mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2005 09:30 pm
flushd wrote:
Listen, I am not a Muslim myself, but when exactly did this thread become a vehicle for spreading hate, Steve?

I see information. Where do you see hate?

flushd wrote:
To disagree is one thing. You are doing nothing more here than trying to spread your own idea of the 'right way to live'. Perhaps you should allow others to voice their understanding of Islam. That way, we might all actually learn something.

What are you talking about? How is Steve preventing others from voicing their understanding? If you are really interested in learning , perhaps you should try reading from the beginning of this thread.

flushd wrote:
Also, I wanted to point out that your fine country has many Muslim citizens. They are Americans. Do you harass them on the street and shout to them "terrorists"? I sincerely hope not. This is exactly where America is going wrong: you are enemies to yourselves.

Steve is in London U.K.
0 Replies
 
brahmin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2005 10:59 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

INDIA

"On the evidence of Baladhuri's account of the conquest of Sind, there were certainly massacres in the towns of Sind when the Arabs first arrived..."C.E. Bosworth

The Muslim conquest of Sind was masterminded by Hajjaj, the Governor of Iraq, and effected by his commander Muhammad b. Qasim in 712 A.D. Qasim's instructions were to "bring destruction on the unbelievers...[and] to invite and induce the infidels to accept the true creed, and belief in the unity of God... and whoever does not submit to Islam, treat him harshly and cause injury to him till he submits."

After the capture of the port of Debal, the Muslim army took three days to slaughter the inhabitants, but thereafter Qasim is more tolerant allowing many to continue their professions and practise their religion. This is not acceptable to Hajjaj, who, on receiving Qsaim's report of his victory, wrote back :"My dear cousin, I have received your life -augmenting letter. On its receipt my gladness and joy knew no bounds. It increased my pride and glory to the highest degree. It appears from your letter that all the rules made by you for the comfort and convenience of your men are strictly in accordance with religious law. But the way of granting pardon prescribed by the law is different from the one adopted by you, for you go on giving pardon to everybody, high or low, without any discretion between a friend and a foe. The great God says in the Koran [xlvii.4]: O True believers, when you encounter the unbelievers, strike off their heads. "The above command of the Great God is a great command and must be respected and followed. You should not be so fond of showing mercy, as to nullify the virtue of the act. Henceforth grant pardon to no one of the enemy and spare none of them, or else all will consider you a weak-minded man. Concluded with compliments. Written by Nafia in the year ninety three." Later, Hajjaj returns to the same theme: "My distinct orders are that all those who are fighting men should be assassinated, and their sons and daughters imprisoned and retained as hostages." Obedient to a fault, Qasim, on his arrival at the town of Brahminabad, "ordered all the men belonging to the military classes to be beheaded with swords. It is said that about 6000 fighting men were massacred on this occasion, some say 16000. The rest were pardoned."

05.04

MAHMUD OF GHAZNI (969 -The real conquest of India by the Muslims dates from the beginning of the 11th century. In 1000 A.D., the head of a Turco- Afghan dynasty, Mahmud of Ghazni first passed through India like a whirlwind, destroying, pillaging and massacring, all of which he justified by constant references to the Koranic injunctions to kill idolaters, whom he had vowed to chastise every year of his life. As Vincent Smith put it, "Mahmud was a zealous Muslim of the ferocious type then prevalent, who felt it to be a duty as well as pleasure to slay idolaters. He was also greedy of treasure and took good care to derive a handsome profit from his holy wars." In the course of seventeen invasions, in the words of Alberuni the scholar brought by Mahmud to India,: "Mahmud utterly ruined the prosperity of the country, and performed there wonderful exploits, by which the Hindus became like atoms of dust scattered in all directions, and like a tale of old in the mouth of the people. Their scattered remains cherish, of course, the most inveterate aversion towards all Muslims." Mahmud began by capturing King Jaipal in the Punjab, then invaded Multan in 1004. On conquering the district of Ghur, he forcibly converted the inhabitants to Islam. Mahmud accumulated vast amounts of plunder from the Hindu temples he desecrated, such as that of Kangra. "Mathura, the holy city of Krishna, was the next victim. 'In the middle of the city there was a temple larger and finer than the rest, which can neither be described nor painted'. The Sultan [Mahmud] was of the opinion that 200 years would have been required to build it. The idols included 'five of red gold, each five yards high', with eyes formed of priceless jewels. 'The Sultan gave orders that all the temples should be burnt with naphtha and fire, and leveled with the ground. 'Thus perished works of art which must have been among the noblest monuments of ancient India." [VA Smith 207] At the battle of Somnath, the site of another celebrated Hindu temple, 50000 were killed as Mahmud assuaged his lust for booty.

Mahmud was equally ferocious with those whom he considered heretics such as Dawud of Multan. In 1010, Mahmud invaded Dawud 's kingdom and slaughtered a great number of his heretical subjects. While Muslim historians see him as one of the glories of Islam, in reality, Mahmud was little more than an avaricious bandit undeserving of admiration.

FRUZ SHAH

In 1351, Firuz Shah ascended the throne and became ruler of the North of India. Though in many ways an enlightened man, when it came to religion was a bigot of the first order. He is said to have made "the laws of the Prophet his guide." He indulged in wholesale slave -raiding, and is said to have had 180000 slaves in his city, all of whom "became Muslims." But, as Vincent Smith says, he could be most savage when his religious zeal was roused. He seized a number of Shias, some he executed, others he lectured, and their books he burnt. He caused the ulama to kill a man who claimed to be the Mahdi, "and for this good action", he wrote, "I hope to receive future reward." He went to visit a village where a Hindu religious fair was being held, which was even attended by some "graceless Musalmans." He wrote: "I ordered that the leaders of these people and the promoters of this abomination should be put to death. I forbade the infliction of any severe punishment on the Hindus in general, but I destroyed their idol temples and instead thereof raised mosques." Later a Brahman who had practised his rites in public was burnt alive. Firuz Shah was simply carrying on the tradition of the early Muslim invaders, and he sincerely believed "that he served God by treating as a capital crime the public practice of their religion by the vast majority of his subjects [i.e.Hindus]." Firuz Shah also bribed a vast number of Hindus into embracing Islam, by exempting those who converted from the jizya or poll-tax, which was otherwise rigorously enforced, even on Firuz Shah, when due allowance is made for his surroundings and education, could not have escaped from the theory and practice of religious intolerance. It was not possible for him to rise, as Akbar did, to the conception that the ruler of Hindustan should cherish all his subjects alike, whether Muslim or Hindu, and allow every man absolute freedom, not only of conscience but of public worship. The Muslims of the fourteenth century were still dominated by the ideas current in the early days of Islam, and were convinced that the tolerance of idolatry was a sin."

AKBAR THE GREAT (1542-1605)

It is significant and ironical that the most tolerant of all the Muslim rulers in the history of India was also the one who moved farthest away from orthodox Islam, and in the end rejected it for an eclectic religion of his own devising. Akbar abolished the taxes on Hindu pilgrims at Muttra, and remitted the jizya or poll tax on non-Muslims. Akbar had early shown an interest in religions other than the rigid Islam he had grown up in. Under the influence of freethinkers at his court like Abul Fazl, and Muslim and Hindu mysticism, Akbar developed his interest in comparative religion to the extent of building a special "house of worship "in which to hold religious discussions. At first, the discussions were restricted to Muslim divines, who thoroughly disgraced themselves in their childish behaviour. Akbar was profoundly disgusted, for their comportment seemed to cast doubt on Islam itself. Now Akbar decided to include Hindus, Jains, Zoroastrians, Jews, and eventually three Jesuit fathers from the Portuguese colony of Goa. The Jesuit fathers were treated with the utmost respect; Akbar even kissed the Bible and other Christian holy images -- something totally revolting to an orthodox Muslim. One of the Jesuits became a tutor to Akbar's son. There were further acts that alarmed and angered the Muslims. First, Akbar proclaimed the Infallibility decree, which authorized the emperor to decide with binding authority any question concerning the Muslim religion, provided the ruling should be in accordance with some verse of the Koran. Second, Akbar again scandalised the Muslims by displacing the regular preacher at the mosque, and himself mounting the pulpit, reciting verses composed by Faizi,the brother of the freethinking Abul Fazl. The Muslim chiefs in the Bengal now considered Akbar an apostate, and rose up in revolt against him. When the rebellion was crushed, Akbar felt totally free to do what he wanted. And, in the words of V. Smith, "He promptly took advantage of his freedom by publicly showing his contempt and dislike for the Muslim religion, and by formally promulgating a new political creed of his own, adherence to which involved the solemn renunciation of Islam." Akbar rejected the Muslim chronology, establishing a new one starting from his accession. He further outraged the Muslims by issuing coins with the ambiguous phrase "Allahu Akbar", a frequent religious invocation known as the Takbir, which normally means "God is Great"(akbar = great), but since Akbar is also the emperor's name,"Allahu Akbar" could also mean "Akbar is God." Akbar 's aim throughout his reign was to abate hostility towards Hindus, and his own vague religion was "a conscious effort to seem to represent all his people." He adopted Hindu and Parsee (Zoroastrian) festivals and practices. Thus it is not surprising that"his conduct at different times justified Christians, Hindus, Jains, and Parsis [Parsees] in severally claiming him as one of themselves." Akbar's driving principle was universal toleration, and all the Hindus, Christians, Jains and Parsees enjoyed full liberty of conscience and of public worship. He married Hindu princesses, abolished pilgrim dues, and employed Hindus in high office. The Hindu princesses were even allowed to practise their own religious rites inside the palace. "No pressure was put on the princes of Amber, Marwar, or Bikaner to adopt Islam, and they were freely entrusted with the highest military commands and the most responsible administrative offices. That was an entirely new departure, due to Akbar himself..."

AURANGZEB (1618-1707)

Akbar's great grandson, Aurangzeb, was, in total contrast, a Muslim puritan, who wished to turn his empire into a land of orthodox Sunni Islam, ruled in accordance with the principles laid down by the early Caliphs. Once again, we enter the world of Islamic intolerance -- temples are destroyed (during the campaigns of 1679_80, at Udaipur 123 were destroyed, at Chitor sixty-three; at Jaipur sixty-six); and non -Muslims become second class citizens in their own country. The imperial bigot, to use Smith's phrase, reimposed the "hated jizya, or polltax on non-Muslims, which Akbar had wisely abolished early in his reign." Aurangzeb's aim was to curb the infidels and demonstrate the "distinction between a land of Islam and a land of unbelievers." "To most Hindus Akbar is one of the greatest of the Muslim emperors of India and Aurangzeb one of the worst; to many Muslims the opposite is the case. To an outsider there can be little doubt that Akbar's way was the right one.... Akbar disrupted the Muslim community by recognising that India is not an Islamic country: Aurangzeb disrupted India by behaving as though it were." [Gascoigne 227]

BUDDHISM AND BUDDHISTS

"Between 1000 and 1200 Buddhism disappeared from India, through the combined effects of its own weaknesses, a revived Hinduism and Mohammedan persecution" Edward Conze [117] "[Buddhism in India] declined after Moslem conquest of Sindh, A.D. 712, and finally suppressed by Moslem persecution A.D.1200 " Christmas Humphreys

"It is partly, no doubt, because of the furor islamicus that post-Gupta remains are surprisingly few in Bihar..." J.C.Harle [199]

Qutb ud din Aibak, described as "merciless and fanatical", sent his general, Muhammad Khilji, to the northern state of Bihar to continue the Muslim conquests that began in late 12th century. Buddhism was the main religion of Bihar. In 1193,the Muslim general, considering them all idolaters, put most of the Buddhist monks to the sword, and a great library was destroyed. "The ashes of the Buddhist sanctuaries at Sarnath near Benares still bear witness to the rage of the image-breakers. Many noble monuments of the ancient civilisation of India were irretrievably wrecked in the course of the early Muslim invasions. Those invasions were fatal to the existence of Buddhism as an organized religion in northern India, where its strength resided chiefly in Bihar and certain adjoining territories. The monks who escaped massacre fled, and were scattered over Nepal, Tibet, and the south.."

The Muslim conquests of Central Asia also put an end to its Buddhist art. As early as the 8th century, the monasteries of Kizil were destroyed by the Muslim ruler of Kashgar, and as Benjamin Rowland says, "by the tenth century only the easternmost reaches of Turkestan had escaped the rising tide of Mohammedan conquest. "The full tragedy of these devastations is brought out by the words of Rowland: "The ravages of the Mongols, and the mortifying hand of Islam that has caused so many cultures to wither for ever, aided by the process of nature, completely stopped the life of what must for a period of centuries have been one of the regions of the earth most gifted in art and religion."




thanks very much for posting that.


thing is, if i had posted or alluded to the same incidents and facts, then i'd most likely have been branded as some sort of "right wing hindutva fundamentalist" or some other member of this most non-existant oxymoronic family.


i said here at A2K before too, that whether i say it or dont, or whether someone else does or doesnt, does not matter. HISTORY SAYS IT and in BOLD letters.


unfortunately the crappy western media vehicles, the NYTs and the BBCs choose to deny this holocaust, whilst devoting their last minute of air time to minor pitfalls on the part of hindus - thus giving everyone a wrong idea of things.


btw since you've been researching,
this is a webpage that could interest you and provide you more references.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2005 04:46 am
flushd

Your last post shows I made a mistake in taking you seriously.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2005 05:23 am
Brahmin

Interesting webpage thanks.

I'm not taking "sides" in this as you probably realise. I come to this primarily as a secularist and liberal.

We should be tolerant of religion but not let our tolerance be taken advantage of by politicised religion which seeks to destroy the very society that gives it freedom of expression in the first place.

It is time, imo to fight bad ideas with better ideas and not hold back because it challenges religious belief.
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2005 06:39 am
I apologize for my last post.

I wrote it in a highly emotional, irrational state of mind. I doubt it even had anything to do with this thread. Also, I noticed that Steve is in the UK. My mistake. Just goes to show you how upset I was when I wrote that.

I'm bowing out of this thread. It simply pisses me off too much. Embarrassed

cheers
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2005 11:41 am
There is no need to leave or apologise flush. I've been called worse things than being American. Wink

I got the impression from your previous posts that you had some interesting things to say....so lets here it from you.
0 Replies
 
muslim1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2005 06:48 pm
flushd wrote:
I apologize for my last post.

I wrote it in a highly emotional, irrational state of mind. I doubt it even had anything to do with this thread.

You do not have to apologize, sister. It was a very interesting and important post.


flushd wrote:
I'm bowing out of this thread. It simply pisses me off too much.

No need to quit. Your important views are most welcome.


Steve wrote:
flushd

Your last post shows I made a mistake in taking you seriously.

It's not nice from your part, Steve, to say that.
Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), who is a Messenger to all human beings (including you), said: "Treat women nicely" [Bukhari 4:55:548].


Steve wrote:
I've been doing a little research on Islam

"little" research. So why do you judge Islam when your knowledge about it is so limited?
Anyway, I encourage you to continue your research without pre-established ideas, not from your cut/paste articles (in this thread and others), but from books and websites reflecting true Islamic teachings.
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2005 09:48 pm
Ok, well thank you for being generous enough to see that I was just having a bad day. Smile

I came to this thread with the sincere intention of learning something. I have learned a few things already, and would love to be able to stay and hear some more.

I suppose the political climate; and personal climate ; lately, has led me to realize that I can get emotional about this issue just like many other folks (we're just human, after all). Razz

thanks.
0 Replies
 
brahmin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Sep, 2005 04:04 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Brahmin

Interesting webpage thanks.

I'm not taking "sides" in this as you probably realise. I come to this primarily as a secularist and liberal.


welcome and i am not taking sides either.

if i did, i'd be expressing my "opinions" about the issue at hand.

but what i, and that site did are not express opinions or misinformation, but plain facts as attested by history and by the books/chronicles of victors, vanquished and 3rd parties (eg Tiffenthaler. if you want to know a neutral third party's account of how things were in islamic india, Tiffenthaler is a good bet as he was a visitor to india and was a historian who wrote vivid accounts of life in india during during his day. often, being a westerner and hence outside the grasp of the islamic rulers, he wrote acounts of attrocities and oppression - upon returning to the west i presume, that hindus would not dare mention themselves.)

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

We should be tolerant of religion but not let our tolerance be taken advantage of by politicised religion which seeks to destroy the very society that gives it freedom of expression in the first place.

It is time, imo to fight bad ideas with better ideas and not hold back because it challenges religious belief.


but "tolerance taken advantage of" is precisely what happened with muslim rulers in india and the portueguese christians in goa (the engish & french were extremely non religious in their exploitation).

jews found a home in cochin other parts of india (gogle "cochin jews" if you dont know about this) as did the zoarastrians who had to flee iran when iran fell to islam - we touched neither and they in turn never disturbed us.

but muslims and portuguese (by starting the most deadly of their many inquisitions anywhere - again attested by their own records) took advantage of that same tolerance.

there's a undercurrent of negation and deliberate forgetfullness in india - and thats what a certain political party wants to reverse. we should never forget what we had to go through - else its bound to happen again. in this we have quite a few leaves to borrow from the jews - they will never let the world, even less themselves, forget what happened to them - and hence attrocities wont repeat.

calling a spade a spade and presenting bitter chapters of history as-it-is, is NOT politicising of religion, but rather honest NON-escapism of historical facts.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Sep, 2005 07:12 am
interesting post brahmin thanks

you watching/listening to cricket by any chance?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Sep, 2005 07:51 am
muslim1 wrote

"Anyway, I encourage you to continue your research without pre-established ideas, not from your cut/paste articles (in this thread and others), but from books and websites reflecting true Islamic teachings."

.....and underlined the word true

which is the problem

what is truth?

truth according to Islamic tradition?

or truth as recorded by objective commentators?

If you wanted to learn the "truth" about Jesus Christ, would you concentrate your researches on evangelical Christian websites and read and re read the New Testament?

The problem as I see it is that Islam offers its followers simplistic black and white, true or false solutions and life is not like that. It might be comforting to embrace a philosophy which gives easy answers and offers paradise providing you stick to the rules, but in reality things are a bit more complicated.

If Muslim1, as I think you have said in the past, "EVERYTHING is determined by the will of Allah" how can a an electron be a particle and a wave at the same time and only resolve into one or the other depending how it is observed?
0 Replies
 
brahmin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Sep, 2005 08:04 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
interesting post brahmin thanks

you watching/listening to cricket by any chance?

welcome and
yes...was checking the score from time to time, not watching.
0 Replies
 
satt fs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 04:22 am
Steve (as 41oo)..
I post here for the first time, and let me post in a most simplified form here.
The Schroedinger equations are deterministic but not stochastic (i.e., probabilistic). Simply one of interpretations of quantum phenomena is stocastic (probabilistic).
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 05:44 am
ok its a while since i grappled with eigen values Smile

but the point I was disputing with our Muslim friend was his contention that everything is determined by God which implies to me at least that chance, probability and presumably quantum mechanics have no place within Islam.
0 Replies
 
austinsdaddy0105
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 03:54 pm
Jesus
How can you say that Jesus, the Messiah, is going to return Earth yet not believe that he is the Son of God? I think that Islam is good in the respect that it was written and still remains untainted in Arabic. I am also interested in it very much so, and feel uneducated and would love to learn more. If God used Mohammed as the medium, then how/why does both the Bible and the Quran have striking similarities? More to come later. Smile
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Sep, 2005 04:36 pm
well welcome to a2k austin

i'm sure newsoul muslim1 or qkid will answer your question once it's been deciphered.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Sep, 2005 03:54 am
any answers please?

to me or austin or address satts point?
0 Replies
 
muslim1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Sep, 2005 12:36 pm
Hello Austin and welcome to the forum,

Thank you for asking about my religion. It is my honor and my duty to tell you as much as I can. Islam is based on absolute truth. So it means that I cannot and must not lie about it. The Qur'an tells us that believers must always tell the truth and stand firm for justice even if it is against ourselves and our families. The prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) told us that if anyone is a liar then he is not a believer. So you can be assured from the beginning that I must either tell you what I am absolutely sure of or else tell that I will try to find the answer for your question and then get back to you as soon as I can.


austinsdaddy0105 wrote:
How can you say that Jesus, the Messiah, is going to return Earth yet not believe that he is the Son of God?

Is it logical that God (Allah in Arabic) almighty would have a son?
Here are a few reasons why we Muslims believe that God almighty has no son:

1) "How can He have a son when He hath no consort?" [Holy Qur'an 6:101]
2) If God (Allah in Arabic) wished to have a son, why would He only have one, when He has the governance of all things? "Had Allah wished to take to Himself a son, He could have chosen whom He pleased out of those whom He doth create: but Glory be to Him! (He is above such things.) He is Allah, the One, the Irresistible." [Holy Qur'an 39:4]
3) Would God, who has the most perfect and exalted of attributes and has no partners ruling the heavens and the earth, have a son?

God says in the chapter of Mary:
"They say: "((God)) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
That they should invoke a son for ((God)) Most Gracious.
For it is not consonant with the majesty of ((God)) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to ((God)) Most Gracious as a servant."
[Holy Qur'an 19:88-93]

As for the coming of Jesus (peace be upon him), I don't see why he should be God's son to be able to return to earth. God almighty over all things hath Power, so the same way He lifted up a human (Jesus), He will send him back to earth.
Jesus (peace be upon him) will return earth, and then will have a normal death. In fact, every human being will have died before the Day of Judgment: "Every soul shall have a taste of death" [Holy Qur'an 3:185]


austinsdaddy0105 wrote:
If God used Mohammed as the medium, then how/why does both the Bible and the Quran have striking similarities?

Certainly, there are similarities between the Bible and the Qur'an (creation, moral codes, previous prophets...). Those similarities come from the fact that the present Bible may contain parts of the original Injeel (Arabic word for Gospel), which was revealed to prophet Jesus (peace be upon him).

If I understand your question (please correct me if I'm wrong), do you mean that prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) copied the Qur'an from the Bible?
That is impossible, because prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was illiterate and because the oldest Arabic version of the new Testament was published by Erpenius in 1616 AD - about a thousand years after the demise of our Prophet.
Note that the Bible and the Quran have also 'striking' differences (in science, trinity in christianity, the status of Jesus...).
Again, please correct me if I misunderstood your second question.

If you have other questions, you are most welcome.

And Allah knows best.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Sep, 2005 01:56 pm
Well thank you for responding Muslim1. I have more questions.

I can understand why Muslims dont accept Jesus as the son of God. Except that makes him an ordinary mortal, and in a wider sense we are all sons of God are we not?

But it seems a bit silly to suggest Jesus could not be the Son of God because God had no consort or wife. God the maker of all things, including himself presumably, would not need a woman to create a son.

A better point is that God is so far above man that it is a bit of an insult to his majesty to say he had a son as an ordinary mortal has children.

So Jesus was mortal and a prophet. So why will he come back to earth and die again ? (He's already done that once. The Koran says "every soul will have a taste of death", for Jesus it appears he gets second helpings). Moreover if he's due back, where is he now, what is he doing, and when is he coming?

And is Mohammed (the last and greatest Prophet?) coming back too? If not why not? On the other hand if he is coming back, will he arrive at the same time as Jesus, before, or after?

Finally I would like an answer to a question I've asked before. The Muslims seem to attach great importance to the fact that Mohammed was illiterate; presumably to prove that he could not himself have written the Koran, and its true authorship must therefore have been divine. Mohammed was surrounded by scribes who wrote down all that he said and did. And that was a lot. Yet not one piece of the original writings exists. Not a scrap of parchment or papyrus or bone or pottery or all the other bits and pieces which the scribes were reputed to have used serves as evidence for us to examine. Now it could be that once all the various writings were put together into one book, the Koran, they had no further use for them. So they threw them away. What???!!! They THREW AWAY the ORIGINAL WORDS OF GOD? How likely is that? So I repeat, what happened to them?
0 Replies
 
muslim1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Sep, 2005 10:44 am
Hello Steve,

Thank you for your comments and questions.


Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
So Jesus was mortal and a prophet. So why will he come back to earth and die again ? (He's already done that once. The Koran says "every soul will have a taste of death", for Jesus it appears he gets second helpings).

We Muslims believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) never died before. God says: "That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not" [Holy Qur'an 4:157]
When he returns, Jesus (peace be upon him) will die for the first and last time, just like any other human.


Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Moreover if he's due back, where is he now, what is he doing,

God (Allah in Arabic) knows.


Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
and when is he coming?

We do not know exactly when Jesus will come, but he will surely come. He will return after the antichrist (the Dajjal in Arabic) has appeared. Jesus (peace be upon him) will kill the Dajjal in Jerusalem. Jesus' coming will be "a sign of the approaching Day of Judgment".



Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
And is Mohammed (the last and greatest Prophet?) coming back too? If not why not? On the other hand if he is coming back, will he arrive at the same time as Jesus, before, or after?

Jesus (peace be upon him) will not come to add or subtract anything from Islam. He will not claim himself to be a new Prophet or Messenger. Jesus will be a just judge. He will make right Islamic judgment between the truth and falsehood.
As for the last and final messenger, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), he has already died, and will not return to earth.


Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Finally I would like an answer to a question I've asked before. The Muslims seem to attach great importance to the fact that Mohammed was illiterate; presumably to prove that he could not himself have written the Koran, and its true authorship must therefore have been divine. Mohammed was surrounded by scribes who wrote down all that he said and did. And that was a lot. Yet not one piece of the original writings exists. Not a scrap of parchment or papyrus or bone or pottery or all the other bits and pieces which the scribes were reputed to have used serves as evidence for us to examine. Now it could be that once all the various writings were put together into one book, the Koran, they had no further use for them. So they threw them away. What???!!! They THREW AWAY the ORIGINAL WORDS OF GOD? How likely is that? So I repeat, what happened to them?

Whenever the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) received a revelation, he would first memorize it himself and later declare the revelation and instruct his Companions (who are the most righteous and honest people after the prophets) who would also memorize it. The Prophet would immediately ask the scribes to write down the revelation he had received, and he would reconfirm and recheck it himself. In this way, the complete Qur'an was written down under the personal supervision of the prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

The complete Qur'an, along with the correct sequence of the verses, was present during the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). The verses however, were written on separate pieces, scrapes of leather, thin flat stones, leaflets, palm branches, shoulder blades, etc. After the demise of the prophet, Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him), the first caliph of Islam and the most righteous of the Companions, ordered that the Qur'an be copied from the various different materials on to a common material and place, which was in the shape of sheets. These were tied with strings so that nothing of the compilation was lost.

The third Caliph of Islam, Uthman (may Allah be pleased with him) borrowed the original manuscript of the Qur'an, which was authorized by the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), from Hafsa (may Allah be pleased with her), the Prophet's wife. Uthman (may Allah be pleased with him) ordered four Companions who were among the scribes who wrote the Qur'an when the Prophet dictated it, led by Zaid bin Thabit (may Allah be pleased with him) to rewrite the script in several perfect copies. These were sent by Uthman (may Allah be pleased with him) to the main centres of Muslims.

And above all that, Allah Himself has promised to guard the Qur'an:
"It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it" [Holy Qur'an 75:17]
"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)." [Holy Qur'an 15:9]

If you want more details on this, here is a useful article:
Are There Scribal Errors In The Qur'an?

And Allah knows best.
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