Regardless of whether it was tied with strings so that nothing of the compilation was lost does not dismiss the FACT that the orignal copies were written on scrapes of leather, thin flat stones, leaflets, palm branches and what not, leaving room for copyists errors, do you see my point?
OK, now lets see this so-called error you presented. Go to the source which is still available, The original manuscripts read 3 years since 3 years are found in the LXX Septuagint. Now you may argue that the Septuagint may be a copyists error, however the same can be said about the Quran in terms of the original manuscripts. You can look for minute errors dealing with "numbers" in the bible but you are wasting your time.
Since the number you mentioned from the bible concerning copyists error has absolutely NOTHING to to with the major theme found throughout the scriptures. That is Jesus Christ is the only way to be reconciled to God, and without our reliance upon Him as our Saviour, we remain dead in our tresspasses and the wages of sin is death. Because of His unfathomable love, God sent His only Son into this fallen world to pay the ultimate penalty for us, and in order for mankind to realize their dependence upon Him, and receive Eternal Life and a personal relationship with Him.
Then I suppose there is a probability that I am able to convince you to turn to the Christian faith.
1. What does a man remaining faithful to his wife (as he should) while he is married have anything to do with him then marrying a six year old child and raping (yes, I am sorry, but it is rape) that child at the age of nine? A nine year old female has not gone through puberty. A nine year old child is just that, a nine year old child. That is called pedophilia in this country and is punishable by law. And, I highly doubt you will find many that disagree it was rape.
2. Yes, I realize that in Biblical times women married at YOUNGER ages. However, I don't believe that included SIX YEAR OLD CHILDREN. Do you?
3. Women in Arabia reach puberty at an earlier age than woman anywhere else on earth? Can you provide some proof of this?
But, do you really believe that God would ask a prophet to do such a thing in God's name?
Yes, it is a man made law. It was made because the act of pedophelia is wrong! The Bible tells us to follow man's laws unless they are in direct conflict with God's law. This law is not in conflict with God's law.
Muslim1. Personally, I would never follow anyone that would condone the rape of a child.
You think you have the right to decide what is befitting to God or not.
I believe God tells us what is befitting to us and not the other way around. He created us. We did not create Him.
If we went on the premise that it is man's right to decide what is befitting to God or not, hmmmm, could make excuses for anything then, couldn't we?
I wish I could. But, it was a long speech and I was pretty shocked by it and didn't write any of it down. The point is, he was preaching it and everyone was agreeing with it. Well, all the Muslims anyway.
I appreciate your willingness to answer me. However, at this point, I have to tell you that my motives will be to show you in the Bible where I believe you are wrong and I will let God's word stand without commenatary from me, after this posting.
If this were true, then you would also have included: I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and died on the cross to save the world from our sins. That is what the Bible says, so no Muslim1, we do not worship the same God.
Cor 4:3,4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
