truthfinder3
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Nov, 2005 08:41 am
I understand, I will be more careful in my grammar usage next time.

God Bless!
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Nov, 2005 08:44 am
hey no need to be more careful...compared with a lot of people mine included, your grammar is pretty near perfect. What do you understand by transubstantiation?
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Nov, 2005 01:55 pm
I have a question. If it has been asked and answered in this thread previously, I didn't catch it.

I would like to know if itis true the Qu'ran says to kill the infidels? If this is true, can someone tell me who the infidels are?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Nov, 2005 02:24 pm
Well I shouldnt answer this but a very simple google search turned up
................................................................
KORAN commands to kill infidels:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

.................................................................

I leave it to Muslim1 to explain who exactly are the infidels, and whether this text was ever supposed to be taken literally.
0 Replies
 
truthfinder3
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Nov, 2005 02:29 pm
Hi There!

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
hey no need to be more careful...compared with a lot of people mine included, your grammar is pretty near perfect. What do you understand by transubstantiation?


Are you referring to the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation?

Transubstantiation is a heretical teaching that is not found in the scriptures. The RCC (Roman Catholic Church) teaches that the wafer and wine "literallY" become the body and blood of Christ. They often quote this verse in scripture to substantiate their false doctrine:

Quote:
Matthew 26:26 - And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.


Any scientist can tell us that if that bread were to be examined in the lab, the substance does not scientifically change. Furthermore, Jesus also said that "I am the light of the world."(John 9:5), and that His followers are "the salt of the earth"(Matt. 5:13). The words, light, salt and body are figurative in context and have spiritual connotations, surely Christians are used to flavour food. Eating "blood" is forbidden both in the Old and New Testament (Lev. 17:11; Acts 15:20) and is a violation of God commandments, the act of eating blood is carried over to the New Testament.

Quote:
John 6:53 - Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


The flesh and blood here is pointing to the crucifixion of Christ and the source of life not partaking in a cannabalistic ritual. Satan (the father of all lies) is often known for taking scriptures "out of context" and conforming to suit his own doctrine and to deceive many, even the Church into apostasy.

God Bless!
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Nov, 2005 03:05 pm
Steve,

Thank you. I was pretty sure I knew the answer, but I wanted some affirmation.

I literally heard a Muslim (in a Christian chatroom BTW) giving this oration(?) about killing the infidels in Los Angeles, and Sydney, Australia, and slitting all the infidels throats!

I was to say the least, shocked.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Nov, 2005 09:44 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
I have a question. If it has been asked and answered in this thread previously, I didn't catch it.

I would like to know if itis true the Qu'ran says to kill the infidels? If this is true, can someone tell me who the infidels are?


MA, I hope Muslim1 answers your question but I found a couple interesting sources to consider. The first describes Kafir as one who does not believe,

Quote:
Kafir (Arabic: كافر kāfir; plural كفّار kuffār) is an Arabic word meaning "disbeliever", "denier" or "concealer." The Turkish form is Gavur. In a religious context it generally means a person who is not of the People of the book, however it is often used to mean "person who disbelieves in Islam" or "infidel" [1]. The noun kufr means "not believing in God" or "blasphemy, atheism." In Fiqh, the term amounts to the equivalent of Christian excommunication. The verb, "to declare someone a kafir" is takfir. For example, the novelist Salman Rushdie was declared a kafir in the Fatwa of Ayatollah Khomeini.


According to some scholars in Islam, the correct use of the word kafir in Islamic theology does not include either Christians, Samaritans, Jews, and all "Sabians"Citation needed who are covered by the term Ahl-al-Kitab, or "People of the Book," because they are considered recipients of divine revelation from Allah. However, other scholars, such as those backing militant Islamists, often do not make the distinction in their rhetoric and do often use it to include these religious communities, or any enemy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir


Looking up Kafir then found this,

Quote:
Question: Who is a Kafir? How can a Christian be a Kafir and still be from among the People of the book?
Answer: A person becomes a Kafir when he denies the truth in spite of being convinced that it is the truth. Since it is humanly impossible for a person to determine whether some person is denying the truth or not, it is only on the basis of information provided by the Almighty that a person can be called a Kafir. In the times of His Rusul, He chose to impart this information to his Rusul through Wahi; however, after the departure of the last Rasul Muhammad (sws), people who have knowingly denied the truth cannot be pinpointed since the institution of Wahi has been terminated. No Muslim preacher is in a position to reveal the truth in a manner a Rasul is able to, nor can he ascertain who among his addressees is guilty of knowingly denying the truth. After the Prophet (sws), only on the Day of Judgement will it now be known whether a particular person is a Kafir or not.
It is evident from this explanation that the Christians and Jews and followers of other religions in times after the Prophet (sws) are not Kafirs; the right name for them is non-Muslims. As far as Christians are concerned, it is to be noted that they are basically followers of monotheism. They never admit to polytheism, though they are involved in it. A person becomes a polytheist when he openly admits that he is a polytheist, even though he may be practising polytheism in some form; the reason is that a person might be doing something wrong without realizing what he is doing; Christians, whether of today or from the period of Jesus (sws), have never admitted to polytheism. Trinity to them is in accordance with monotheism. Of course, we do not agree with them, but unless they realize it, we can only say that in spite of claiming to be monotheists they are involved in polytheism. Their case is the case of a Muslim who goes to the grave of a saint to ask him to grant a wish; we shall not call such a Muslim a polytheist; we shall tell him that what he is doing is something against monotheism to which he himself strongly claims adherence. Similarly, we shall not call Christians polytheists, but we will keep telling them that what they are doing is not in accordance with monotheism.
It is precisely for this reason that the Qur'an never referred to the People of the Book as polytheists though they subscribed to certain blatant forms of polytheism. The Qur'an only called the Ismaelites as polytheists because they admittedly subscribed and testified to the creed of polytheism. They strongly advocated that polytheism was the very religion the Almighty had revealed and claimed that they were the strong adherents to this religion.

http://www.renaissance.com.pk/octq22y1.html


It would appear from Steve's post that the call to kill infidels can be found in the Qu'ran but the call to kill all non-Muslims is not. Just as some Fundamentalist Christians call for extreme interpretations of the bible, so do militant Imams call for extreme interpretations of the Qu'ran. To equate that interpretation to all Muslims would be on par with saying Pat Robertson and his ilk are speaking for all of Christianity.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Nov, 2005 09:46 pm
Thanx J_B, I appreciate that.

Gungasnake, you started this thread to answer questions about Islam. Is there a reason you haven't addressed mine?
0 Replies
 
raheel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 07:02 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161


is there anything wrong with this? no



Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191


it is clear that this is directed to oppressed people in a certain situation
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 07:23 am
raheel wrote:
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161


is there anything wrong with this? no



Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191


it is clear that this is directed to oppressed people in a certain situation


Raheel, whether you justify or condemn the words above, one thing is clear I DID NOT WRITE THEM. They are direct quotes from the Koran, and so you should know better than to attribute them to me.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 12:17 pm
Raheel,

Perhaps you can answer my question, I stil have not gotten a clear cut answer and would really appreciate one. I had asked a question of gungasnake earlier in this thread thread. I submitted a question to gungasnake, and though it has been answered by others, it has not been answered by gungasnake. Perhaps you can help me?

I was told (along with many others from a practicing Muslim) that the Qu'ran says to kill all the infidels. He also mentioned slitting the throats of the infidels.

So, raheel, can you please explain to me who the infidels are and why the threats against them?
0 Replies
 
muslim1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 04:20 pm
Thank you ??????? for your posts,


You told englishmajor that:
??????? wrote:
That just gives me the relief of not having to waste my time trying to convince you.

If you were 100% convinced of you belief as the absolute truth, you would have tried to convince the others until the end.
As Muslims, we will try to present Islam to others as best we can until we die.


??????? wrote:
Actually "all" Christians apply this. Those who do not apply this are not Christians, since the word Christian is defined as someone who follows Christ and His teachings.

This creates a problem: If a person applies 99% of Christ teachings and don't apply 1%, is he an apostate (according to you)?
If those who don't love their enemies are apostates, the number of "true Christians" would be very small indeed.


??????? wrote:
And while we are on the subject of loving our neighbours, care to explain why the Quran displays prejudice towards Christians and Jews, and even slanders Christians?

Chapter 5, verse 51 of the Quran wrote:


O, you who believe [in the message of Muhammad], do not take Jews and Christians as friends. They are friends to one another, and the one among you who turns to them is of them.

Truly, God does not guide wrongdoing folk.


Now you may argue that "friends" (awliya) refers to protectors or guardians, however that is still a false accusation


First, I would advise you to use the following translation of the Glorious Qur'an: Holy Qur'an
Secondly, our Guardian and Protector is our Creator, we rely on him. We also rely and collaborate with those who share our belief, namely Muslims. If a Muslim relies on a non-muslim, then he's disobeying God.


??????? wrote:
however that is still a false accusation. Since Christians who risk life and limb to protect sinners and even muslims out of love for them completely disproves that verse in the Quran. I have muslim friends, and I would risk my life for them if I had to.

1) The verse from the Holy Qur'an you quoted, is a call far the believers not to take Jews or Christians their awliya, now if you pretend you can risk your life for Muslims, and a Muslim takes you as "walii" (protector), then he's disobeying the commandment of his Creator, and the verse is valid.
2) With all my due respect, if you, together with all Christians, together will all non-muslims of the world try to find an error in the Glorious Qur'an, you'll waste your time and won't find any.


??????? wrote:
Actually the Creator you claim as mines is not what I accept, since I don't believe that the God of the Quran is the same God as the God of the Bible.

Since I have absolutely no doubt that Allah (God) created you, I'll without any hesitation still call Him "your Creator".


??????? wrote:
What is interesting is the similarities between the Quran and Mormonism, both claim to have received another doctrine from an "angel" who claims to be a servant of God.

Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) received the revelation from God almighty throught the angel Gabriel (peace be upon him), who was also present in the previous revelations.
while Christians do not believe in the best of mankind [Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him)], Muslims believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is one of the best Messengers and Prophets of God almighty.


??????? wrote:
An imperfect state? I challenge you to show me the imperfections of Jesus!

I accept the challenge: when Jesus was in a human state, wasn't he in need of oxygen? isn't this an imperfection? wasn't he in need of food? isn't this an imperfection? didn't he (as Christians pretend) die on the cross? isn't this an imperfection?...


??????? wrote:
Then please do the same for the bible, because you have demonstrated thus far that you lack understanding when it comes to interpreting certain passages in context.

I thank you for your advise. But, the details of the Christian belief are explained in the Holy Qur'an, especially in the Chapters of "The Family of 'Imran (ch3)", "The Table(ch5)" and "Mary(ch19)".


??????? wrote:
If you read the entire bible, you would not have asked that question. Truth is established and understood when taken as a whole, not in bits and pieces.

While you say this, I personally welcome any question from your part on Islam. It is my duty to present what I believe in.


??????? wrote:
Then wouldn't it be wise to try and seek the knowledge of scriptures without being bias to it? I have ascertained from your previous posts that you haven't studied the scriptures quite well. Would you consider in all honesty reading just the New Testament alone and doing an in-depth study on it, and applying it to your life and see if any positive results will manifest? Anyone can read the scriptures and will still lack understanding because it is not applied to their life. Jesus said that the "Spirit of Truth" will reveal the absolute truth to you, and that this spirit of truth will reside within you. However this is not done unless one believes that Jesus died for their sins and that He is LORD. In other words, according to the scriptures, a person will continue to strive against the truth contained in scriptures and deny its validity because the "Spirit of Truth" does not abide in them because they reject the Son of God.

When I compare the nature of people who convert from Islam to Christianity with those who revert from Christianity to Islam, I can see the following:
1) From Islam to Christianity: people with very little knowledge and sometimes very poor people who are (excuse-me) paid to leave their religion. Generally, the number of people who quit Islam to Christianity is a small one.
2) From Christianity to Islam : important personalities, people of knowledge, scholars, missionaries... and the number of people who quit Christianity to Islam is a huge one.
This really discourages me of applying your advice (I thank you btw for issuing it). I rather prefer spending my precious time calling my brothers/sisters in humanity to the absolute truth, which is Islam.


??????? wrote:
The Quran hasn't changed one bit? Care to explain this?

http://www.submission.org/tampering.html

You can refer, in this same thread, to my discussions with Steve on the integrity of the Glorious Qur'an manuscript.
Regarding your link, the fact that the last verses of Surah Tawbah were revealed in Makkah is not a problem, since the order of the Holy Qur'an was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) by God. For example: the first revealed chapter in Makkah (which is Surah Alak), is the chapter 96 of the Holy Qur'an. The order of the chapters was commanded by Allah.
Secondly, the mathematical operations mentioned in your link do not have anything to do with the validity of the Holy Qur'an which is a book of guidance to all the humanity.


??????? wrote:

Thats completely absurd, I can ask you the same question. How do you know that human beings who are capable of "error" have infallibly translated the Quran from its original manuscript correctly? Not trying to sound rude, but every muslim thus far has posed the same question to deny that Jesus is the Son of God, and that is what if the bible has copyists errors? The first translation of the Hebrew Old Testament into another language was called the Septuagint, Seventy scholars were brought to Alexandria, Egypt, to create this Greek translation. The work began around 280 B.C and was completed about 100 years later. This work is significant to us because it proves the Old Testament was canonized by this time. It is also important because its agreement with the original Hebrew text shows the translators took great care to create an accurate work. I can give you an entire history of how accurate the bible is and then ask you how certain are you in regards to the accuracy of the Quran, since men are not infallible?

My objective was not to hurt your feelings, but you wrote with your own keyboard that the story of Ahaziah was "the result of a copyists error". So do you have any proof that the "major doctrines" of Christianity also are not? That's simply my question.
Concerning the Holy Qur'an, as I said before, we already discussed on this thread the authenticity and integrity of the Glorious Qur'an. Your Creator says:"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). "[Glorious Qur'an 15:9]


??????? wrote:
Once again, that is your belief and there are many others who claim their belief is true, does this make it any truer? If a father tells his son that the stove is hot, can the son know for certain that the stove is indeed hot? Unless the scriptures are actually "applied" to the persons life, it won't ring any truer to an atheist or a satanist.

All Praise be to God, many people are reverting to Islam every day only throught reading the Glorious Qur'an, and for sure this will continue in the future.


??????? wrote:
so be it, but regardless of what people believe in, all will meet their maker. And I stand firm to what the scriptures state

On the Day of Judgement, our Creator will judge who is right and who is wrong.


??????? wrote:
Furthermore, I am willing to bet that God in His "foreknowledge" entrusted men capable of providing us with an accurate enough translation to live by and to save our souls from death.

I agree with you. God almighty sent Messengers and revealed books to guide humanity. And the last and final revelation was to Messenger Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), and whosoever follows him, will save herself/himself from Hell.


??????? wrote:
Its only when people willingly, deliberately, and biasedly look for a reasons to reject the authenticity of the scriptures that their hearts become hardened to its truth.

It is not the question of willingly, deliberately, and biasedly rejecting the Scriptures. We want the truth to prevail over falsehood: "And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish."" [Glorious Qur'an 17:81]
When you find that a book has many errors, then you have doubts that this particular book is 100% the word of God.


??????? wrote:
I noticed that you capitalized "NOT", doesn't that seem a tad bias? Perhaps I can tell you that I "believe" the Quran a big whopper and the greatest deception and most cunning and beguiling manipulative masterpiece the devil has ever accomplished, would you respect my opinion? Obviously not. If you believe that the Bible is not the truth, then it is obviously a lie and NOT of God, doesn't sound too respectable, does it?

My comment "it is NOT the truth" was on "Jesus son of God", not on the whole Bible. As I said before, the Bible may contain the word of God, but it also contains words of Prophets,
historians as well as many scientific errors and internal contradictions. Pray explain that one: How many fighting men were found in Israel? (1) Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9). Or (2) One million, one hundred thousand (1 Chronicles 21:5).
Secondly, you can criticize the Glorious Qur'an as you want, but remember that you will meet your Creator on the Day of Judgement, "The Day whereon neither wealth nor sons will avail, But only he (will prosper) that brings to Allah a sound heart;"[Glorious Qur'an 26:88-89]


??????? wrote:
Forgive me if I am being obtuse but I'm not sure what your trying to tell me and what the so-called argument is? Do you have something against priests not being allowed to marry, or having to have sons?

Why does Christianity prevent priests from their natural desires (marriage, having children), doesn't this go against the nature that God created in people? And also, why does Christianity prevent priests from marrying and having sons (because it maybe goes against their purity) and then attributes sons to God (who is the Most Pure and is far from any imperfection)?


And Allah knows best.
0 Replies
 
muslim1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 04:23 pm
Englishmajor,

Thank you for your important remarks on this thread.

englishmajor wrote:
I do not believe and will never believe that God died on the cross. Who was running the universe, then?

I agree with you. God almighty is running the universe in every moment, without interruption: "No slumber can seize Him nor sleep." [Glorious Qur'an 2:255]



englishmajor wrote:
(Moslems also accept Jesus).

Indeed. We -Muslims- consider Jesus (peace be upon him) as one of the mightiest Messengers of God. Jesus (peace be upon him) had a miraculous birth, he could heal those born blind, the lepers, and quicken the dead, by Allah's leave. Jesus (peace be upon him) is very praised in the Noble Qur'an, example: "Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah."[Glorious Qur'an 3:45]
But, Jesus (peace be upon him) is not God nor the son of God.
0 Replies
 
muslim1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 04:28 pm
Steve,

Thank you for your questions and remarks,

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
However the cloud that spelled out the name of Allah looked remarkably like a cloud to me. And the photograph of snow on a mountainside which also spelled out the name of Allah looked remarkably like snow on a mountainside. Are these people serious?

I know Arabic, and the the word "Allah" (in Arabic) is clearly spelled out.


Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Well I shouldnt answer this but a very simple google search turned up

It is always important to be careful when dealing with issues like religion and belief: Google is before all an engine, not a scholar. Google gives you all: what is good but also what is bad.

Now let's examine the verses you quoted from the Holy Qur'an (btw, I recommend this translation: The Holy Qur'an ):

Quote:
Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith 2:98

I completely agree with what raheel said. To explain more: Allah (God) uplifted mankind, and gave the humanity the choice to come to Him in obedience, He gave them infinite favours: "If ye would count up the favours of Allah, never would ye be able to number them" [Glorious Qur'an16:18]
Now, if after all this a man/woman chooses and insists in disobeying his/her Creator then he/she is clearly declaring himself/herself as an enemy to Allah.

Quote:
And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter;

"them" here refers to those who attack the land of Islam. Indeed, God says "and turn them out from where they have Turned you out" which is applicable in the case of an invader, an occupier.
Yes, when dealing with occupation, we have to be very severe. God orders us to kill and slay those who try to take our lands, to destroy our homes.

Quote:
martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

Here are two verses about Martyrs:
Think not of those who are slain in Allah.s way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord;
They rejoice in the bounty provided by Allah. And with regard to those left behind, who have not yet joined them (in their bliss), the (Martyrs) glory in the fact that on them is no fear, nor have they (cause to) grieve.
[Glorious Qur'an 3:169-170]
There is no doubt that the true Martyrs will enter Heaven. They will directly enter the highest parts of Paradise without any judgment. Why? because they have given the most precious thing they possess (their lives) for the sake of God.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 04:29 pm
But, Jesus (peace be upon him) is not God nor the son of God.

where did that come from, you or the Koran?
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 04:32 pm
1. Jesus Christ was and is the Son of the Living God and died on the Christ to save us from our sins.

2. Muhammed was not a true prophet. True prophets do not marry six year old girls and have sex with them when they are nine years old.

3. Jesus teaches us to love everyone, even our enemies. He does not say, "Do not be friends with Muslims because they do not believe." He says to love everyone.

And Muslim1, can you tell me you commit no sin? Everyone sins. No one follows anything to the letter 100% of the time. It is impossible to do so. So, if you do sin, Muslim1, should we therefore discount everything you say?

It seems that is what you are saying about following 99% of the time. Does that 1% make the other 99% not true?

And still, I have not received an answer to my question. Who are the infidels and why is Islam to kill them?
0 Replies
 
muslim1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 04:33 pm
Momma Angel,

Thank you for your very important question,
Momma Angel wrote:
I have a question. If it has been asked and answered in this thread previously, I didn't catch it.

I would like to know if itis true the Qu'ran says to kill the infidels? If this is true, can someone tell me who the infidels are?
practically implemented, he never ordered to kill a non-combattant infidel.
4) God says: "Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just."[Glorious Qur'an 60:9]
5) Throughout centuries, Jews and Christians (who are considered infidels, kaffir in Islam) lived peacefully in Islamic countries: Christians in Egypt, Lebanon and Jews in north Africa. They had only to pay a tax (Jizya) for not serving in the Islamic Army.

And Allah (God) knows best.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 04:38 pm
Sorry, your post came up right after mine so you are answering my question.

1. Please explain the crusades to me, then. This was Islam and Christianity at war.

2. Please explain to me why I heard with my own two ears, a devout Muslim say, "Allah commands us to kill the infidels of Los Angels, and Sydney, Australia. Allah commands us to slit the throats of the infidels."

3. Why do you deny that Jesus Christ is and was the Son of God? Can you give me reference for this belief?

Muslim1, I do not believe in your religion I am sure you know. But, I am willing to try to understand it more than I do now.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 05:28 pm
Momma Angel,

You may be interested in an earlier related discussion here.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=583135#583135
0 Replies
 
truthfinder3
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 09:16 pm
Welcome back muslim1!

muslim1 wrote:
If you were 100% convinced of you belief as the absolute truth, you would have tried to convince the others until the end.
As Muslims, we will try to present Islam to others as best we can until we die.


Thats a complete fallacy, and neither you nor anyone can question what I know to be the absolute truth. Furthermore I don't force my belief upon others, as an evangelist, one of the biggest mistakes is forcing your beliefs upon others. I obey what the scriptures instruct me to, and not what man tells me what I should do. Here are examples of when to cease from conversing with those who cross the line. Not only does the bible condemn debate, but that Jesus said:

Quote:
John 15:20 - Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.


Jesus also said:

Quote:
Matthew 10:14 - And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.


muslim1 wrote:
This creates a problem: If a person applies 99% of Christ teachings and don't apply 1%, is he an apostate (according to you)?
If those who don't love their enemies are apostates, the number of "true Christians" would be very small indeed.


With all due respect, your comments seem a tad ridiculous, I already been through this before with you on many of my previous posts. Whoever is born of God is led by the spirit and his new nature will dominate over their sinful and evil acts. Your twisting my words, if a person fails to love one person who is their enemy, this doesn't make them an apostate, unless you believe that one sin makes one an apostate. According to the scriptures it says that "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." I have been through the concept of habitual sin before many of times with you, please reread my posts. Jesus said that a tree is known by its "fruit", a person who fails to produce fruits and fails to love their enemies at all demonstrates that they have an unregenerate heart. Jesus warns us of false converts who bear figs of thistles, these men and women never learn to love their enemies.

muslim1 wrote:
First, I would advise you to use the following translation of the Glorious Qur'an: Holy Qur'an
Secondly, our Guardian and Protector is our Creator, we rely on him. We also rely and collaborate with those who share our belief, namely Muslims. If a Muslim relies on a non-muslim, then he's disobeying God.


So basically in context, according to you, Allah is saying not to take Jews and Christians as a godlike person, since our Guardian and Protector is God! That sounds contextually incorrect, why would Allah compare Himself to human beings?

muslim1 wrote:
1) The verse from the Holy Qur'an you quoted, is a call far the believers not to take Jews or Christians their awliya, now if you pretend you can risk your life for Muslims, and a Muslim takes you as "walii" (protector), then he's disobeying the commandment of his Creator, and the verse is valid.
2) With all my due respect, if you, together with all Christians, together will all non-muslims of the world try to find an error in the Glorious Qur'an, you'll waste your time and won't find any.


Don't be so sure about this, Quran from God???

It seems to me that you don't believe I would risk my life for a muslim, since you were sly in slipping in the word "PRETEND" into your remarks, hmmm......Ahh the awesome power of the divine love of God which indwells born-again believers.

muslim1 wrote:
Since I have absolutely no doubt that Allah (God) created you, I'll without any hesitation still call Him "your Creator".


Fine with me, I have absolutely no doubt that Christ (The word of God) created you and thus is your Creator. We can go back and forth and this, however this would be "debate" rather than a civil discussion.

muslim wrote:
Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) received the revelation from God almighty throught the angel Gabriel (peace be upon him), who was also present in the previous revelations.
while Christians do not believe in the best of mankind [Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him)], Muslims believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is one of the best Messengers and Prophets of God almighty.


Did God (Himself) or an angel introduce the the commandments to Moses? Did God or an angel decree the laws and dotrine found in the Old and New Testaments? Jesus is more than a prophet, He is the Son of God, the apostles expounded on the doctrines and decrees already established by God Himself. The bible warns of angels delivering "Other Gospels":

Quote:
Galatians 1:8 - But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.


muslim1 wrote:
I accept the challenge: when Jesus was in a human state, wasn't he in need of oxygen? isn't this an imperfection? wasn't he in need of food? isn't this an imperfection? didn't he (as Christians pretend) die on the cross? isn't this an imperfection?...


Once again, you are being ridiculous (perhaps not intentional). When I meant imperfection, nearly all the muslims and even Christians would agree that I was referring to sin and a fallen nature. And again with the word "PRETEND", I find that disrespectful.

muslim1 wrote:
I thank you for your advise. But, the details of the Christian belief are explained in the Holy Qur'an, especially in the Chapters of "The Family of 'Imran (ch3)", "The Table(ch5)" and "Mary(ch19)".


No offense, but that seems like a cop out. That would also mean that it wouldn't be necessary for me to study the Quran, since the bible tells me that "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue" (2 Peter 1:3), which means that the Bible alone is sufficient, not mormonisms extra-biblical teachings or the Quran. Your only argument would have to be that the Quran is the only truth, however that is feeble since anyone who stands firm in their belief can say the same in regards to their faith.

muslim1 wrote:
While you say this, I personally welcome any question from your part on Islam. It is my duty to present what I believe in.


OK! I'll bear with you a little longer....BTW, I believe that the Bible is the absolute truth and stands above the Quran, do you believe that I must try convining you to the end? and do you believe that even if I tried that you will change your belief? and if not, then why bother? Do you see my point now?

muslim1 wrote:
When I compare the nature of people who convert from Islam to Christianity with those who revert from Christianity to Islam, I can see the following:
1) From Islam to Christianity: people with very little knowledge and sometimes very poor people who are (excuse-me) paid to leave their religion. Generally, the number of people who quit Islam to Christianity is a small one.
2) From Christianity to Islam : important personalities, people of knowledge, scholars, missionaries... and the number of people who quit Christianity to Islam is a huge one.
This really discourages me of applying your advice (I thank you btw for issuing it). I rather prefer spending my precious time calling my brothers/sisters in humanity to the absolute truth, which is Islam.


Is it just me, or does that comment seem completely bias? I can personally say by experience that all those that I have come across that converted to Islam from Christianity were not only never "born-again", since the bible teaches that someone who is truly born-again cannot depart from the truth of the Gospel, but that they don't follow any other path to God. What is also interesting is that your comment of a large number of people who quit Christianity to Islam is foretold in the scriptures and a "sign" of the last days before the return of Christ to earth. The bible calls this the "Great Apostasy":

Quote:
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. (1 Timothy 4:1-3)


muslim1 wrote:
My objective was not to hurt your feelings, but you wrote with your own keyboard that the story of Ahaziah was "the result of a copyists error". So do you have any proof that the "major doctrines" of Christianity also are not? That's simply my question.
Concerning the Holy Qur'an, as I said before, we already discussed on this thread the authenticity and integrity of the Glorious Qur'an. Your Creator says:"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). "[Glorious Qur'an 15:9]


In all fairness, you have quoted a section of the Quran which says that the Quran is guarded against corruption. How do you know that this is not a manuscriptural or copyists error since men are not infallible? human beings are responsible for translating both the Quran and the Bible, and no human is infallible. Quoting and singling out a passage from the Quran doesn't validate is authenticity, because it says so? and because the person who says this describes Himself as God? The mormon book claims the same authenticity as the Quran and even states in their book that God Himself handed it down and there are no "errors". Should I believe this since that in the Quran and the Book of Mormon, God Himself assures this? I can also single out one passage in the bible to validate its authenticity as the only truth, does this make it any truer? If a person claims to be a prophet of God and tells you that you can walk on fire without being harmed, would you believe Him? It is only when you take your first step will you realize that you will be burned. The bible is meaningless and will always be the subject of ridicule until one applies its essentials and experiences for themselves. Also I don't have the time to give you a history lesson of the authenticity of the bible, but this link can provide a better explanation than I can:Authenticity of the Bible

muslim1 wrote:
On the Day of Judgement, our Creator will judge who is right and who is wrong.


Your absolutely right!

muslim1 wrote:
It is not the question of willingly, deliberately, and biasedly rejecting the Scriptures. We want the truth to prevail over falsehood: "And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish."" [Glorious Qur'an 17:81]
When you find that a book has many errors, then you have doubts that this particular book is 100% the word of God.


What "many errors"? Jesus said that He is "the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by Him.", thats an error? You cannot prove this to be an error, neither can you prove this passage to be an error:

Quote:
Acts 4:12 - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name (JESUS) under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


Quote:
My comment "it is NOT the truth" was on "Jesus son of God", not on the whole Bible. As I said before, the Bible may contain the word of God, but it also contains words of Prophets,
historians as well as many scientific errors and internal contradictions. Pray explain that one: How many fighting men were found in Israel? (1) Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9). Or (2) One million, one hundred thousand (1 Chronicles 21:5).
Secondly, you can criticize the Glorious Qur'an as you want, but remember that you will meet your Creator on the Day of Judgement, "The Day whereon neither wealth nor sons will avail, But only he (will prosper) that brings to Allah a sound heart;"[Glorious Qur'an 26:88-89]


hmmm.... You cannot disprove that Jesus DID NOT claim that He was the Son of God, the scriptures record Jesus claim as Deity and the Son of God, and your only argument is the "possiblity" of manuscriptural or copyists errors, which the Quran is also subject to, including "Surah 15:9", since you want to split hairs. hmmm....before you accuse me of criticizing the Quran, I suggest you take a long hard look at how many criticisms you have tossed at the scriptures. Take a look above, thats a perfect example. Chronicles 21:5 lists the census figure in Israel at 1,100,000, this is a round number which was arrived by adding the total of "regular army" commanders and the companies to the 800,000 of the general cencus. Likewise, the 500,000 men in Judah which seemingly is different in 1 Chronicles 32:5, which only lists 470,000. However, since 1 Chronicles 21:6 indicates that the census was incomplete because it did not include the tribes of Levi or Benjamin, the figure in Samuel is the accurate one. They are simply different counting procedures being considered by the two authors.

muslim1 wrote:
Why does Christianity prevent priests from their natural desires (marriage, having children), doesn't this go against the nature that God created in people? And also, why does Christianity prevent priests from marrying and having sons (because it maybe goes against their purity) and then attributes sons to God (who is the Most Pure and is far from any imperfection)?


Can you please who me where in the scriptures it says this?

Take Care for now and God Bless!
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