Islamic Creationism

Well Michael, I have not read the Koran. And I'm not inclined to do so. Here is what the German scholar Salomon Reinach thought: "From the literary point of view, the Koran has little merit. Declamation, repetition, puerility, a lack of logic and coherence strike the unprepared reader at every turn. It is humiliating to the human intellect to think that this mediocre literature has been the subject of innumerable commentaries, and that millions of men are still wasting time absorbing it."

But if a test of memory guarantees eternal life, then I suppose I should start.

Steve,

I have always been crazy about knowing others cultures. I don't judge anything based on other people's views though. I used to be very stubborn and close-minded but it has been proved to me later that I was all that because of Ignorance. I was the kind that know nothing about a subject and still talk about it. Now, I prefer to know and analyse as much data as I find to come up with a final judgment using facts, and logic and when I don't see the facts I just don't make a final judgment until when I am completly satisfied with it. It is the only way to become more intelligent and see things better. A blind man can only guess what is in front of him but the more he caresses, touches , feels, the more he guesses right and when he gets back his vision he sees the truth.

I advise you to read the Quran and make your own judgment. I believe that any decent, hearthed man could see the truth in Quran, with the guidance of GOD of course. I have never expected to be who I am now, but I have reached peace in my soul and I am submitting to the Creator only and don't fear to say the truth even if I be in danger and this is the true Freedom.


Michael

I think it's unfair to compare religion with music. Religion and belief is a most vital issue in our life unlike music.[/quote]


Okay, no problem, I'll use a better example. Christians, you and I both believe (I assume), are wrong in at least some of their beliefs. Christianity's immense popularity does not change this - no matter how many millions of people believe something that isn't true, it is still not true. So it is meaningless to cite Islam's popularity as evidence for its truth. It doesn't matter how popular Islam is, that has nothing to do with whether it is actually true.

Michael, I'm pleased it works for you.

I wrote this on another thread and on re reading it I'm actually quite pleased with it so I'm going to post it here to give you an insight as to how I see things:-

What I dont understand is why people cant see that its so simple. Yes I did say simple.

When early man stopped being a hunter gatherer and started farming, for the first time he had both the time and the inclination to start pondering on the inexplicable. What happens if the sun doesn't come back in spring? Where does rain come from and is it going to come this year? They had no idea how to explain these things, but they were well aware of just how vulnerable they were to envirnomental factors over which they had no control. So as a way of explaining the inexplicable, and to give a name to something they hoped to appease, they told stories and invented gods. How many "rain gods" are there throughout the world?. The stories were elaborated and passed down and above all codified into a system which became the ruling polity. Much more recently, different groups at different times decide there could only be one God, and naturally they argued as to Who and What that meant. But it was still an attempt to explain the inexplicable. It was only in fairly recent times, since the Renaissance and Reformation in Europe and the development of 'science' as we know it today that we have made some outstanding progress in really understanding our environment and the Universe. Now we have the tools and the methodology to actually attempt some explanations of what was hitherto inexplicable. Science might be different from religion in many ways, but its still fulfilling the same basic function, except its far more effective and useful. We have not found the rain god or the sun god, but we have found sub atomic particles and neuton stars. And we still retain our sense of awe and wonder. For me, the most profound notion, and one that naturally leads back into the realms of religion is WHY is it that we CAN understand it? The answer to that of course is anything but simple.

Steve,

Thank you for the long posting.

What you don't know about me is that I am working in the research field and enjoying it. I have been a Civil Engineer for quit a while and worked for the Federal Highway Hydraulics Laboratory, one of the best LAbs in the world, so I know what you mean when you talk about Science. I can just give you a quick contradiction of what you were talking about and end up here.

Let's take a look at Pyramids that the Pharaos have built tousands of years back and let me inform you that the advanced technics that we have, STILL DO NOT able us to build pyramids the way they are built. You can ask any Architect or Civil Engineer and he/she will answer you on that and tell you that we still don't have the tools to imitate such a gigantesque and amazing thing. The Pharaos thought they were Gods that can kill whoever they want and bring back to life whoever they want, guess what !!! they are gone now cuz they have been eradicated from the existence.

Civilizations come to a Peak then crash, the history says that.

What you do not realize is that all of our findings are based on observation of the nature. We ,afterall investigate what already exist and use what is already here to create. WE USE OUR MINDS THAT CAME WITH MAN AS A TOOL AND ASSEMBLE WHAT WE FOUND IN EARTH TO SURVIVE OR ENJOY THE LIMITED LIFE.
We also use a lot of approached numerical methods, statistics and idioms to come up with APPROACHED SOLUTIONS to predict what could happen IF.....
What did I just called it ? APPROCHED SOLUTIONS.
a 0.0000000000001 is not a Zero and a 0.99954423211 is not a 1.

WE BASICALLY TRY TO GET TO THE TRUTH BUT WE CAN't AT 100% BECAUSE WE SCIENTISTS ALWAYS PRESENT A SOLUTION WITH A SECURITY FACTOR (Cf) OR A 2% , 5%,...etc MARGIN OF ERROR.

We are a great creation of God that is well designed to represent God in Earth but we are his Creation and God created us in Justice to live in his Justice on Earth but Some of us are not capable to do that and others are .That is what this life is all about. Some are blind and think Man is self-sufficient and is the GOD of itself, some think Jesus , a human being, is GOD and others stay firm and strong and apply in their life nothing but the Justice of GOD even if it goes against them because they fear none but GOD.

Look at our Planet from a mile or two, what you are gonna see? nothing but a big spherical stone that swims in the sky. What do you think we are good at ? building houses and building ? We only use soils provided to us!!! What did we achieve ? Nothing !!!! I think that life was more peaceful tousands of years back and even if it is not peaceful now ? what is a 100 years life period ?

Only researchers can tell you how very limited in everything we are and without GOD we are nothing because without his Kingdom we don't need to exist.

Michael

Michael

According to Muslim1

"Nothing, absolutely nothing occurs by chance. All what happens in the heavens and the earth is decreed by almighty God (Allah)"

So what are you doing using probability theory and statistical analysis?

If the bridge falls down its because Allah willed it, not because the reinforcing bars were the wrong grade of steel?

Its the acceptance of "fate" which I find most objectionable about Islam. You seem to think you are just helpless pieces in some great game that God is playing...if thats the case why bother about anything?

If you get your calculations wrong and the road surface breaks up, well its not your fault is it? It was willed by Allah.

I think this is a fundamental point. Such thinking has held back Islamic societies for hundreds of years. In Europe (after a struggle) we have broken free from the dead-hand of religious dogma.

It seems to me that people like you and Muslim1 want to take us backwards not forwards. You want to replace all that we know about the world with medievalism, myth and superstition. I'm sorry if these words sound harsh, but I think its time to speak out against this trend. Its time to actively stop such ideas spreading from the madrassas in Pakistan to the schools in Europe and America. Its time to say NO 2+2 does not equal 5, and it is not your right to preach such wrong ideas to our children, even if you sincerely and honestly believe that 2+2 does equal 5. We can measure the age of the earth by radioactive decay. Its not 6000 years old. Anyone who says it is is wrong, like anyone who teaches creationism as a fact is wrong. (Nice story perhaps but now we KNOW better).

Good on you Steve.

NewSoul, in my studies of history I have come across most of which you speak about in your post this a.m. Sure, there were great and wonderful things happening in the Muslim world during the centuries between the dark ages in Europe and the Renisance. But, there were also hedious goings on in the Muslim during this period. Marco Polo, in his travels across the east, told stories of what he saw on his return to Europe. Nobody believed much of what he reported happening. Good, or bad.

Also, you say that nations learn, and become experts in science, medicine, etc., only to crash.

Why did the Muslim world crash to ignorance in, you say, the 19th century? Since you are religious, then you must believe there is a reason, a cause, right?

What was happening with the Muslim women during these centuries? Please answer this question.

Because, nations do "fall," come crashing down. I, for one, would believe that "God" would love the people he/she created more than SCIENCE. How were the women treated during the centuries of which you speak in your post, when the Muslim world was so very advanced in science, math, medicine, you name it.

Doesn't the Muslim world, right now at this time, have a chance to recognize women as equal -- allow them to come and go as they wish, be educated, have fun, live, love and be merry, become politicians, conduct business - just as men?

You folks can't have your cake and eat it, too.

This is not saying we're real perfect here in the west, either. We are being forced, at least encouraged, to mix. Somebody better learn to make the most of it.

Sunlover, what do you mean by there in your west. Do you want to see my picture ? I am so ashamed that I look different when I get to any Mosque but I know that everybody treat me as equal as them. Thanks god I see many blonds in the Mosques and that helps me a lot to get over my shyness. If you read what the Quran says you will see that Women have more right than Man because of the way God created them. The Muslim man has to work hard and provide anything his wife ask for, as long as he can provide what she wants. And much more than that... Women at the time of Muhammad Pecae be upon him , were fighting side by side with man to protect their famillies. Women were businessman and women were scholars and scientists and all that. It is when Muslims stopped respecting the LAws of Islam that they collapssed , it is when they started partying, drinking, and the unjustice started against poor people and women that they have seen an end , it is when they were feeling so self sufficient and didn't need God in their lives that they have seen an end. I advise you to read and to seek the truth. I have had those questions too believe it or not.

Michael

NewSoul, I said "We are being forced, encouraged, to mix," but I refer to religion - fundamentalist Muslims leaving the middle east for Europe and America - not the mixing of people with differing colors of hair and eyes.

Thanks for descriptions of the Muslim world prior to 10th century regarding women, but I'll check that out myself instead of taking your word.

Sunlover,

You are very welcome my friend.

I have never asked anybody to take my words as true or that God loves me or loves you or try to impress anybody with anything to try to fool them. All I ask them to do is to take the first step and read. I have talked about my experiences with Religion and how I found the truth. I am not here to make anybody's decision and that is the Freedom of Will that everybody has. I strongly believe that without knowledge nobody can find the truth and it is a duty of everybody to seek knowledge and never make assumptions until all data available is investigated.

Islam is the Quran's message and Muhammad Peace be Upon Him was a his slave and messenger who had those qualities that the Quran is talking about to be a practical example for Muslims to try to apply the teachings of Quran as he was applying them on himself so what to read is Quran and the life of Muhammad (PBUH). I was very open minded when I read tons of websites online, some of them can mislead people on Islam but I kept on reading and investigated every single concern until finally I took a decision.

I have given the process of finding the truth years to come to a conclusion.

I am only here to help clarify things to others and nothing else since I have already had the same questions that people have about Islam. I have learned that many who claim they are Muslims, went so astray from the real Islam but there is still an overwhelming majority from the 1.5 billion Muslims that is true Muslims. It is the fastest growing religion in the world for a reason.


Michael

NewSoul, I am not interested in religion, but in history of my country, your country, all countries - in short, our world, the universe. Now and then there is a gap so I look to books, sometimes the internet but not as much.

I've already done my religious study, thank you, studying ALL the prophets, who say basically the same thing. But, it is people that are interesting, confusing, conflicting, but fascinating. People are simply wonderful and only wish to know what is expected of them. How they discover what is expected of them is not really anybody's business.

I live in a free country where anyone can be healthy, wealthy and/or wise should they want to be and try hard enough to be so. I am grateful and humbled. Fighting over religious differences is rather base, wouldn't you say?

Sunlover,

Where are you from cuz I am from the US if you didn't know.

Michael

All Praise be to God (Allah), mot Gracious, most Merciful.

Steve;

You completely ignored my comments to your answers to my six questions. Does it mean you agree with me? (I hope so)


I've already answered your claim about the origins of the Holy Qur'an.


All the prophets and messengers are highly regarded in Islam. Moses (peace be upon him) is one of the mightiest messengers of Allah.


It is logical to have similarities between Moses and Muhammad (peace be upon them), they both came with the message of Oneness of God (Allah) and worshiping him alone. Yet, the great difference between the two is that: Prophet Moses (peace be upon him) was sent only to the children of Israel and for a particular period. On the other hand, the message of prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is for eternity, and he was sent to the whole of humanity.
"We sent thee not, but as a Mercy for all creatures. " [Holy Qur'an 21:107]


You should not blindly follow what the so called scholar says about the Holy Qur'an, you have your own independent personality. Why don't you try reading a translation of the Holy Qur'an yourself?


God (Allah) make "cause" (reason) for every thing that happens. Example: It is because God (Allah) wants the rain to fall in a particular area that He made clouds as a "cause" for this to happen. Similarly in your example, the weakness of the reinforcing bars is a "cause" to achieve God (Allah)'s will.


You are, with all my due respect, completely wrong. When Islamic societies were applying Islam in their daily lives, they were on top of the world. You remember the dark ages? dark ages for whom? only for Europeans. At this particular era, Muslims were the strongest civilization on earth, why? they were applying Islam.
Islam is civilization.

sunlover


Here is a link that will show you how Islam dignified and uplifted women:

Islam uplifted women

Western talk of women's liberalization is nothing but a disguised form of exploitation of her body, degradation of her soul, and deprivation of her honour.
I have already posted this (the catastrophic situation of women in the west), and no single women or girl or even a man have answered me (it means that you all agree that women in the west are mistreated). That's why many women in west choose to revert to Islam to be uplifted and to have a dignified life.


God (Allah) knows best.

May the peace and blessings of God (Allah) be upon his messenger Muhammad.

One of the attributes of the Creator is that He was not created. God (Allah), the Creator says:
"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.
" [Holy Qur'an Chapter 112]

The Universe needs to have been created. Take for example the stars and examine their constituents. They are mainly formed of Hydrogen and Helium. Who putted Hydrogen and Helium together to form the stars? who made the extraordinary interstellar matter (plasma) in the Universe?

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Where did atoms come from? same place stars came from.
Where was that, nothing.

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First, your response recognizes that human beings are created, and that's good.
Secondly, the Creator is always superior to the 'created' in attributes, power, intelligence, design... Could you compare Evolutionary forces and DNA (which are Deaf, dumb, blind, with no intelligence...) to a human being?

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circular argument

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First I am glad to see that you maybe believe in God.
As for messenger Jesus (peace be upon him), we Muslims believe that the original book revealed to him (the Injeel) was from God almighty and said that God in One and Only.
I totally agree with you that today, Christians say that god is 3 in 1(trinity). That's because the Bible we have today is not exactly the Injeel revealed.

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not the injeel revealed eh? So what was it? A novel, the first best seller? A gripping yarn? Please be serious.

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In Islam, we are eliminating 'models of god' so that we worship the One and Only God who created everything and who is the Sustainer of the Universe. "And your Allah is One Allah. There is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. " [Holy Qur'an 2:163].
Quote:

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So your God is better than my God. Yawn. Heard it before. Complete and utter irrelevance.

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Who made that Instinct? Who established the Moral codes? What makes a person follow those rules?
As a Muslim, what makes me try my best to follow what is right, is the fact that I fear God (Allah), I know that there is an important "Day of Judgement" in which I'll be asked about all what I did in this life.
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As an intelligent human being what possible grounds have you to state categorically that there will be a day of judgement? You are brainwashed. Use the God given thought processes you possess.
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I know what will happen after death: All the human beings will be present in a "Day of Judgement" in which justice will be done to all the creations.
Honestly, Steve, do you think that criminals like Adolf Hitler or Josef Stalin took their deserved punishment in this life? In addition, many people were oppressed, killed and died without any rights. That's why God (Allah) will gather all the humanity in the "Day of Judgement" (Day here means 'long period of time') in which complete and perfect justice will be achieved. All praise be to God (Allah).

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You do eh? How? Brainwashed simplistic nonsense. Utter tripe. Dangerous and invidious weak thinking garbage. I attack your ideas muslim1 not you. And your ideas are totally and utterly misguided.

Thus I comment on your comments on my answers to your questions, if you are still with me.

NewSoul,

I take it you were born elsewhere and moved to the United States?

Not really,

But I lived in France for couple years

Michael