Islamic Creationism

NewSoul wrote:

I don't have time to answer your questions ..

When we wash ourselfs , we wash the inside and not the outside... Water of Dirt , those are the two products used by God to create us. When we wash either with water or dirt it is the action that matters. It is the willing to purify ourselves for the sake of God ( Allah).

If you are doing the inside, it seems that the proper procedure has a lot of emphasis. If you care to call this wisdom for the ages, have at it. To me it looks like archaic superstition.

68. The anus can be made Pak with stone, clod or cloth provided they are dry and Pak. If there is slight moisture on it, which does not reach the outlet, there is no objection.

69. * If one makes oneself totally Pak with stone, clod or cloth once, it will be enough, though it is better to do it three times. In fact, it is better to use three pieces. And if one does not get totally Pak after three times, he may continue till he is Pak. However, there in no harm, if invisible, tiny particles are still there.

70. It is haraam to make the anus Pak with things which are sacred and revered, like, a paper on which the names of Allah and the Prophets are written. And using bones or dung for the purpose, may not make the place Pak.
Source

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Man, you got it all wrong.

I used to go to Church to get girls, May Allah accept my forgiveness. Many go to Church drunk and stinky. Islam is a Model of organisation and Hygiene my friend. Christianity is now a Myth. People got so many Pagan things into it that made it look like a Pagan religion. Worshipping the Cross, JEsus, His Mother MAry Peace be Upon Them to the point that God who is always alive and does not Die who created all has no Will anymore.

At Least Jews are Monotheists but Christianity is going the wrong direction but Jesus Peace Be Upon Him will come back to confirm that he is a Muslim. If you don't believe that you will find out about it in the Day of Judgment when it will be too late to revert to God.

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All praise be to God (Allah). May the peace and blessings of almighty God (Allah) be on his messenger Muhammad.

agrote ;

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Random genetic mutations occur, and cause animals to have particular new characteristics, such as bigger ears, or smaller stomachs.
The animals with the best genes will survive and reproduce, since good genes make them fitter for survival.
When animals reproduce, they pass their genes on to their offspring. This means that the most beneficial random mutations survive accross generations, so that, for example, apes in the future have slightly less hair.
As this gradual process continues to happen over many many years, species can evolve into completely different animals, just as apes have evolved into humans.

That is the process of evolution. Which of thoase premises do you not accept?

With all my respect to your efforts, I don't accept any. The lack of intelligence of an ape could not be transformed into a very smart and intelligent Man throughout the years. What about the languages we speak? Compare them with an ape. And what about the beliefs? Can you describe me an ape's belief (religion, atheism...)?

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Interesting theory. You're saying that the scientists had a grudge against religion, so they immediately accepted Darwinism simply because it cotnradicted religious teachings.

Can you deny that the scientists and the church were (and still are) harsh enemies?

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No, you are mistaken. By your definition of 'theory,' I coudl come up with the theory, "My mother is a mongoose," and since there is no scientific literature or mathematical reasoning proving that statement wrong, I'd have to accept it as true. Are you telling me my mother is a mongoose?! I'm quite insulted. Can we just leave my mother out of this please?

I am not mistaken, I am in the field. If someone states: "this girl is a mongoose" (to avoid your mother), I will say OK. But my logic (which is a reasoning) says by comparing the physical aspects (which is a test) of the two that this theory is baseless.
Similarly, the theory of gravity is subject to many scientific tests (I would say: Falsification tests). Until now, it has been successful in those tests.
Another example: Maxwell equations. James Clerk Maxwell was an unknown person when he annouced his four 'strange' equations. But, those equations can explain the electro-magnetic science and still are succesful when confronted to tests and experiments.
This is what I meant by theory.

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Anyway, I asked for evidence tha Muhammad was illiterate - is there any?

I gave you a logical evidence. Re-read my other post.

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I don't know - I don't claim to know the answer to that. All I can say is that I don't believe that a loving God created it.

Why? Don't you observe how beautiful the universe is? don't you remark how the Earth is protected inside the big universe? Is it not clear how the humanity is protected in this earth? Indeed a most Loving God created all this, the same God who gave you your lovely mother.

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Maybe the universe wasn't created at all. Maybe it has always existed.

It is a scientific fact that our universe is in expansion (by the way, the Holy Qur'an mentioned it 1400 years ago: in the verse 51:47). The continuing expansion of the universe means that, at a particular moment, its size was zero (otherwise it would have been a stable universe, not an expanding one), which means that the universe was created.

mesquite ;

Most of your last posts are related to women in Islam. Before commenting on them, I would like you to describe the status of women in the west (since no lady has responded yet to my two last posts about the catastrophic situation of women in non-muslim environments).

Steve ;

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This is a typical bit of trickery

No. We muslims say only the truth. If I don't know something, I will say "I don't know, God knows best". Saying only the truth is very important in Islam.

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The four websites are all based on the works of author Adnan Oktar who uses the pen name Harun Yahya.The four websites are all based on the works of author Adnan Oktar who uses the pen name Harun Yahya. (Aaron John clever eh?)
He is not a scientist, being educated at Mimar Sinan University's Academy of Fine Arts in Turkey where he studied arts and philosophy.

The very scientific content of the websites is what matters. Can you show me an article there which is unscientific?

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Another deception. Asking for proof of a negative statement.

With all my respect, you are wrong. Asking for proof can be done for any proposition, whether it is negative or not.

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This also complete rubbish. Unworthy of further discussion.

You do not have a solid argument. That's why you can't further discuss certain points.

Peace be on those who follow the guidance of God (Allah) almighty.

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muslim1

your arguments are completely discredited. you argue no better than a teenager who just denies the fact when caught red handed.

Your ideas are nonsense. You have no better knowledge that anyone else, but unlike them you pretend you do.

Islam is a repressive backward looking and discredited religion which should be exposed for what it is, trickery.

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Steve ,
Are you not able to read or something. Are you ?
Did you even read what brother Muslim1 said ?
Or, you are acting as a Blind Christian that blindly believe in some JEsus Christ died in the Cross to save you from the Punishment of God. If there is a Punishment then that means that there will be a Judgment in Justice. In the name of God, we will all see the faces of those Criminals that will ask JEsus (PBUH) to save them and he (Jesus) will disapoint them and say that God is the one who judges because we all belong to him.
Believe blindly on your Confusion as you wish, we are only trying to help you.

Again, if you are not able to discuss Muslim1's points then you just need to stop annoying us with nonsense.

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muslim 1 wrote:

mesquite ;

Most of your last posts are related to women in Islam. Before commenting on them, I would like you to describe the status of women in the west (since no lady has responded yet to my two last posts about the catastrophic situation of women in non-muslim environments).

Actually I was argueing against your claim that the Quran was the greatest reasoning power on earth. The subject of women just came up as a result of pointing out absurdities, one being that before praying, you should wash with dirt if you have been in contact with a woman.

You appear to be in severe denial and keep deflecting the questions.

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muslim1 wrote:

agrote ;
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Random genetic mutations occur, and cause animals to have particular new characteristics, such as bigger ears, or smaller stomachs.
The animals with the best genes will survive and reproduce, since good genes make them fitter for survival.
When animals reproduce, they pass their genes on to their offspring. This means that the most beneficial random mutations survive accross generations, so that, for example, apes in the future have slightly less hair.
As this gradual process continues to happen over many many years, species can evolve into completely different animals, just as apes have evolved into humans.

That is the process of evolution. Which of thoase premises do you not accept?

With all my respect to your efforts, I don't accept any. The lack of intelligence of an ape could not be transformed into a very smart and intelligent Man throughout the years. What about the languages we speak? Compare them with an ape. And what about the beliefs? Can you describe me an ape's belief (religion, atheism...)?

Let me repeat a paragraph of my earlier explanation of evolution:

You accept that different apes have different physical characteristics, right? Some apes are tall, some apes have better eyesight, some apes are smarter because their brains are slightly more developed, or whatever. Okay? So apes, like every other species, are not all identical. Here is something else you should agree with: these physical differences between apes make some apes fitter for survival than others. An ape with better eyesight might find it easier to find food, a smart ape might be better at avoiding danger, and an ape with strong arms might be better able to defend himself. So generally the apes that survive are the fittest apes. Agreed?

Do you agree with that paragraph? Please read it carefully and decide. Before I go any further, just please tell me yes or no whether you accept that paragraph of information. I can't see anything in that paragraph that would contradict your beliefs.

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Interesting theory. You're saying that the scientists had a grudge against religion, so they immediately accepted Darwinism simply because it cotnradicted religious teachings.

Can you deny that the scientists and the church were (and still are) harsh enemies?

No I can't. Naturally, science and religion are in opposition, because they contradict each other in many ways. Perhaps some scientists even take this further and hold irrational prejudices agaisnt religion. And perhaps scientists only accepted Darwinism because they held an irrational prejudice against religion. But only perhaps. Until you back this claim up with some evidence you are merely speculating. Maybe my mother is a mongoose, maybe not. Please give me some evidence that Darwinism was only embraced by the scientific community because the scientific community was irrationally prejudiced agaisnt religion (rather than merely in disagreement with religion).

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Anyway, I asked for evidence tha Muhammad was illiterate - is there any?

I gave you a logical evidence. Re-read my other post.

I'm afraid you didn't. You backed up your claim that Allah authored the Qur'an, but you did not back up your claim that Muhammad was Illiterate. Whether or not he had anythign to do with qriting the Qur'an, I want to know how you knoe that Muhammad was illiterate - you haven't yet provided any evidence for this claim.

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Why? Don't you observe how beautiful the universe is? don't you remark how the Earth is protected inside the big universe? Is it not clear how the humanity is protected in this earth? Indeed a most Loving God created all this, the same God who gave you your lovely mother.

My belief is that everything in nature is beautiful, and that this beauty could have arisen by chance, since if by chance the universe was compeltely different, everything in it would still be natural, and would therefore still be beautiful. I'm not convinced by your argument from design. But I'm not willing to argue against theism in this thread - the issue here is evolution Vs creationism. All I am doign here is telling you what I believe, as you have requested.

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It is a scientific fact that our universe is in expansion (by the way, the Holy Qur'an mentioned it 1400 years ago: in the verse 51:47). The continuing expansion of the universe means that, at a particular moment, its size was zero (otherwise it would have been a stable universe, not an expanding one), which means that the universe was created.

I'm not sure about this, but couldn't the universe always be alternatign between expandign and contracting? Maybe the universe has always existed, but it has always expanded for a while, then contracted, then expanded, etc. Just a thought. The universe has definitely not been proven to be finite - the question is still open.

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The very scientific content of the websites is what matters. Can you show me an article there which is unscientific?

I can.

From http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/20questions01.html:

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However, even today many people think that the theory is a proven fact, like the force of gravity or the law of buoyancy.

You can't prove a hypothesis to be true, you can only prove a competing hypothesis to be false. So gravity has not been proven false, but since we can't prove it to be true, it remains a very well-supported theory, not a proven fact. A scientist would know this.

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...evolution collapses at the very first step: that of explaining the emergence of the first living cell.

That is not the first step. This website seems to assume that the main idea of evolution is that "inanimate matter became living matter by chance, and that is how life began." But the main idea in evolution is that of survival of the fittest - particular genes survive because they create physical characteristics which allow the animal to survive long enough to reproduce. As the environment changes, different genes survive, so members of the species begin to have a different combination of genes, and that is how evolution occurs.

Perhaps evolution does fail to explain how life began - but that does not mean that evolution does not occur, that birds did not evolve from reptiles. Some peopel even believe that God created life, but that the different species evolved fro mthe life that he created - mayeb he created the first cell, and a law of evolution, and then species evolved. That is not what I believe, but it demonstrates that evolution does not need to explain how life began - that is not its main purpose.
Evolution should not be seen as a theory of how life began, but a theory of how different species occur - they evolve from other species.

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Inanimate matter + Time = Millions of complex living species

This is a very bad summary of the theory of evolution. Nobody in the world believes that all that is required for millions of complex living species to coem abotu is a bit of inanimate matter and some time. Nobody believes that if they watch a rock for millions of years it will coem to life and evolve into millions of species.

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the fossil record... shows that no evolutionary process ever happened.

That is a lie. The fossil record provides evidence for evolution. The record is incomplete, and more evidence would of course be welcome. But it is simply a lie to say that the fossil record indicates that evolution never happened.

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muslim1 wrote:

Was the Universe created by chance? If that were the case, why does the moon perform a rotation around the Earth in exactly One day?

The Moon doesn't perform a rotation around the Earth in exactly one day. I'm not entirely sure where you got this idea, the moon rotates the earth every 28 days. Nor is this a constant factor, but rather at different periods in history (geological history, not human history) it has orbited at different speeds and distances. Far from being perfect order, it's quite a variable process.

However what you may be referring to is the intriguing fact that the Moon always presents the same face of its surface to the Earth. Far from being random chance or the act of supreme deities this is a demonstration of the intricate dance of gravity.

The Moon exerts a tidal force upon the earth which is responsible for the tides of the water (it also effects land but this is far less visible to us). The Moon creates a bulge on the Earth and this bulge itself has gravity which acts upon the Moon.

Long story short, as this bulge acts on the Moon it pulls it into a rotational lock with the Earth. It wasn't always this way, it takes many millions of years for the tidal force to create this relationship.

The same effect happens in reverse with the Earth's tidal effect upon the Moon and the correspondent bulge and shift in the Moon's gravity pulling us into a rotational lock, yet because of the smaller size of the Moon this takes much longer.

In the far distant future however the Earth will always present the same face to the Moon as well and our rotation will be so slow that we will only rotate once every 32 days (at that point in time the Moon will also be oribiting slower and take 32 days to complete a lunar cycle).

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The Moon doesn't perform a rotation around the Earth in exactly one day. I'm not entirely sure where you got this idea, the moon rotates the earth every 28 days.

You are right. I wrote that particular post so quickly that I didn't pay attention. In fact, it is the Earth which performs a rotation around itself in on day. The moon rotates around the Earth in a lunar month.

Thanks.

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muslim1 wrote:

You are right. I wrote that particular post so quickly that I didn't pay attention. In fact, it is the Earth which performs a rotation around itself in on day.

So your original point was that it is suspiciously orderly that the Earth rotates exactly once per day?

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Newsoul

I have read what you and Muslim1 have written possibly more carefully than anyone else on this thread.

Muslim1's attempts to discredit evolution fails with the slightest scrutiny. I have made several points in reply, none of which have been properly answered.

Your bluster and threats are frankly pathetic. You presume I must be Christian, although I have made it quite clear that Christians or Muslims or frankly any others who deny evolution in the face of all the evidence are being equally silly.

I could, if I was so inclined, take offence at your reference to Christians being criminals and destined for hell. But then I would object equally to sweeping statements equating Islam with terrorism.

It is not my intention to annoy anyone. I merely point out the absurdity of taking ideas written in books 2000 or 1400 years ago and treating them as if they are the absolute truth. Mankind has developed and progressed since the days of the old Testament and the Koran. I attack the ideas you hold, not you. But if you become annoyed because you are forced to think critically about Islam, then I think maybe I'm making some progress.

Watchmaker

I will accept (as a circular argument in more senses than one) that if the earth takes EXACTLY one day to rotate on its axis, and takes EXACTLY one year to rotate around the sun, that could be taken (by some here) as proof of the existence of God. But as that means one year is thus APPROXIMATELY equal to 365.2422 days it suggests that either

God made a mistake in His calculations
or that He made things unnecessarily complicated
or that He wasn't actually that bothered

I think we can discount the first point. If God does maths, He gets it right by definition, having invented mathematics in the first place

We can also discount the third option. If God was concerned enough to create the whole Universe, He would be paying attention when doing this little bit.

So we can conclude that God deliberately made things complicated. Now I could accept that, providing the Christians and Muslims will also reject the simplistic stories of creation as found in the Bible and the Koran. Will they follow my logic? Not a chance.

I started this as a little joke because Muslim1 made a mistake in saying the moon went round the earth in a day. But having developed it a bit, I think I have a serious point.

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ps watchmaker, good post about tidal lock of earth and moon, interesting thanks

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

I started this as a little joke because Muslim1 made a mistake in saying the moon went round the earth in a day.

My mind shudders at the thought of the tidal effects of a one day lunar orbital period upon the weather systems of the Earth.

However I'm not entirely sure what his original point was. I assumed that he had mistakenly phrased the tidal lock of the Earth and Moon, which is an example of exceptional order in our universe. Judging from his response to my post though that was clearly not what he was talking about.

If he had actually thought the Moon orbited once every day (A frightening thought) then I can understand seeing that as a "sign from god", it would be strange certainly.

So I am left utterly confused as to what Muslim1 was talking about.

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guidedog

he just mistakenly said the moon went round the earth once a day instead of once per lunar month.

But other than that, I agree, I have no idea what he's talking about.

I wonder if Mohammed had any views on the roundness or other wise of the earth, or on massive bursts of x spectrum radiation blasting a way clear for rocky earth like planets to form in the Crab Nebula?

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Muslim1 and newsoul

do you accept that God/Allah made things deliberately difficult by adjusting the rotational speed of the earth so that there are approximately 365.2422 earth days in one earth year?

And if so why?

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

do you accept that God/Allah made things deliberately difficult by adjusting the rotational speed of the earth so that there are approximately 365.2422 earth days in one earth year?

And if so why?

You call a four place decimal difficult? How does it make our everyday lives difficult? What, economically, is affected by the extra .2422 days in a year? We have February 29th every year divisible by four to compensate, and that's it. What's so difficult about an extra day every four years?

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Not at all difficult for me, because I use modern timekeeping. But God made things very difficult in the past when they didnt have caesium clocks.......

"The Christian calendar has years of 365 or 366 days. Years are divided into 12 months that have no relationship to the cycles of the moon. The year is also divided into approximately 52 weeks of 7 days each.

Two main calendars have been used by Europeans in the past two millennia: the Julian calendar and the Gregorian calendar. The difference between them lies in the way they approximate the length of the tropical year and their rules for calculating Easter.

The Julian calendar was introduced by Julius Caesar in 46 B.C. The Julian calendar was naturally adopted by the Christian successors of the Roman Empire. By about 700 C.E. it had become customary to count years from the starting point of the birth of Christ (later corrected by Johannes Kepler to 4 B.C.E.). But the equinox kept slipping backwards on the calendar one full day every 130 years. By 1500 the vernal equinox fell on the 10th or 11th of March and the autumnal equinox on the 13th or 14th of September, and the situation was increasingly causing unrest among the population.

The most important feast day on the Christian calendar is Easter, when the suffering, death, and resurrection of Christ are celebrated. The New Testament states that Christ's crucifixion occurred in the week of Passover. On the Jewish calendar, Passover was celebrated at the full moon of the first month (Nissan) of spring. In developing their own calendar (4th century C.E.), Christians put Easter on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox. If the equinox fell on the wrong date, then Easter might also be celebrated on the wrong day. Most other Christian observances (such as the beginning of Lent and Pentecost) are reckoned backward or forward from the date of Easter. An error in the equinox thus introduced numerous errors in the entire religious calendar. Something had to be done.

The Gregorian calendar, which is still in use today, was proposed by Rome to correct the errors in the Julian calendar, and was initially adopted in Catholic countries. It was constructed to give a close approximation to the tropical year, which is the actual length of time it takes for the Earth to complete one orbit around the Sun. The Gregorian calendar currently in worldwide use for secular purposes is based on a cycle of 400 years comprising 146,097 days, giving a year an average length of 365.2425 days. The Gregorian calendar is a modification of the Julian calendar in which leap years are omitted in years divisible by 100 but not divisible by 400. For example, the year 1900 was not a leap year (1900 is divisible by 100 but not divisible by 400), but the year 2000 was a leap year (2000 is divisible by 400).

The Julian calendar was changed to the Gregorian starting in 1582, at which point the 10-day difference between the actual time of year and traditional time of year was deleted. The switchover was bitterly opposed by much of the population, who feared it was an attempt by landlords to cheat them out of a week-and-a-half's rent. However, when Pope Gregory XIII decreed that the day after October 4, 1582 would be October 15, 1582, the Catholic countries of France, Spain, Portugal, and Italy complied. Various Catholic German countries (Germany was not yet unified), Belgium, the Netherlands, and Switzerland followed suit within a year or two, and Hungary followed in 1587.

Because of the Pope's decree, the reformed Julian calendar came to be known as the Gregorian calendar. However, the rest of Europe did not adopt the new calendar for more than a century.

The Protestant German countries adopted the Gregorian reform in 1700. By this time, the calendar trailed the seasons by 11 days. England (and the American colonies) finally switched to the new calendar in 1752, and Wednesday, September 2, 1752 was immediately followed by Thursday, September 14, 1752. This traumatic change resulted in widespread riots and people demanding "Give us the eleven days back!" "

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Where did all the muslims go?

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In the name of God (Allah), most Gracious, most Merciful.

agrote;

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You accept that different apes have different physical characteristics, right? Some apes are tall, some apes have better eyesight, some apes are smarter because their brains are slightly more developed, or whatever. Okay?

I agree with that.

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So apes, like every other species, are not all identical. Here is something else you should agree with: these physical differences between apes make some apes fitter for survival than others. An ape with better eyesight might find it easier to find food, a smart ape might be better at avoiding danger, and an ape with strong arms might be better able to defend himself. So generally the apes that survive are the fittest apes. Agreed?

I DISAGREE with your conclusion. It is almighty God (Allah) who determines which ape can survive or not. A smart ape can be unexpectedly attacked by an enemy, while a less smart one may be intact when living in a safe environment.

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I'm afraid you didn't. You backed up your claim that Allah authored the Qur'an, but you did not back up your claim that Muhammad was Illiterate. Whether or not he had anythign to do with qriting the Qur'an, I want to know how you knoe that Muhammad was illiterate - you haven't yet provided any evidence for this claim.

The Holy Qur'an is a very, very sufficient to prove this. All praise be to God almighty who revealed this extraordinary book.

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My belief is that everything in nature is beautiful, and that this beauty could have arisen by chance, since if by chance the universe was compeltely different, everything in it would still be natural, and would therefore still be beautiful.

No, chance cannot create anything. There must be a force having a supreme knowledge and wisdom to create, organize and manage everything in nature.

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I'm not sure about this, but couldn't the universe always be alternatign between expandign and contracting? Maybe the universe has always existed, but it has always expanded for a while, then contracted, then expanded, etc. Just a thought.

Just a thought, as you said, a ... wrong one. Indeed, the scientific community almost agree that a great explosion occurred (the 'Big Bang') and that the universe was formed as a result. In the Holy Qur'an, we have an important verse confirming it: " Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? " [Holy Qur'an 21:30]
And since this primary explosion, the universe is expanding. No real scientist has spoken of a contraction theory.

watchmakers guidedog;

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If he had actually thought the Moon orbited once every day (A frightening thought)

No. I never thought it.

Steve;

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I merely point out the absurdity of taking ideas written in books 2000 or 1400 years ago and treating them as if they are the absolute truth. Mankind has developed and progressed since the days of the old Testament and the Koran.

You will agree that we are living in the era of science and technology. OK, show me in the following link where the Holy Qur'an contradicts modern science:

Qur'an and modern science

You said that:

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I have read what you and Muslim1 have written possibly more carefully than anyone else on this thread

It means that you will carefully read the above link. I am waiting for your remarks.

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I wonder if Mohammed had any views on the roundness or other wise of the earth

Almighty God (Allah) said: "And the earth, moreover, hath He made egg shaped" [Holy Qur'an 79:30]

The Arabic word for egg here is 'dahaahaa' which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the earth.
Thus the Holy Qur'an correctly describes the shape of the earth, though the prevalent notion when the Holy Qur'an was revealed is that the earth was flat.

May the peace and blessings of God (Allah) be upon his prophet Muhammad.

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