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Islamic Creationism

 
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2005 10:46 am
Muslim1, can't download the link sorry. I'll try and look at it again later.

You challenge me to find where on that site the Koran contradicts modern science. As I can't read it I cant do that for the moment. I could however post a whole host of links that give examples of contradictions within the Koran itself and with science, but as I cant read your link, that would be unfair.

So instead I would just like you to answer my simple question above. If for the purposes of the argument we accept that Allah made the earth and the sun, why did he adjust the rotational speed of the earth (on its axis and in its orbit) so that there isn't a whole number of days in a year? Why did he make it hard for primitive man, who didn't have access to accurate clocks?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2005 11:02 am
Regarding round earth flat earth, all the references I can find refer to Mohammed describing the earth as flat.

That's quite understandable (even if the Greeks knew it was round). I'm not blaming Mohammed, but today we know better, or at least some of us do.
0 Replies
 
muslim1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2005 12:52 pm
All praise be to God (Allah), most Gracious, most Merciful.

Steve;

Quote:
So instead I would just like you to answer my simple question above. If for the purposes of the argument we accept that Allah made the earth and the sun, why did he adjust the rotational speed of the earth (on its axis and in its orbit) so that there isn't a whole number of days in a year? Why did he make it hard for primitive man, who didn't have access to accurate clocks?


00 Agent Kid gave a nice answer when he said:

Quote:
You call a four place decimal difficult? How does it make our everyday lives difficult? What, economically, is affected by the extra .2422 days in a year? We have February 29th every year divisible by four to compensate, and that's it. What's so difficult about an extra day every four years?


In addition, primitive Man did not need to know time up to the minute and the second. It was sufficient to know the day and the night to survive at that particular era.

Quote:
Regarding round earth flat earth, all the references I can find refer to Mohammed describing the earth as flat.


Where are thoses references? Speaking is easy, proving is difficult.
I gave you a clear verse from the Holy Qur'an (the most important reference in Islam) which indicates that the earth is egg-shaped.

May the peace and blessings of God (Allah) be upon his prophet Muhammad.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2005 01:27 pm
if you read what I posted above you would begin to understand why a non-exact multiple of days in the year indeed caused a lot of problems.

And if you have access to a search engine such as Google and type in some words like "earth" "Koran" and "flat", you will find a large number of references which I have not posted to save your embarrassment.
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2005 07:50 pm
muslim1 wrote:
I DISAGREE with your conclusion. It is almighty God (Allah) who determines which ape can survive or not. A smart ape can be unexpectedly attacked by an enemy, while a less smart one may be intact when living in a safe environment.


You have presented no problems for the hypothesis of survival of the fittest there. A smart ape that dies as a result of an unexpected attack is not fit for survival in his environment. In that particular environment, in which attacks can happen unexpectedly, the fit apes would be the ones who could defend themselves if caught off guard. Jsut because a smart ape dies that doeas not mean that evolution is not occuring - smartness does not necessarily make an ape 'fit' - it entirely depends on the environment in which he lives. You mentioned a less smart ape surviving in a safe environment - a safe environment for such an ape would be an environment in which smartness is unecessary for survival, simpel as that. If the ape needed to be smart, he wouldn't survive. But he doesn't need to be smart, so in his environment he is 'fit'.

I should clarify that by 'fit' I mean, 'best suited to his environment.' You have denied that the fittest apes are the apes that survive - but I can't see why. You don't need to deny that, it doesn't contradict the assumptions of your religion. So why can't you accept survival of the fittest?

Quote:
Quote:
I'm afraid you didn't. You backed up your claim that Allah authored the Qur'an, but you did not back up your claim that Muhammad was Illiterate. Whether or not he had anythign to do with qriting the Qur'an, I want to know how you knoe that Muhammad was illiterate - you haven't yet provided any evidence for this claim.


The Holy Qur'an is a very, very sufficient to prove this. All praise be to God almighty who revealed this extraordinary book.


You're telling me a book that Muhammad wrote proves that Muhammad couldn't write?

Quote:
No, chance cannot create anything. There must be a force having a supreme knowledge and wisdom to create, organize and manage everything in nature.


You're just restating your opinion, you're not arguing. Can't you at least attempt to refute the argument I have given you? Here it is again:

Quote:
My belief is that everything in nature is beautiful, and that this beauty could have arisen by chance, since if by chance the universe was compeltely different, everything in it would still be natural, and would therefore still be beautiful.


What is wrong with that argument? Why can't chance have created the universe?

Quote:
Indeed, the scientific community almost agree that a great explosion occurred (the 'Big Bang') and that the universe was formed as a result. In the Holy Qur'an, we have an important verse confirming it: " Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? " [Holy Qur'an 21:30]
And since this primary explosion, the universe is expanding. No real scientist has spoken of a contraction theory.


I'm sure I remember Steven Hawkins talkign about a theory that before the big bang there was a universe that cotnracted to form the dense bit of matter that started the big bang. Or something like that. You are right to say that the big bang is the msot widely accepted theory. All i know is that nobody has proven that the universe is finite - it's still debated amongst physicists.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2005 01:57 am
agrote what you have to understand here is that Muslim1 and newsoul are no open to debate and argument as you or I understand it.

They have completely closed minds. Behind their posts is a simple message: that you and I are going to hell because we are not Muslim, but they are destined for paradise because they are.

Anything that is put to them that might challenge that basic premise is just denied, contradicted or ignored.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2005 04:26 am
From what I've heard from my Muslims friends, the Koran or Qu'ran is far more scientifically accurate than the Christian Bible.

However, from what translations I've read, it would seem that either all the scientifically incorrect lines are bad translations or they were not meant to be taken literally and are just there for poetic licence.

For example, this line:

Quote:
"And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres"

The Prophets: 21.33


That above quote seems to say that both the sun and the moon orbit around the Earth, though I admit it is open to interpretation and I guess it all depends on what is meant by "celestial spheres".

BTW, agrote, Steve, have you tried this translation: http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2005 05:10 am
"they were not meant to be taken literally"

The Koran is the "perfect and final word of God"

So saying things like that can get you and have got people in the past into a lot of trouble with the Islamists
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2005 05:19 am
So, words can be metaphorical, can they not?

(I don't believe I'm starting to argue with someone who shares my views on evolutionism)
0 Replies
 
muslim1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2005 12:50 pm
All praise be to God (Allah), most Gracious, most Merciful.

agrote

Quote:
I should clarify that by 'fit' I mean, 'best suited to his environment.'


I agree with this definition.
Yet, what I wanted to say is that it is God (Allah), and only God (Allah) who controls the lives of every living creature, so the survival of any animal is submitted to the will of God (Allah), may He be exalted in power.

Quote:
You're telling me a book that Muhammad wrote proves that Muhammad couldn't write?


what do you mean by evidence? History manuscripts? Ok, if I find any which are authentic I will present them. However, the Holy Qur'an is more than sufficient (as a proof) for me and for more than a billion people living today on earth.

Quote:
My belief is that everything in nature is beautiful


I have no problem with that.

Quote:
and that this beauty could have arisen by chance


Here, I completely disagree. I gave you my argument on that.

Quote:
since if by chance the universe was compeltely different


Completely different from what? from the universe we live in?

Quote:
everything in it would still be natural, and would therefore still be beautiful


I can't comment on this statement until you explain to me the condition in if.

Quote:
Why can't chance have created the universe?


Imagine that you meet a person, and you show him a new computer (suppose you hide the logo of the manufacturer). From its capacities and functionalities, he will agree that the manufacturer of this computer is a knowledgable, smart and intelligent engineer (note that he don't know the manufacturer).
Similarly, the universe is extraordinarly beautiful and organized. So, without knowing the one who created it, we know for sure that he is very wise, knowledgable, powerful...
Now, is chance powerful? is chance wise? is chance knowledgable?...
The answer is no.

Steve

Quote:
And if you have access to a search engine such as Google and type in some words like "earth" "Koran" and "flat", you will find a large number of references


Do you think that everything Google gives you is an evidence?
I'll help you, you want to prove that the Holy Qur'an describes the earth as flat, you have only to give me the corresponding references (verse and chapter).

Note that the 30th verse of the 79th chapter of the Holy Qur'an clearly describes the earth as egg-shaped.

Quote:
agrote what you have to understand here is that Muslim1 and newsoul are no open to debate and argument as you or I understand it.
They have completely closed minds.


We are not. We are truth seekers. But, If we present a proven statement that occurs in the Holy Qur'an or in the Sunna (tradition of the prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)), why don't you accept it?

May the peace and blessings of God (Allah) be upon his prophet Muhammad.
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2005 07:21 pm
muslim1 wrote:
agrote

Quote:
You're telling me a book that Muhammad wrote proves that Muhammad couldn't write?


what do you mean by evidence? History manuscripts? Ok, if I find any which are authentic I will present them. However, the Holy Qur'an is more than sufficient (as a proof) for me and for more than a billion people living today on earth.


Historical manuscripts would be good...

Quote:
Quote:
since if by chance the universe was compeltely different


Completely different from what? from the universe we live in?


Yes.

Quote:
Quote:
everything in it would still be natural, and would therefore still be beautiful


I can't comment on this statement until you explain to me the condition in if.


If the universe was made as it was by chance, then there was a chance that the universe could have been completely different - but that is not a problem since it would still be as natural and beautiful as this universe. So the beauty and order of the universe can be explained by chance, rather than a creator.

Quote:
Imagine that you meet a person, and you show him a new computer (suppose you hide the logo of the manufacturer). From its capacities and functionalities, he will agree that the manufacturer of this computer is a knowledgable, smart and intelligent engineer (note that he don't know the manufacturer).
Similarly, the universe is extraordinarly beautiful and organized. So, without knowing the one who created it, we know for sure that he is very wise, knowledgable, powerful...
Now, is chance powerful? is chance wise? is chance knowledgable?...
The answer is no.


Do you deny that anything occurs by chance?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2005 07:59 pm
Now youre toying with Intelligent Design Islam. Which(by the way) being the newest of the New phases of Trying to make believe that a deity createda world but had no further acts in forming it.

Welcome to Tennessee or Istanbul
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2005 03:39 pm
I said

"Muslim1 and newsoul are not open to debate and argument as you or I understand it.
They have completely closed minds."

and Muslim1 said

"We are not. We are truth seekers. But, If we present a proven statement that occurs in the Holy Qur'an or in the Sunna (tradition of the prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)), why don't you accept it?"


Good. Open to debate and seeking truth. Well so am I. But next sentence you say a statement in the koran is "proven". In fact you prejudge the question by talking about a "proven statement". WHAT PROOF?


This is again trickery and deception. I'm getting really tired of the lies and deceipt. You don't know how to argue logically or sensibly. You just contradict deny or ignore.

Go back to the middle ages and leave the rest of mankind alone to make progress.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2005 04:03 pm
nb Muslim1 and newsoul, skip these references, I'm only trying to upset you

"And the Earth - we have stretched it out like a carpet; and how smoothly have we spread it forth!" (Sura 51:48).

"He hath spread the earth as a bed, and hath traced out paths for you therein, and hath sent down rain from Heaven, and by it we bring forth the kinds of various herbs..." (Sura 20:55).

"It is He who hath made the earth level for you: traverse then its broad sides, and eat of what He hath provided. - Unto Him shall be the resurrection." (Sura 67:15).

50.7 "And the Earth, We have made it plain and cast in it mountains."

51.48 "And the earth, We have made it a wide extent."

Allah's Flat Earth and His Cosmos.

By Abul Kasem

Note: All Quran translations are by A. Yusufali

Hadith translated by Dr. M. Muhsin Khan



The Earth is flat and mountains are pegs

The Quran



· Earth spread out (like a carpet), mountains firm…15:19

[al-Hijr 15:19] And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable; and produced therein all kinds of things in due balance.

· God made earth like a carpet spread out…20:53

[Ta Ha 20:53] "He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky." With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others.

· The earth is like a carpet spread out…43.10

[az-Zukhruf 43:10] (Yea, the same that) has made for you the earth (like a carpet) spread out, and has made for you roads (and channels) therein, in order that ye may find guidance (on the way);

· Allah spread out earth and set mountains standing firm…50: 7

[Qaf 50:7] And the earth- We have spread it out, and set thereon mountains standing firm, and produced therein every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs)-

· Allah has spread out the earth…51:48

[adh-Dhariyat 51:48] And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: How excellently We do spread out!

· Allah made the earth a carpet…71:19

[Nuh 71:19] "'And God has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out),

· Allah made the earth as a wide expanse…78:6

[an-Naba' 78:6] Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse,

· The earth is made as a wide expanse…79:30

[an-Nazi`at 79:30] And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);

· Allah set up mountains firm lest the earth shake…16:15

[an-Nahl 16:15] And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves;

· Allah set on mountains high lest the earth shake with them…21:31

[al-Anbiya' 21:31] And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with them, and We have made therein broad highways (between mountains) for them to pass through: that they may receive Guidance.

Allah set mountains immovable…27.61

[an-Naml 27:61] Or, Who has made the earth firm to live in; made rivers in its midst; set thereon mountains immovable; and made a separating bar between the two bodies of flowing water? (can there be another) god besides God? Nay, most of them know not.

· Allah set mountains firm for earth not to shake…31:10

[Luqman 31:10] He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs.

· Allah put mountains standing firm…77:27

[al-Mursalat 77:27] And made therein mountains standing firm, lofty (in stature); and provided for you water sweet (and wholesome)?

· Allah put mountains as pegs…78:7

[an-Naba' 78:7] And the mountains as pegs

71.19 "And Allah has made for you the Earth a wide expanse."

78.6 "Have we not made the Earth an even expanse?"

79:27-30 "Are you the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built ? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; and He has made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morning thereof. And after that, He spread the Earth."

Conclusion.

The overwhelming view of the earth and the heavens in the Koran is consistent with the flat earth view. The Koran, therefore, is clearly in error in it's cosmology.

(Koran 18:86)
Till, when he [the traveller Zul-qarnain]
reached the setting-place of the sun,
he found it going down into a muddy spring...

(Koran 18:90)
Till, when he reached the rising-place of the
sun, he found it rising on a people for whom
WE had appointed no shelter from it.

Firstly, It is scientifically proven that the sun does not go down in a muddy spring.

Secondly, this seems to presuppose a flat earth, otherwise how can there be an extreme point in the West or in the East? It does not say, he went as far as possible on land in these directions and then observed the sun-rise or sun-set while standing at this shore. A sunrise there would be basically just the same as at any other place on this earth, at land or sea. It would still look as if it is setting "far away". It does say, that he reached THE PLACE where the sun sets and in his second journey the place where it rises.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2005 04:20 pm
and dont read this either

There are three basic categories of contradictions in the Qur'an:

1. Internal contradictions: Verses contradicting each other or the laws of logic
2. External errors: Verses contradicting the facts of history or science
3. Verses contradicting the earlier revelations


External Contradictions:

Introductory question

Science:
1. Solomon listening to ants? In Sura 27:18-19 Solomon overhears a "conversation of ants".
Is this possible based on our knowledge about the mode and complexity of ant communication?
2. The stars and the moon The Qur'an teaches that there are seven heavens one above the other [67:3, 71:15], and that the stars are in the lower heaven [67:5, 37:6, 41:12], but the moon is depicted as being in/inside the seven heavens [71:16], even though in reality the stars are much further away from the earth than the moon.
3. Qur'an and Science: Section Four in Dr. Campbell's book
4. Qur'an and Embryology
5. Can non-living matter think, feel and have a will?
6. The human embryonic development
7. The place of Sun rise and Sun set
8. The Seven Earths
9. Stars created to be thrown at devils?
10. Sun and moon are subject to man?
11. Mountains and Earthquakes
12. The impossible conversation
13. Solomon and the animals...
14. Shaking the trunk of the palm tree?
15. Thinking with the breasts?
16. All things are made in pairs? Sura 51:49 claims that everything is created in pairs. But this is not true! There are quite a number of things that have no counterpart and species where only one gender exists.

History:
17. The Qur'an Attacks ... Christianity?
18. Moses and the Samaritan?
19. The farthest Mosque?
20. Alexander the Great, a Muslim?
21. None else was named "John" before John the Baptist?
22. Two Pharaohs who crucified?
23. Burnt bricks in Egypt?
24. Were they utterly destroyed?
25. Jesus was not crucified?
26. The anachronistic title al-`Aziz given to Potiphar [with special gratitude to Islamic Awareness for making such a big deal about a minor point on a defunct web page, and forcing the issue into public attention.]

The Qur'an in Contradiction to the Earlier Revelations:

Ultimately, the strongest, most serious problem of the Qur'an is that it affirms the scriptures of the Jews and the Christians as authentic and true revelation from God (cf. what the Qur'an says about the Bible), while radically denying central aspects of their message, e.g. the core themes of sacrifice and atonement in the Torah, the crucifixion of Jesus, the deity of Jesus and even the mere messianic title "Son of God" for Jesus, the very nature of God, the fall and the sinfulness of man (*, *), necessity and means of salvation, etc.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2005 04:28 pm
but please read this

Cosmology and the Koran: A Response to Muslim Fundamentalists

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/islam.html
0 Replies
 
sunlover
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2005 05:37 pm
It wasn't that long ago that the Catholics, Jews, Protestants were arguing, then fighting, then hating one another.

Now we must listen to Christians and Muslims? Both seem assenine in one rhealm, perfectly sensible in another. They both have negative sides, positive and loving sides.

Just as I heard in my freshman Comparative Religions course so many years ago, there is a narrow thread of truth that travels through all the world's great religions.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 May, 2005 04:21 am
Whether the Koran, or the Bible, or any other religious text contains noble ideas is not the point here. Noble ideas stand on their own: they do not need "holy" texts to support them, they do not need miracles, or religious systems or supernatural entities, in order to possess their nobility. Wisdom is wisdom, from wherever it comes, and for all practical utility we should seek it where it is most carefully and correctly and usefully described and explained. I do not find this to be the case in any religious text. Philosophy has been far more successful at this, with a better grasp of the concept of explanation, definition, and logical analysis and argument. Thus, there is nothing religious texts have to offer that is not better said in philosophical texts. If, then, religious texts like the Koran are all mere human and ancient works of mortal and fallible piety, we should not be obsessed with them, or revere them as anything other than they are: the cultural dogmas of ancient peoples. Instead, we should seek wisdom in reason and logical argument and scientific investigation. Thus, I reject the Koran only because it is a human, fallible, primitive work of a bygone age, ineloquent and inappropriate for our times. It may have other salvageable virtues, in its moral teachings or literary quality or historical interest, but they do not interest me. I find my moral wisdom in better places, and have enough literature and history to occupy and entertain me. So, to all Muslim Fundamentalists out there, do not approach me with assertions of my irrationality. Examine yours instead.


....last words from the link above. WITH WHICH I THOROUGHLY CONCUR
0 Replies
 
NewSoul
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 May, 2005 11:39 am
Steve , stop copying propaganda against Islam to justify your Lies about Islam. Truely, you are misleading people who believe without reading the Quran.

The Quran is clear about issues such as the Earth is spherical, egg-shaped, round . I am gonna paste some to clearify your bad intentions. but if you wanna know more go to

http://www.answering-christianity.com/earth_rotation.htm

Read :

Allah Almighty said that the earth is "egg-shaped":

The sections of this article are:

1- Allah Almighty said that the earth is "egg-shaped".
2- The earth had gone through different stages and shapes since it was first created.
3- The roundness of the earth in the Noble Quran.
- The Arabic word "dahaha".
4- The proof that "dahaha" means "egg-shaped". My detailed rebuttal to the Christian "Answering Islam" article.
5- An excellent scientific explanation from brother Rached.
6- The changes to earth on the Day of Judgement.
7- Conclusion.

Allah Almighty in the Noble Quran talked in good details about the earth's past, present and future. He explained how it was created, the stages it went through, and what will happen to it when the Day of Judgement comes.



The earth had gone through different stages and shapes since it was first created:

It is important to know that Allah Almighty in the Noble Quran claimed that the earth had gone through different stages and shapes:

1- The earth was originally water, and life was originated from water:

"He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was over the waters - that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct. But if thou wert to say to them, "Ye shall indeed be raised up after death", the Unbelievers would be sure to say, "This is nothing but obvious sorcery!" (The Noble Quran, 11:7)"

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (The Noble Quran, 21:30)"

"It is He Who has created man from water: then has He established relationships of lineage and marriage: for thy Lord has power (over all things). (The Noble Quran, 25:54)"

"And God has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. God creates what He wills for verily God has power over all things. (The Noble Quran, 24:45)"

For more details and scientific quotes that prove the Noble Quran's Truthfulness, please visit Life originated from water.



2- Allah Almighty separated earth from the universe:

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (The Noble Quran, 21:30)"

This separation had caused the earth to totally change. Allah Almighty was preparing earth to become livable. All of its original characteristics had been changed.



3- The earth had gone through several shapings and formations to become livable:

The earth was split in fragments, stretched and flattened to become livable. After land was created from water on earth, Allah Almighty further spread out the earth and created mountains, roads, rivers, vegetations and animals:

"And We split the earth in fragments, (The Noble Quran, 80:26)"

"And when the earth is flattened out, (The Noble Quran, 84:3)"

"And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable; and produced therein all kinds of things in due balance. (The Noble Quran, 15:19)"

"By the Earth and its (wide) expanse: (The Noble Quran, 91:6)"

"And it is He who spread out the earth, and set thereon mountains standing firm and (flowing) rivers: and fruit of every kind He made in pairs, two and two: He draweth the night as a veil o'er the Day. Behold, verily in these things there are signs for those who consider! (The Noble Quran, 13:3)"

"(Yea, the same that) has made for you the earth (like a carpet) spread out, and has made for you roads (and channels) therein, in order that ye may find guidance (on the way); (The Noble Quran, 43:10)"

"It is God Who has made for you the earth as a resting place, and the sky as a canopy, and has given you shape- and made your shapes beautiful,- and has provided for you Sustenance, of things pure and good;- such is God your Lord. So Glory to God, the Lord of the Worlds! (The Noble Quran, 40:64)"

"It is He Who has made the earth manageable for you, so traverse ye through its tracts and enjoy of the Sustenance which He furnishes: but unto Him is the Resurrection. (The Noble Quran, 67:15)"

" 'And God has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out), (The Noble Quran, 71:19)"

"And at the Earth, how it is spread out? (The Noble Quran, 88:20)"

"Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse, (The Noble Quran, 78:6)"

"And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse); (The Noble Quran, 79:30)"

"Who has made the earth your couch, and the heavens your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewith Fruits for your sustenance; then set not up rivals unto God when ye know (the truth). (The Noble Quran, 2:22)"

"When angels take the souls of those who die in sin against their souls, they say: "In what (plight) Were ye?" They reply: "Weak and oppressed Were we in the earth." They say: "Was not the earth of God spacious enough for you to move yourselves away (From evil)?" Such men will find their abode in Hell,- What an evil refuge! - (The Noble Quran, 4:97)"

"And the earth- We have spread it out, and set thereon mountains standing firm, and produced therein every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs)- (The Noble Quran, 50:7)"

"It is He Who has spread out the earth for (His) creatures: (The Noble Quran, 55:10)"

"He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs. (The Noble Quran, 31:10)"

"And God has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. God creates what He wills for verily God has power over all things. (The Noble Quran, 24:45)"

"He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky." With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others. (The Noble Quran, 20:53)"

"And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves; (The Noble Quran, 16:15)"

"And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with them, and We have made therein broad highways (between mountains) for them to pass through: that they may receive Guidance. (The Noble Quran, 21:31)"

Please visit http://www.expanding-earth.org/. This site explains a new theory about the formation of earth and it proves the "Earth's expansion" and the formation of Oceans and Seas. This site was forwarded to me by brother Silent Wisdom; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.



The roundness of the earth in the Noble Quran:

Let us look at the following Noble Verse:

"30. And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse); 31. He draweth out Therefrom its moisture And its pasture; 32. And the mountains Hath He firmly fixed -- 33. For use and convenience To you and your cattle. (The Noble Quran, 79:30-33)"

I numbered the Noble Verses to make it easier for us to follow through the original Arabic text as follows:

"30. Wal-arda bada dhalika dahaha"
"31. Akhraja minha ma-aha wa maraaha"
"32. Wal-jibala arsaha"
"33. Mata-an lakum wa li an-aamikum"

There is a mistranslation: In Noble Verse 79:30, the Arabic word "dahaha" doesn't mean extended (to a wide expanse). The word literally mean formed in "round shape" or "egg shape" as clearly proven below in this article. Also, In Noble Verse 79:31, "ma-aha" was translated as "moisture" as shown above. "ma-aha" in Arabic literally means "its water". The more accurate translation is: "He draweth out Therefrom its water And its pasture".

The reason why I pointed out the mistranslation about "ma-aha" is because (1) It is wrong; and (2) It is important to know that earth was originally water as shown in Noble Verse 11:7 above, and when Allah Almighty tells us that He draweth out water from earth, then this further proves that the earth had gone through different shapings and forms.

It appears from Noble Verses 79:30-33 above that Allah Almighty created land and life on earth at the time when He caused for the earth to become round; when Allah Almighty "daha" the earth or "dahaha", which means "daha" it.



The Arabic word "dahaha":

As we clearly saw above in the article, Allah Almighty caused for the earth to completely change in shape, form and characteristics several times until it became what we know of it today. In fact, even when land was created on earth, it is believed by scientists (as I saw on TV) that during the time of the dinosaurs, our continents today were all joined together as one big piece of land or island surrounded by water from all directions. If you look at the map of the earth today, you would see that they perfectly match each others. The shape of the continents actually looks like they were all one piece of land that got divided up.

Very Important Note: My point from all of this is that it is quite possible that when Allah Almighty initially created land from the earth's water, the earth was flat, and the dinosaurs probably existed back then. When Allah Almighty "daha" the earth and made it "round-shaped" or "egg-shaped", it is possible that the splitting of the continents as we have them today was done due to the rounding of the earth.

If you take any flat surface and bend it backwards to form a ball out of it, then you will easily notice that its surface will get stretched and anything written or painted on that surface will look stretched. It is quite possible that the same happened to the earth and its contents when Allah Almighty "dahaha", or "daha" it.



The proof that "dahaha" means "egg-shaped":

The quotes and main points in this section were taken from http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/earth_flat.html. This section as well as the entire my entire article are a rebuttal to the link.

They wrote:

The Earth: Flat or Round?
What does the Qur'an Say?
Do they not look at the camels how they are made.
And the sky how it is raised high.
And the mountains how they are fixed firm.
And the earth how it is spread out?
(Wa ilal'ardi kayfa sutihat.)
-- Sura 88:17-20

Interpretation given in Al-Jalalein:

At the earth how it is spread out(*) (Arabic: sutihat): meaning it was stretched, so they can see in it a sign for the power of Allah ... and his saying sutihat makes it obvious that the earth is flat, and this is certified by Ulama' ash-shar'a (the shari'a theologians), not a globe as it is said by ahlul-hay'a (the laymen)." (Tafseer Al-Jalalein. printed in Damascus 1964. Al-Mallah Printshop and Bookstore)

(*) The word "sutihat" is from the root word "sataha".

Note: The commentators are well informed about the scientific conclusion that the earth is a globe, but the scientists are considered to be laymen in regard to understanding the meaning of the Qur'an. Because revelation has primacy over science, the Qur'an is the decisive basis for the commentators to insist that the earth is flat.



My response:

It is true that the word "sutihat" is from the root word "sataha" which usually means "to flatten". As I proved above in the article, the earth had gone through shapings and formations. It is quite possible that Allah Almighty in Noble Verses 88:17-20 was referring to the initial creation of the land where the earth was *possibly* flat.

It is also possible that Allah Almighty is telling us that the earth is both flattened and round at the same time. This is not a contradiction. To the normal human being, especially 1400 years ago, the earth was clearly flattened. It wasn't too round with steep slopes. No, it was and still is a flat livable surface for all creatures. As I showed above in the article, Allah Almighty created land, mountains, roads, rivers, vegetations and animals all to exist on earth.

So when Allah Almighty said that the earth "sutihat" in Noble Verses 88:17-20, it doesn't really prove that the earth is not round, because these Noble Verses are not the only ones talking about and describing the earth in the Noble Quran.

As the Tafseer Al-Jalalein says above: "At the earth how it is spread out(*) (Arabic: sutihat): meaning it was stretched..." The stretching and the expanding of the earth to make it livable is what Allah Almighty referred to when He said the earth "sutihat".

Let us look at an example of Allah Almighty claiming that He expanded the earth in the Noble Quran:

"And it is He who spread out the earth, and set thereon mountains standing firm and (flowing) rivers: and fruit of every kind He made in pairs, two and two: He draweth the night as a veil o'er the Day. Behold, verily in these things there are signs for those who consider! (The Noble Quran, 13:3)"

"spread out the earth" here in Arabic is "madda al-ard", which literally means "expand the earth" or "spread out the earth".

"He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky." With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others. (The Noble Quran, 20:53)"

"made for you the earth like a carpet spread out" here in Arabic is "Ja-ala lakum Al-ard mahda". "mahda" literally means a flat road, or a road that is easy to walk on. It is similar to our highways today. They are easy to drive on.

"And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable; and produced therein all kinds of things in due balance. (The Noble Quran, 15:19)"

"And the earth We have spread out" here in Arabic is "Wa Al-ard maddadnaha". "maddadnaha" literally means "We expanded" or "We spread out". It is derived from the root word "madda", which means "to stretch" or to "to expand" or "to spread out".

Again, please visit http://www.expanding-earth.org/. This site explains a new theory about the formation of earth and it proves the "Earth's expansion" and the formation of Oceans and Seas.



They wrote:

Furthermore, the Qur'an says:

And after that He spread the earth.
(Wal'arda ba'da dhalika da-ha-ha.)
-- Sura 79:30

Again, let us consult Tafsir Al-Jalalein:

That is: "Basataha" as it was created before heaven without "Dahoo".

We see that Al-Jalalein us emphasizing the issue of "flattening". The interpreters are saying: "That is, He flattened it since it was not made flat before heaven was created."

Reading the context of this aya, Sura 79:27-33, the message of the Qur'an seems to be: Originally the earth was not flat (but somehow crumbled up?). After first creating the heaven over it (see 79:28-29), Allah flattened the earth (to make it inhabitable: ("A provision for you and for your cattle" 79:33).



My response:

Notice how the interpretation of the Noble Quran, Tafsir Al-Jalalein, says: "That is: 'Basataha' as it was created before heaven without 'Dahoo'. " It is suggesting that Allah Almighty "basata" the earth (flattened it) before He "dahaha".

Very Important Note: Notice in Noble Verse 79:30, Allah Almighty says in Arabic "bada dhalika", which literally means "after wards" or "after that" or "after the event finished", etc... This clearly and unquestionably means that Allah Almighty "daha" the earth last. The "Dahoo" of the earth came "bada dhalika" (after wards); after the earth "sutihat".

Again, please read the "The earth had gone through different stages and shapes since it was first created" section above to see the clear proofs from the Noble Quran that the earth had gone through several stages and formations.



They wrote:

COMMENT:

Udhi'ya or Udhu'wa, are two names for the egg of the ostrich. The verb Da'ha (Ydahoo: present tense) is not derived from Udhi'ya or Udhu'wa, because names are derived from the "verb of origin" (fi'l al masdar), and the verb of origin is not derived from a name. The verb of origin is "dahawa" from which the verb "da'ha" and "yadhoo" are derived, and so is the name of the noun denoting the egg. The verb "da'aha" does not mean "kaw'wara" (made round) or made something in the shape of an egg, whether it is an ostrich egg or a chicken's egg. As a matter of fact, the verb "da'ha" means the complete opposite to the concept of the roundness. Here is what "Al-munjid fil'lugha wal'alam" has to say:

"da'ha da'hwan ... God `da'ha' earth that is `basataha'."
And that is exactly what Al-Jalalein has said.
"da'ha idhiwa'an: `inbisatan'." (that is: flattening)
"al-udh'y, al-idhi'y, al-udhu'wa, al-udhi'ya: The egg of the ostrich in the sand."
We must pay attention to what Al-Munjid is saying here: "The egg of the ostrich `in the sand'" and the following is the reason for this expression:

When the female ostrich fears a danger threatening her egg, she immediately digs into the sand to hide the egg, then "tadhoo" (flattens) the earth above it, so that it would not be seen by the vultures of the air who are always in search of such a delicacy for their next meal. Therefore, the word "al-udhu'wa" is used as a name of the ostrich egg since it is something (with the sand) flattened (over it). That is where the name came from. The Arabic dictionary never states that the verb "da'ha" means "made round" or "made in the shape of the egg of an ostrich".



My response:

The Christian "Answering Islam" team are now contradicting themselves and are beginning to show their signs of weakness and desperation. Notice how at first they agree with the Tafsir Al-Jalalein interpretation by saying:

"Udhi'ya or Udhu'wa, are two names for the egg of the ostrich."

Udhiya and Udhuwa are not root words. Udhiya is simply a singular of Dahyyaat. Udhuwa is the same word as Udhiya. Also, Deheya or Deheyya also means Udhiya. In the Arabic grammar, depending on the position of the word in the sentence, we sometimes substitute the pronunciation of the "y" with a "w". Udhiya and Udhuwa are not two different words. They are the same word. The Arabic word "dahaha" is derived from the root word "dahya" which literally means "egg". Udhuwa is the reference to "dahya". In Arabic, words that are referenced are sometimes written differently. Udhuwa and "dahya" are written differently, but they mean the same word.

A good example for this is "udhooka" and "duhka". "duhka" means "a laugh". If I say to someone "let me give you a laugh", I tell him "daani uteeka udhooka". "udhooka" is the reference word for "duhka".

Notice that I didn't write "daani uteeka duhka". No, I wrote "daani uteeka udhooka". Udhooka is the reference word for "duhka". It is grammatically WRONG to not use "udhooka" in the proper Arabic grammar.

The same grammar principle applies to "dahya" and "Udhiya" or "Udhuwa" or "Deheya" or "Deheyya" reference words that they gave.

As to "yadhoo" and not "Ydahoo" (as they mistakenly wrote it), it is completely irrelevant, because "yadhoo" is an action and not a definition. It is the present tense of "dah", which is derived from the root word "dahya".

Important Note: Notice how the word "egg" or "egg of the ostrich" in Arabic is close enough to the Noble Quran's "dahaha". The Christian "Answering Islam" team are simply trying to divert the subject and deceive the reader in a desperate attempt to convince him that "dahya (egg)" is not related to the Noble Quran's "dahaha".

They shot themselves in the foot:

They said: "We must pay attention to what Al-Munjid is saying here: "The egg of the ostrich `in the sand'" and the following is the reason for this expression:

When the female ostrich fears a danger threatening her egg, she immediately digs into the sand to hide the egg, then "tadhoo" (flattens) the earth above it, so that it would not be seen by the vultures of the air who are always in search of such a delicacy for their next meal. Therefore, the word "al-udhu'wa" is used as a name of the ostrich egg since it is something (with the sand) flattened (over it)."

I am glad that they linked the ostrich's egg with the hiding of the egg under flat sand. This clearly proves that Allah Almighty has indeed used THE BEST ARABIC WORD to describe the whole situation of the earth:

1- The earth is round like the ostrich's egg.

2- The earth is flat like the flat sand covering the egg from predators. Isn't the earth flat for us and round astronomically both at the same time?

Even though they purposely avoided the Arabic word "dahya" which means a single "egg" and instead went with awkward reference words like "al-udhu'wa" (as they wrote it) in a desperate attempt to prove that the Noble Quran's "dahaha" has nothing to do with an egg (dahya) and "al-udhu'wa".

Again, please visit http://www.expanding-earth.org/. This site explains a new theory about the formation of earth and it proves the "Earth's expansion" and the formation of Oceans and Seas.



Muslim Scientists during the 14 century (800 years after Islam) concluded that the earth is round and moving in space:

Please visit The earth is round according to Islam.



They wrote:

Other verses in the Qur'an stated that earth is flat using other words. All of these words are interpreted as "flat" and none of them has been interpreted as round.

We read in Sura 96:6 (Ash'shams): "Wal'ardu wa ma ta'haha".
The word "Tahaha" is interpreted in Tafsir Al-Jalalein as "He made it flat". In Munjid Al-lugha Wal'alam, the word "Taha" is also interpreted as "to flatten or to stretch". Then, the noun "At'taha" is interpreted as "a flat part of the earth". Then, Al-Munjid gives a sentence as an example to confirm the meaning of "taha" as "to make a certain thing flat".



My response:

Noble Verse 96:6 actually says: "Nay, but man doth Transgress all bounds," You gave the wrong reference for the Noble Verse. Anyway, all of the Noble Verses that deal with this issue of spreading out the earth and stretching it had been covered in the "The earth had gone through different stages and shapes since it was first created" section above.

Again, please visit http://www.expanding-earth.org/. This site explains a new theory about the formation of earth and it proves the "Earth's expansion" and the formation of Oceans and Seas.



They wrote:

In Sura 15:19 (Al-Hajar), we read: "wal'arda madadnaha wa'alkayna feeha rawasi".
The word "madadnaha" is from the verb "madda", which is a very simple and easy word to understand. Not even a little Arabic child would use this word to describe the shape of a watermelon or a ball. It is the most simple way to describe something flat.



My response:

Actually your ignorance is what's stopping you from comprehending and appreciating Islam. "madadnaha" literally means "We stretched it out". I don't know where exactly you're getting your nonsense from about the earth being flat. I think you should look around you and see how flat the earth feels to you. If you do that, then you'll appreciate what Allah Almighty is Saying in the Noble Quran.



They wrote:

If Muhammad or the author of the Qur'an really had known that the earth is round, and had wanted to mention this fact in the book, he could have used a more simple word in Arabic to put an end to this puzzling issue. We have no doubt that Muhammad was aware of the existence of other words in the Arabic language that can describe the shape of something round. In fact, we read in sura 81:1 (At'Takweer - meaning: Rounding!):

"Itha'sh-shamsu kuwirat": "When the sun is folded up."

In this verse, Muhammad is predicting that "the sun shall be folded up" or "shall become rounded" (which would be a better translation). This means first of all that Muhammad believed that the sun is also flat and that it will become round when the hour comes. And this also means that he knows that there is a better word to describe a round shape. Therefore: Why he didn't use this term to to spare the Muslims this confusion?

Yes, Muhammad did indeed believe that the sun is flat as Al-Jalalein comments on this verse by stating: "`kuwirat' that is `lufifat' i.e. folded up and its light taken."



My response:

It is important for you know that Allah Almighty in the Noble Quran didn't just speak to the Bedouin Arabs 1400 years ago in His Holy Revelation. He spoke to all of Mankind for all times and all places. Let me give you few examples:

1- Scientists proved that the universe is expanding. Allah Almighty too said in the Noble Quran that He is expanding the Universe.

2- Allah Almighty spoke to the Computer Age today with His number 19 Miracle in the Noble Quran.

3- Allah Almighty spoke about how mountains prevent the earth from shaking. Science proved today that mountains do prevent the earth from shaking while rotating around itself.

For more topics and details, please visit Science in Islam and the Noble Quran.

Anyway, to answer your question about why did Allah Almighty use the word "dahaha" in Noble Verse 79:30, well it's because the word is the most precise out of all. It describes the roundness and the flatness of the earth at once. Allah Almighty is talking to the astronomers and science in this Noble Verse. As I showed above, Muslim scientists in the 14th century came to the conclusion that the earth is round and it is swimming in the space like the other planets.

As to the sun in Noble Verse 81:1, I suggest for you to take some Arabic courses, because "kuwwirat" means to fold up. The Noble Verse is saying that the sun will be folded from outside to inside, where no light from it shall emerge again. "Takweer" in Arabic also means "folding up". You are obviously mixing up and confusing the modern slang Arabic word "Kura" which means "ball" to the Noble Quran's "kuwwirat" which existed long before 1400 years ago when the Noble Quran was revealed.

You said: "Yes, Muhammad did indeed believe that the sun is flat as Al-Jalalein comments on this verse by stating: "`kuwirat' that is `lufifat' i.e. folded up and its light taken." "

No where in the Noble Quran or the Sayings of Prophet Muhammad do we see any mention of the sun being flat. Again, you badly mixed the modern word "kura" for ball with the very old Arabic words "kuwwirat" and "takweer" (thousands of years before 1400 years ago when the Noble Quran was revealed). Your interpretation about the sun being flat in Islam is false.

As to "lufifat", it means to "wrap around", or to "wrap up". Allah Almighty will not wrap Himself around the sun to turn off it's light. This word would not be appropriate to use in the Noble Quran because it wouldn't be accurate. Again, you made an error in your Arabic interpretations, grammar and vocabularies.

Please visit The Big Bang Theory and the Cosmic Crunch in the Noble Quran to see how it is possible for the sun to lose its light as Allah Almighty said in the Noble Quran when the Hour comes.



An excellent scientific explanation from brother Rached:

The following is an email I received from brother Rached; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.

Salaamu Aleikum brother,

It has been a while since I emailed you. I was reading your article regarding the Earth being egg-shaped and had a thought I wished to share with you.

Noble verses 13:3, 20:53 and 15:19 in which God Almighty says that He has spread out the Earth could very well be referring to the spreading out of the continents. Geologists and archaeologists believe that the Earth's land-masses were once a single land mass they call Pangea, the super-continent. Over time, the land was stretched apart into different continents.

This gradual movement of tectonic plates is also the cause of many mountain ranges. Is it any surprise that God mentions the mountains right after He mentions the "stretching" or "spreading out" of the land?

As for the "flattening" of the Earth, it should be noted that the fact that the Earth's diameter is longer at the equator than between the poles is caused by Earth's rotation (At least that appears to be conventional wisdom at this time). If the Earth were to start spinning faster, it would theoretically get "flatter" or in other words, its ellipsoid properties would be more pronounced.

When God Almighty created the alternation between night and day, He basically caused the Earth to start rotating on its axis, which would have "flattened" the planet due to the centrifugal force. The degree to which the Earth now appears "flattened" at the poles is barely noticeable. However this does nothing to change the fact that at some point, when rotation was initiated, there was indeed a "flattening". And this flattening (as well as the stretching mentioned above) both occurred AFTER the Earth was created.

Another possible interpretation of the earth's "flattening" is erosion, which has smoothed and flattened many of the early Earth's jagged and rugged features.

I base the above on nothing more than my own layman's understanding and some cursory research into the question. Allah Almighty knows best. The Truth is His alone, and my errors are my own.

Wassalaam,
Rached

From me, Osama Abdallah: Again, please visit http://www.expanding-earth.org/. This site explains a new theory about the formation of earth and it proves the "Earth's expansion" and the formation of Oceans and Seas.



The changes to earth on the Day of Judgement:

Let us look at what Allah Almighty said about the future of the earth in the Noble Quran:

"One day the earth will be changed to a different earth, and so will be the heavens, and (men) will be marshalled forth, before God, the One, the Irresistible; (The Noble Quran, 14:48)"

"One Day We shall remove the mountains, and thou wilt see the earth as a level stretch, and We shall gather them, all together, nor shall We leave out any one of them. (The Noble Quran, 18:47)"

"At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, (The Noble Quran, 19:90)"

"No just estimate have they made of God, such as is due to Him: On the Day of Judgment the whole of the earth will be but His handful, and the heavens will be rolled up in His right hand: Glory to Him! High is He above the Partners they attribute to Him! (The Noble Quran, 39:67)"

"God created the heavens and the earth for just ends, and in order that each soul may find the recompense of what it has earned, and none of them be wronged. (The Noble Quran, 45:22)"

"The Day when the Earth will be rent asunder, from (men) hurrying out: that will be a gathering together,- quite easy for Us. (The Noble Quran, 50:44)"

"Do ye feel secure that He Who is in heaven will not cause you to be swallowed up by the earth when it shakes (as in an earthquake)? (The Noble Quran, 67:16)"

"And the earth is moved, and its mountains, and they are crushed to powder at one stroke,- (The Noble Quran, 69:14)"

"One Day the earth and the mountains will be in violent commotion. And the mountains will be as a heap of sand poured out and flowing down. (The Noble Quran, 73:14)"

"Nay! When the earth is pounded to powder, (The Noble Quran, 89:21)"

"When the earth is shaken to her (utmost) convulsion, (The Noble Quran, 99:1)"

"And the earth throws up her burdens (from within), (The Noble Quran, 99:2)"

It appears from the above Noble Verses that at the Day of Judgement, Allah Almighty will shake the entire earth, flatten it by crushing and flattening its mountains, open it to swallow up all of the creatures on it, and everything on earth will be in violent commotion.

Please visit The Big Bang Theory and the Cosmic Crunch in the Noble Quran.
0 Replies
 
NewSoul
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 May, 2005 11:45 am
STEVE

You didn't even have to mention that issue because now whoever is going to read here will KNOW that ONLY the QURAN was right about the ROUNDNESS OF THE EARTH.
That is a Miracle that make the QURAN an amazing book and can tell that it is from GOD.

I am so sorry to disappoint you STEVE. The more you try to fight Islam the more the truth will show to others. I garantee you that you are not misleading people with your ridiculous LIES but you are guiding them to the right path.
0 Replies
 
 

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