ISLAM Q&A

Is Allah portrayed as a violent God? God in the Bible certainly is.

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The God of the Bible is not a violent God, He is misunderstood by those who do not understand Divine Justice and the punishment of sins from those who are in rebellion against Him, especially His chosen people who have an intimate knowledge of Him. Mercy and Forgiveness is always granted to those who desire it, those who are chastised or punished are those who rebel against Him and reject His mercy and forgiveness.

Quote:

Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:7-9)

God Bless!

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??????? wrote:

I can just as well quote scriptures spoken from the mouth of Jesus Himself claiming that He is Gods one and only Son making Him God.

.

Please do so. All the references I have read are obtuse or speak about Jesus as God in the third person. I dont know any reference where Jesus himself claims to be the Son of God. It would have been regarded as the height of blasphemy for a Jew of those days to claim divinity. My understanding is that the issue of Christ man or God was settled by a show of hands at the council of Nicea in (I think) 325AD. However you are a better biblical scholar than me.

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??????? wrote:

I (have become) healed of broken ankles with torn ligaments immediately upon prayer through the "Name of Jesus" (I felt my ligaments re-attach itself from within)

This is pretty impressive. Especially if your doctor confirms it was a miracle.

Muslim1...Did Mohammed perform miracles? Do exhortations to Allah work in the same way that ???????? has shown prayer to Jesus can produce miracles?

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

Please do so. All the references I have read are obtuse or speak about Jesus as God in the third person. I dont know any reference where Jesus himself claims to be the Son of God. It would have been regarded as the height of blasphemy for a Jew of those days to claim divinity. My understanding is that the issue of Christ man or God was settled by a show of hands at the council of Nicea in (I think) 325AD. However you are a better biblical scholar than me.

I'm no bible scolar, but out of all the doctrines pertaining to Christianity, I have thoroughly studied the "Deity" of Christ and am absolutely certain that He Himself claimed to be God incarnate.

Quote:

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58)

Lord Jehovah is "I am who I am" (Exod.3:14). Jesus is "I am" (John 8:5)The response of the unbelieving Jews shows that they themselves understood Jesus to be claiming deity: they tried to stone him for blasphemy. In John 10:33 the Jews specifically explain why they had made attempts to stone Him: "for blasphemy;and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." In other words, even in John 8:58,59, they tried to stone Him for claiming to be God after He referred to Himself as "I am." In this immediate context the Jews are not asking Jesus who He is. Rather, they are questioning (HOW OLD) He is. Jesus had made the point that Abraham had seen His (Christ's) "day." They responded by saying, "You are not yet 50 years old, and have You seen Abraham?" That is, "Abraham lived 1800 years ago, and you are not even 50. So, how is it possible for Abraham to have seen your 'day'?" The question, then, involves age--Christ's age. How long Jesus has been around. In fact, Christ shows us this by starting his statement with the adverb "before": "before Abraham was born..." Again, Jesus here is talking about length of TIME. "Before Abraham was born, I AM." Before Abraham was born, Christ was existing and continues to exist (the very trait of God described in Exod. 3:14). It's also clear that Jesus claimed to be God as He accepted worship--and only God can be worshiped: check out all these instances where Jesus accepted worship--Matt.8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 20:20; 28:9; 28:17; John 9:38; Heb.1:6 (even the angels worship Him.) In fact, the Jews' response to this statement also shows that Jesus described Himself with a term of deity: they tried to stone Him to death for blasphemy (which would have been the case if Christ had been a mere human). John 10:30-31 specifically states this reason for them trying to stone Jesus.

1). Isaiah Chapter 8:13,14 refers to Jehovah as "a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence." I Pet.2:8 quotes this very verse, applying it to Jesus.

2). Isaiah Chapter 9:6 refers to the coming Christ as "mighty God" (el gibbor)--the same term (even without the Hebrew article) used of Jehovah in Isa.10:20,21.

3). Isaiah Chapter 40:3--"prepare the way of Jehovah"--is applied to Jesus Christ in Matt.3:3; Luke 1:76; and John 3:28.

God Bless!

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Seems there are many questions and remarks since I last visited the forum.

OK. Lets go...

Thank you ??????? for your replies,

??????? wrote:

But the God of Christianity tells us that we are to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us

And how many Christians apply this? Did not the 2 destructive world wars involve many Christian countries? Are not the Christian American governments who made (and make) attrocities in Hirochima, Nagazaki, Kandahar, Falloujah, Guantanamo, Abu Ghrib... ?

??????? wrote:

Why did Allah wait 6 centuries after the death of Christ and the spurt of Christianity to introduce the doctrine of the Quran to Muhammad? Does that sound logical?

First, your (and my) Creator answers you in the Holy Quran: "Allah knoweth best where (and how) to carry out His mission." [Glorious Qur'an 6:124]
Secondly, I do not discuss why Jesus (peace be upon him) came 2005 years ago (God forbid) - God knows best when and where to send Messengers -, but I discuss the "salvation through Jesus's blood" and why, If it is the only way to Heaven, did it came so late.
PS: You could argue that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) came later than Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him). We believe that Islam was the religion of all the prophets, beginning from Adam (peace be upon him), they were all were Muslims, and the only way to Paradise is Islam: "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). " [Glorious Qur'an 3:85]

??????? wrote:

your comment that He is far from being God is taken from your belief which you believe is true.

Not only from my belief but also from the logic which says that this inimaginably beautiful and complex universe is created and run by a God Who is so Perfect, and would not have a human, imperfect state.

??????? wrote:

those contradictions were handed down from a friend of mines who doesn't know too much of the Quran but debates with Muslims on another forum.

It is always important to study a religion and gather knowledge about it before trying to refute it.
I call upon your friend to read the Glorious Qur'an and study it in an impartial manner.

??????? wrote:

There are however a few passages which I can indeed quote which every muslim I have come across can not sufficiently present a logistical and exegetical refutation

If a brother/sister is new to Islam and is therefore unable to refute an allegation, this does not mean the allegation is true. God (Allah in Arabic) orders us to seek knowledge. Indeed, the first revealed word (in chronological order of revelation) was: "Read" [Glorious Qur'an 96:1]

??????? wrote:

My goal is to examine the differences between your belief and mines and why they are contrary (ESPECIALLY DOCTRINE) to each other when supposedly the God of Islam is supposedly the God of Christianity, which BTW I disagree.

I appreciate your frankness here. We - Muslims - worship the God who created the Heavens and the Earth, the God who is the Sustainer of the whole universe, the God of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad... the God who is most Gracious, most Merciful, most Powerful, the God who Has dominance over all things, the God who Has the most perfect of attributes. I don't think Christians or Jews would worship another god...
If the word Allah poses problem, then many Lebanese and Egyptian Christians call God Allah. As I said in many occasions, Allah is the Arabic word for God.

??????? wrote:

hmmm..., if you look at my refutations from an unbiased viewpoint you will agree that I am correct and the bible has not contradictions, but a lack of scriptural understanding will lead to this.

Do not forget that we agreed on a previous post that the use of BOTH the brain and heart will lead us to the truth. Didn't we?

??????? wrote:

The fact remains that a copyist error does not nullify the inspiration or the authority of Scripture. You must keep consider that God Himself inspired the originals, which were without error.

I completely agree here. In Islam, we believe that God revealed the originals which were without error, by name: The Taurah (to Moses peace be upon him), The Zaboor (to David peace be upon him), The Injeel (to Jesus peace be upon him). But, due to copyist errors and other reasons, the Bible we have today is, with all due respect, not exactly the one revealed by God.

??????? wrote:

However, they in no way affect any "doctrinal" areas.

And here is the vital point! Do you have any proof that "The Trinity", "Jesus is son of God", "Jesus is God", "Salvation is only throught Jesus" are not simply copyist errors, just like Ahaziah story?

??????? wrote:

Interesting, the bible never uses such words, it lets the believer exalt God and not the book. The bible can be called the Holy Bible or just plain "bible", and I don't believe it makes a bit of a difference to the God of Christianity if the book is given an exalted name.

In Islam, we worship God alone. Now, the Glorious Qur'an is so important because it was, is and will be a guide to many people towards the truth.

??????? wrote:

Since you consider the Quran the "Word of God", do you take offense that the Bible calls Jesus the "Word of God"?

First, the Glorious Qur'an is the book revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) by God almighty.
Secondly, maybe you'll be surprised, but the Glorious Qur'an also calls Jesus (peace be upon him) a "Word of God". In fact: "Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah."[Glorious Qur'an 3:45]
Jesus (peace be upon him) is called "Word of God" because God created him with a single word: Be! and he was.

??????? wrote:

And I also respect yours and am not trying to change it because it is apparent that you stand firm in your belief.

I indeed stand very firm in my belief, not due to an intelligence or strength from my part (God forbid), but thanks to a guidance from my Creator. All Praise be to God alone.

??????? wrote:

I on the other hand have ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT that Jesus died for my sins

Sure? Do not the copyist errors put doubts on the integrity of the Bible (which is the heart of the Christian belief)? God almighty does not make any error...

??????? wrote:

That my friend is your opinion and nothing more.

No, more than that. It is (and will be) the opinion of billions (including some non-muslims). It is a fact, my friend.

??????? wrote:

Then why question if God Almighty can protect believers from "deadly poision" and defy science?

First, it is in the definition of believers that we disagree, not in the fact that God Has the ability to do everything.
Secondly, I have never come across or read about a Christian who passed (unintentionally) the "deadly poison" test and proved that.

??????? wrote:

So as to whether I truly believe what I believe to be the truth, I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is the only way to receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

That is your belief and the one of many others. Although I respect it, I (and many many others) believe it is NOT the truth.

??????? wrote:

Jesus on the other hand voluntarly humbled Himself and became a "servant", this pleased God the Father.

If this act of Jesus pleased God the Father, this means they are different entities, otherwise could God do something to please Himself? I recognize that I still have (serious) problems understanding the oneness of God in Christianity.
On the other hand, in Islam, there is One and a Unique God.

The Bible wrote:

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58)

Even if Jesus meant to claim by these words that he was alive before Abraham was, is this sufficient ground to say that he was divine? If Jesus lived in heaven then came to earth it might mean something remarkable, but it would not be enough to establish him as God incarnate. Additionally, it should be noted that these words are open to other interpretation. Christians do not imagine that the prophet Jeremiah had a pre-human existence and so they find a suitable way of interpreting the words of Jeremiah 1:5 which portray such a situation, if taken literally, why not apply a similar understanding in the case of John 8:58?

For the third time, would you mind commenting on my question:

muslim1 wrote:

One may wonder why are priests not allowed to marry and therefore to have sons?

englishmajor wrote:

Is Allah portrayed as a violent God?

Thank you englishmajor for your important question,

Allah (which is the Arabic word for God) Has the Most perfect of attributes, He is not violent, He is indeed the Most Gracious the Most Merciful. But His punishment is a severe one, because He is also Just.
Here is a list of 99 names (or attributes) of our Great Creator:
http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/99names.htm

Steve wrote:

Muslim1...Did Mohammed perform miracles?

I welcome again your questions, Steve, and I thank you for this important one.
Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) had many miracles: the splitting of the moon, the night journey to Jerusalem and then to the Heavens, healing many diseases, recovering the sight for some people...
Here is a gallery of pictures that shows some miracles of Islam that happened just years ago:
http://www.geocities.com/islamimiracles/miracles_of_Allah_Almighty.htm

But, there are two major miracles:

1) Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) himself:
He was an unlettered Prophet, living in the deserts of Arabia, lost his parents and many members of his family, had many enemies (including some of his relatives), Arabia was encircled by two super-power enemies: the Persians and the Romans... Yet, from all that darkness, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) could perfectly deliver God's message to all human beings. And today, 1400 years after, Islam is still a major religion with numerous reverts everyday, and the teachings of our beloved Prophet are and will be valid in the future. How great a Prophet is Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), we love him more than our families, more than ourselves.

2) The Glorious Qur'an:
1400 years after its revelation, the Noble Qur'an is still valid and challenges whosoever to find any mistake or contradiction. Many people converted (I say reverted) to Islam only on hearing verses from the Qur'an. For example, Professor Tajaten Tajasen, the former head of the Department of Anatomy and Embryology and the present dean of the college of Medicine at the university of Chang-mi Thailand, only by hearing and reading the verses that deal with embryology in the Glorious Qur'an (especially 22:5) reverted to the true religion (with my due respect to other religion) and completely changed his life.
I can give you tens of other stories from renounced people who reverted to Islam by reading the Qur'an.
Here are some stories of a few reverts:
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/

And Allah (God) knows best.

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The Sumarians, who predate Christianity by 2000 years believed in the Trinity, thus making it pagan.

The definition of the Trinity was implicit in the New Testament by the early ecumenical councils-notably the Nicene Creed and Constantinople was the product of violent controversy with such heresies as Arianiam, monophysitism, Nestorianism and Monarchianism. It is summed up in the Athanasian Creed. The son is 'eternally begotton' by the Father, the Holy Spirit 'proceeds' from the Father and (in Western theology) from the Son. The doctrine is a mystery and hence has been challenged by rationalists (Deism, unitarianism, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons....

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Hinduism and Zoroastrianism precedes Christianity, does this nake it any truer? Hinduism also have their false representation of the trinity, and as the scriptures often warn is that the devil who is called the "serpent of old" and precedes all the religions of the world is a counterfeiter.

There is ample evidence that proves that the trinity is not of pagan origin:

Trinity not Pagan

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show me, please, where in the Bible it specifically says: Father, Son and Holy Ghost? Can't find it eh? I don't want interpretations, either. Just those three in that order, please.

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Unfortunately, however, it is true that particularly in reference to the beginnings of the doctrine of the Trinity there is still much uncertainty. In this area final clarity has not yet been achieved. As far as the New Testament is concerned, one does not find in it an actual doctrine of the Trinity.
(Pasted from your site Trinity Not Pagan, above).

It is not proven, because it does not exist.

I do not believe and will never believe that God died on the cross. Who was running the universe, then?
That God could have a Son is without question. That His Son died on the cross I can believe.
Human interpretation of the Bible is rife with errors. I don't care what humans say about the Bible. I can read it for myself and discern that if there were a Trinity, it would be clearly stated as such. That it DOES NOT exist is proven by my first statement above, quoting your own source. Cool

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Thats fine by me, you don't have to believe in God or Jesus. That just gives me the relief of not having to waste my time trying to convince you. Furthermore it gives me another reason not to respond to your posts since it won't be beneficial to neither of us. Cool

The word Bible isn't found in the Bible either, does that mean that there is no Bible? Actually the bible has many verses that demonstrate the Triunity of God, unless you choose to deliberately ignore it and turn a deaf ear, but then again what difference does it make to someone who doesn't believe in God or Jesus? Cool

Luke 1:35: "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. "
Luke 4:1-12: "Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness for forty days, Jesus answered him, "It is written , ?'You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only."
John 14:16: "I will ask the Father , and He will give you another Helper , that He may be with you forever"
John 20:21-22: "So Jesus said to them again, " Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit ."
Acts 1:7-8: "He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority ; but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you
Acts 2:33: "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. "
Acts 2:38-39: "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
Acts 5:30-32: "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross... "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."
Acts 7:55: "But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God"
"So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase." (Acts 9:31)
Acts 10:38: "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power"
Acts 10:44-48: "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message and exalting God And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Acts 11:15-17: "the Holy Spirit fell upon them Therefore God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ?"
Acts 15:8-11: "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus"
Acts 20:27-28: "For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. "Be on guard for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. "
Acts 28:25-31: "The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles preaching the kingdom of God and teaching concerning the Lord Jesus Christ"
Romans 1:1-4: "Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son, who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, "
Romans 5:5-6: "the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. "
Romans 8:2-4: "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. "
Romans 8:9 "indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. "
Romans 8:14-17: "For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ"
Romans 8:26-30: "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words God causes all things to work together for good predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son"
Romans 15:16: "to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. "
Romans 15:30: "Now I urge you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God for me,"
1 Corinthians 2:2-5: "For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would rest on the power of God."
1 Corinthians 6:11: "inherit the kingdom of God. you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."
1 Corinthians 12:4-6: "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. "
1 Corinthians 12:11-12,18: "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired."
2 Corinthians 1:21-22: "Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. "
2 Corinthians 3:3-4: "written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God Such confidence we have through Christ toward God."
2 Corinthians 13:14 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."
Galatians 3:1-5: "Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you"
Galatians 3:14: "The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
Galatians 4:4-6: "God sent forth His Son God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
Ephesians 1:3-13: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, " "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace " "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation?-having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, "
Ephesians 2:18: "for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. "
Ephesians 2:19-22: "God's household Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone a holy temple in the Lord dwelling of God in the Spirit."
Ephesians 3:16-17: "that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith"
Ephesians 4:4-6: "one Spirit one Lord one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."
Ephesians 4:30-32: "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you."
Ephesians 5:18-20: "be filled with the Spirit singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord; always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father"
1 Thessalonians 1:3-6: "hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction with the joy of the Holy Spirit"
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14: "always give thanks to God beloved by the Lord sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. "
Titus 3:4-6: "the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior"
Hebrews 2:3-4: "salvation first spoken through the Lord God also testifying gifts of the Holy Spirit"
Hebrews 9:14: "how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God"
Hebrews 10:29-31: "trampled under foot the Son of God has insulted the Spirit of grace It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. "
1 Peter 1:2: "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood"
1 Peter 3:18: "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; "
1 Peter 4:14: "If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. "
1 John 3:23-24: "we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."
1 John 4:2: "By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God"
1 John 4:13-14: "He has given us of His Spirit. We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. "
Jude 20-21: "praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. "

Have a nice life!

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Welcome back muslim1, and nice to hear from you again!

muslim1 wrote:

And how many Christians apply this? Did not the 2 destructive world wars involve many Christian countries? Are not the Christian American governments who made (and make) attrocities in Hirochima, Nagazaki, Kandahar, Falloujah, Guantanamo, Abu Ghrib... ?

Actually "all" Christians apply this. Those who do not apply this are not Christians, since the word Christian is defined as someone who follows Christ and His teachings. America is now an apostate Nation and an example of what false Christianity is founded on. Jesus explicitly stated that not everyone who professes Him as "Lord" is a true believer and made a parable to distinguish between true and false converts. And while we are on the subject of loving our neighbours, care to explain why the Quran displays prejudice towards Christians and Jews, and even slanders Christians?

Chapter 5, verse 51 of the Quran wrote:

O, you who believe [in the message of Muhammad], do not take Jews and Christians as friends. They are friends to one another, and the one among you who turns to them is of them.

Truly, God does not guide wrongdoing folk.

Now you may argue that "friends" (awliya) refers to protectors or guardians, however that is still a false accusation. Since Christians who risk life and limb to protect sinners and even muslims out of love for them completely disproves that verse in the Quran. I have muslim friends, and I would risk my life for them if I had to.

muslim1 wrote:

First, your (and my) Creator answers you in the Holy Quran: "Allah knoweth best where (and how) to carry out His mission." [Glorious Qur'an 6:124]
Secondly, I do not discuss why Jesus (peace be upon him) came 2005 years ago (God forbid) - God knows best when and where to send Messengers -, but I discuss the "salvation through Jesus's blood" and why, If it is the only way to Heaven, did it came so late.
PS: You could argue that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) came later than Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him). We believe that Islam was the religion of all the prophets, beginning from Adam (peace be upon him), they were all were Muslims, and the only way to Paradise is Islam: "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). " [Glorious Qur'an 3:85]

Actually the Creator you claim as mines is not what I accept, since I don't believe that the God of the Quran is the same God as the God of the Bible. The God of Christianity Himself in the Old Testament through His prophets foretell of a Jesus who will bear the sins of the world and even die on the cross, a belief that the Quran vehemently opposes. When a prophets speaks on behalf of God Himself, that revelation is true or God Himself is a liar, which is an impossibility.

Quote:

Isaiah 53:10 - Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Jesus said that to "take heed", why? because many false prophet will arise and "deceive" many into believing that there are other paths to God, when Jesus said that He is the ONLY way to God and the only mediator bewtween God and man. I have wisely took heed to that warning. What is interesting is the similarities between the Quran and Mormonism, both claim to have received another doctrine from an "angel" who claims to be a servant of God. What is also interesting is the warnings given throughout the scriptures that warns of such deception:

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But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed (Eternally condemned). And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. (Gal. 1:8; 2 Cor. 11:14,15)

muslim1 wrote:

Not only from my belief but also from the logic which says that this inimaginably beautiful and complex universe is created and run by a God Who is so Perfect, and would not have a human, imperfect state.

An imperfect state? I challenge you to show me the imperfections of Jesus! What I find fascinating about the Bible is its ability to answer the most challenged questions proposed by unbelievers and those who question what God is capable of accomplishing. Nothing is impossible with God, this statement is also applicable to the belief of God incarnating Himself as man. Here are several reasons as to why you may not have the ability to understand the concept of The incarnation of the Son of God:

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1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

and.....

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1 Corinthians 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

muslim1 wrote:

It is always important to study a religion and gather knowledge about it before trying to refute it.
I call upon your friend to read the Glorious Qur'an and study it in an impartial manner.

Then please do the same for the bible, because you have demonstrated thus far that you lack understanding when it comes to interpreting certain passages in context. Example:

msulim1 wrote:

The word of God cannot be profitable for reproof or correction. God does not make mistakes. If reproof or correction are applied to the Scriptures, then the integrity and the authenticity of the whole Bible will be questioned.

If you read the entire bible, you would not have asked that question. Truth is established and understood when taken as a whole, not in bits and pieces.

muslim1 wrote:

If a brother/sister is new to Islam and is therefore unable to refute an allegation, this does not mean the allegation is true. God (Allah in Arabic) orders us to seek knowledge. Indeed, the first revealed word (in chronological order of revelation) was: "Read" [Glorious Qur'an 96:1]

Then wouldn't it be wise to try and seek the knowledge of scriptures without being bias to it? I have ascertained from your previous posts that you haven't studied the scriptures quite well. Would you consider in all honesty reading just the New Testament alone and doing an in-depth study on it, and applying it to your life and see if any positive results will manifest? Anyone can read the scriptures and will still lack understanding because it is not applied to their life. Jesus said that the "Spirit of Truth" will reveal the absolute truth to you, and that this spirit of truth will reside within you. However this is not done unless one believes that Jesus died for their sins and that He is LORD. In other words, according to the scriptures, a person will continue to strive against the truth contained in scriptures and deny its validity because the "Spirit of Truth" does not abide in them because they reject the Son of God.

muslim1 wrote:

I appreciate your frankness here. We - Muslims - worship the God who created the Heavens and the Earth, the God who is the Sustainer of the whole universe, the God of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad... the God who is most Gracious, most Merciful, most Powerful, the God who Has dominance over all things, the God who Has the most perfect of attributes. I don't think Christians or Jews would worship another god...
If the word Allah poses problem, then many Lebanese and Egyptian Christians call God Allah. As I said in many occasions, Allah is the Arabic word for God.

I fully understand that Allah is arabic for God, since Ihave many muslim friends who tell me this. The scriptures teach us that Jesus is the "word of God" and the Heavens and the Earth were created by God speaking words into existence:

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That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:9,10,14)

muslim1 wrote:

I completely agree here. In Islam, we believe that God revealed the originals which were without error, by name: The Taurah (to Moses peace be upon him), The Zaboor (to David peace be upon him), The Injeel (to Jesus peace be upon him). But, due to copyist errors and other reasons, the Bible we have today is, with all due respect, not exactly the one revealed by God.

The Quran hasn't changed one bit? Care to explain this?

http://www.submission.org/tampering.html

muslim1 wrote:

And here is the vital point! Do you have any proof that "The Trinity", "Jesus is son of God", "Jesus is God", "Salvation is only throught Jesus" are not simply copyist errors, just like Ahaziah story?

Thats completely absurd, I can ask you the same question. How do you know that human beings who are capable of "error" have infallibly translated the Quran from its original manuscript correctly? Not trying to sound rude, but every muslim thus far has posed the same question to deny that Jesus is the Son of God, and that is what if the bible has copyists errors? The first translation of the Hebrew Old Testament into another language was called the Septuagint, Seventy scholars were brought to Alexandria, Egypt, to create this Greek translation. The work began around 280 B.C and was completed about 100 years later. This work is significant to us because it proves the Old Testament was canonized by this time. It is also important because its agreement with the original Hebrew text shows the translators took great care to create an accurate work. I can give you an entire history of how accurate the bible is and then ask you how certain are you in regards to the accuracy of the Quran, since men are not infallible?

muslim1 wrote:

In Islam, we worship God alone. Now, the Glorious Qur'an is so important because it was, is and will be a guide to many people towards the truth.

Once again, that is your belief and there are many others who claim their belief is true, does this make it any truer? If a father tells his son that the stove is hot, can the son know for certain that the stove is indeed hot? Unless the scriptures are actually "applied" to the persons life, it won't ring any truer to an atheist or a satanist.

muslim1 wrote:

First, the Glorious Qur'an is the book revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) by God almighty.
Secondly, maybe you'll be surprised, but the Glorious Qur'an also calls Jesus (peace be upon him) a "Word of God". In fact: "Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah."[Glorious Qur'an 3:45]
Jesus (peace be upon him) is called "Word of God" because God created him with a single word: Be! and he was.

Both the Old and New Testaments describe Jesus as "uncreated" and eternal. Furthermore I am not surprised that the Quran calls Jesus a "word of God" rather than the "Word of God", you are aware that one word altered can mislead many people who aren't grounded in their faith right?

muslim1 wrote:

I indeed stand very firm in my belief, not due to an intelligence or strength from my part (God forbid), but thanks to a guidance from my Creator. All Praise be to God alone.

so be it, but regardless of what people believe in, all will meet their maker. And I stand firm to what the scriptures state, and that is:

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That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:10,11)

muslim wrote:

Sure? Do not the copyist errors put doubts on the integrity of the Bible (which is the heart of the Christian belief)? God almighty does not make any error...

You are absolutely correct, God does not make errors. I am also certain that to say that the MOST VITAL DOCTRINE in all of the Bible has copyists errors is absurd. Do you know how may passages in the bible speaks of Jesus dying for my sins and for the sins of the World? Both Old and New Testaments? innumerable. And in order for my belief to fly out the window, all of them would have to be subject to copyists errors. Furthermore, I am willing to bet that God in His "foreknowledge" entrusted men capable of providing us with an accurate enough translation to live by and to save our souls from death. Its only when people willingly, deliberately, and biasedly look for a reasons to reject the authenticity of the scriptures that their hearts become hardened to its truth.

muslim1 wrote:

No, more than that. It is (and will be) the opinion of billions (including some non-muslims). It is a fact, my friend.

Sure about this? The Bible is also an absolute truth to me, and I will take to what Jesus said, since He foresaw that people will reject His words found in the scriptures:

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John 12:48 - He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

I don't find it a coincidence how the comments spoken by those who reject the bibles truth is told by Jesus Himself centuries ago. There is far too much admonitions given throughout scriptures which foretell how the words of Jesus will be rejected and how the wise will take heed to it.

muslim1 wrote:

First, it is in the definition of believers that we disagree, not in the fact that God Has the ability to do everything.
Secondly, I have never come across or read about a Christian who passed (unintentionally) the "deadly poison" test and proved that.

Your asking for me to prove something which is difficult, since drinking deadly poison by mistake is uncommon. And secondly you expect me to do a research and ask Christians if they had mistakenly ingested deadly poison and lived? Not only is the rarety hard to come by, but just because I have yet to prove doesn't make it untrue.

muslim1 wrote:

That is your belief and the one of many others. Although I respect it, I (and many many others) believe it is NOT the truth.

I noticed that you capitalized "NOT", doesn't that seem a tad bias? Perhaps I can tell you that I "believe" the Quran a big whopper and the greatest deception and most cunning and beguiling manipulative masterpiece the devil has ever accomplished, would you respect my opinion? Obviously not. If you believe that the Bible is not the truth, then it is obviously a lie and NOT of God, doesn't sound too respectable, does it?

muslim1 wrote:

If this act of Jesus pleased God the Father, this means they are different entities, otherwise could God do something to please Himself? I recognize that I still have (serious) problems understanding the oneness of God in Christianity.
On the other hand, in Islam, there is One and a Unique God.

They are "distinct" persons, God is not pleased at Himself. The Son does whatever the Father does, however they are distinct in persons. God is also One in Christianity, the same One God as revealed in the Old Testament when God declared in Deuteronomy 6:4 - Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. Jesus said that He came to "reveal" God for who He truly is: Matthew 11:27 - All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Jesus and the apostles often used the word "One" to describe Unity and not necessarily a numerical One. Although the Son is a distinct person from the Father, they are one in absolute Unity and accordance, of the same essence and nature.

muslim1 wrote:

Even if Jesus meant to claim by these words that he was alive before Abraham was, is this sufficient ground to say that he was divine? If Jesus lived in heaven then came to earth it might mean something remarkable, but it would not be enough to establish him as God incarnate. Additionally, it should be noted that these words are open to other interpretation. Christians do not imagine that the prophet Jeremiah had a pre-human existence and so they find a suitable way of interpreting the words of Jeremiah 1:5 which portray such a situation, if taken literally, why not apply a similar understanding in the case of John 8:58?

This common refutation is what the cultic denomination such as the Jehovahs Witnesses use to deny the Deity of Christ. Unfortunately I have heard all sides of this argument and have concluded that only someone who purposely turns a deaf ear will deny that this passage indubitably proves that Jesus Himself claimed to be God. Once again the question was not just who He was but "How long He (Christ) existed? The answer? "I EVER EXIST", and so existed before Abraham). "I AM" (ego eimi) is used absolutely and without a predicate and is clear that it is a distinction of His timelessness as opposed to mans temporal existence. Common sense tells us that only God can claim to "EVER EXIST". Jeremiah had a pre-human existence? Did Jeremiah EVER EXIST?

muslim1 wrote:

For the third time, would you mind commenting on my question:

One may wonder why are priests not allowed to marry and therefore to have sons?

Forgive me if I am being obtuse but I'm not sure what your trying to tell me and what the so-called argument is? Do you have something against priests not being allowed to marry, or having to have sons?

I post on many forums, but bear with me because I have many more questions to ask of you.

Take care for now and God Bless!

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Thanks for the miracles references Muslim1

However the cloud that spelled out the name of Allah looked remarkably like a cloud to me. And the photograph of snow on a mountainside which also spelled out the name of Allah looked remarkably like snow on a mountainside. Are these people serious?

They dont compare with ????????'s experience of actually having his broken ankle and ligaments fixed.

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englishmajor wrote:

Unfortunately, however, it is true that particularly in reference to the beginnings of the doctrine of the Trinity there is still much uncertainty. In this area final clarity has not yet been achieved. As far as the New Testament is concerned, one does not find in it an actual doctrine of the Trinity.
(Pasted from your site Trinity Not Pagan, above).

It is not proven, because it does not exist.

I do not believe and will never believe that God died on the cross. Who was running the universe, then?
That God could have a Son is without question. That His Son died on the cross I can believe.
Human interpretation of the Bible is rife with errors. I don't care what humans say about the Bible. I can read it for myself and discern that if there were a Trinity, it would be clearly stated as such. That it DOES NOT exist is proven by my first statement above, quoting your own source.

I shall have, and do have, a nice life!! Merci beaucoup. I read the Bible for myself and don't need/want interpretations from other humans, who only attach their own take on it. You aren't God or Jesus, which makes you culpable as anyone else. Remember: all those who say Lord, Lord will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I shall continue my beliefs and you of course will continue yours. Have a life.

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You are absolutely correct, all those who call Jesus Lord will not enter Heaven. Pride, living in sin, and failure to repent and a failure to love others are are the primary reasons why Jesus will say to MANY "I never knew you". As for me, I won't be among those who are rejected by Him since I know who Jesus is and believe in Him. You can read the bible cover to cover a hundred times over and it won't make a bit of a difference until you apply its instructions to your life. And as for interpretations from other human beings, you would also fall into that category, since you are but a mere human who is also subject to falliblity and culpability. I thinks its time to take your own advice, especially your ending remarks. As to your biblical quote in your last response, that applies to those who "NEVER KNEW" Jesus. The word "know" (ginosko) means to have an intimate knowledge of, especially relationship-wise. That passage you quoted applies to those who do not know the Lord Jesus as their personal Savior and also applies to '"false converts" who claim to know Him with their vain deeds and to glorify themselves rather than God.

Take Care and God Bless!

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How pompous and assumptive of you to assume that God will welcome you into his fold; as if you knew who had tickets on the soul train! I read and discern the Bible FOR MYSELF. I apply principles that I think Jesus would agree with. I don't need to consult arrogant people (I'll restrain my arrogant laughter, to quote you). You are dangerous, just like Mr. Bush. He is a Christian. Does he show love for others - like to Muslims? I think not. Take your palaver elsewhere. I'd join up with Islam before I'd swallow your idea of God. I don't assume I will go to heaven- whatever that means- like you do. Therefore you are committing the sin of pride. You think you are better than someone else, don't you? I think I hear your therapist calling. See ya.
(Moslems also accept Jesus).

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Actually I don't think that I am better than anyone else and could care less if thats what you believe by your assumptions. Call me pompous or arrogant if that makes you feel better. I believe you need to relax and cease from your derogatory remarks. If you read the bible as you said you did, then you would realize that it also tells us that we can know for sure that we are His and that we at the present time possess eternal life.

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John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jesus said "TRULY", those who are Genuine Believers "hath" (present tense possession) eternal life. Now unless Jesus is a liar the believer at the moment possesses eternal life, and logistically speaking, eternal life is eternal. Therefore if the believer loses eternal life (salvation) it was never eternal life to begin with and thus a contradiction to the phrase "eternal life". Furthermore the believer "is passed" [perfect active indicative] of (metabaino)which represents something which has been completed in the past and has continuous results into the present. Furthermore it states that the person shall not "come into condemnation", i.e., he cannot fall away into perdition.

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These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13)

"Ye may know" is [perfect active subjunctive] which means that it is possible to know intuitively that we have eternal life, and that this knowledge is established within us. I would rather trust in Gods infallible words than a person who is not only capable of error, but questions Gods truth. Secondly, you have done nothing but slander me in your last response. I don't know who or who will not enter heaven and never that claim, nor do I judge others who are supposedly Christian such as G.W.B. I was born a sinner just like everyone else, believe that I deserve the penalty of death like everyone else, called upon the Lord to save me from my sins and thus am given eternal life. I am arrogant and pompuous for this? Pride, living in sin, and failure to repent and a failure to love others are are the primary reasons why Jesus will say to MANY "I never knew you", this applies to "all men and women", however you got personal and attacked me verbally and made derrogatory remarks and judged me and others. Why? I responded to you because I am concerned and you have treated me awfully and made deroggatory remarks, why?

You can continue to badger me, and I will continue to pray for you. I suppose you find this arrogant too!

God Bless!

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???????

wrote

"and (I) could care less if thats what you believe by your assumptions."

now it just so happens that some of us have been discussing this problem right here on a2k, but its the first time ive seen the phrase "in the flesh" so to speak

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=59924&start=130

I presume you mean I couldn't care less?

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Your going to have to forgive me if you will, I am not sure as to what you are indicating in your response by "in the flesh" (God manifested in the flesh perhaps). Also my grammar has always been faulty since I was young, and you are correct in correcting my grammar since couldn't care less is what was being implied. If you have any queries in regards to the term "in the flesh", then I would be more than glad to oblige.

God Bless!

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no did not mean anything about "in the flesh" in religious context.

Just meant it was the first time I have ever seen real use of the term "could care" and mean "couldnt care", but I believe its quite common in the US. Hence the a2k thread. (you will see if you go to the thread that I've got quite strong views on that too Smile

!)

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