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Islamic Creationism

 
 
muslim1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 May, 2005 12:12 pm
All praise be to God (Allah), most Gracious, most Merciful.

Wolf_ODonnell

Quote:
From what I've heard from my Muslims friends, the Koran or Qu'ran is far more scientifically accurate than the Christian Bible.

However, from what translations I've read, it would seem that either all the scientifically incorrect lines are bad translations or they were not meant to be taken literally and are just there for poetic licence.

For example, this line:

Quote:
"And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres"

The Prophets: 21.33


That above quote seems to say that both the sun and the moon orbit around the Earth, though I admit it is open to interpretation and I guess it all depends on what is meant by "celestial spheres".

BTW, agrote, Steve, have you tried this translation: http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/?


Thank you for your interesting post.

The Arabic word used in the above verse is 'yasbahoon' . This word is derived from the word 'sabaha'. It carries with it the idea of motion that comes from any moving body. If you use this word for a person on the ground, it would not mean that he is rolling but would imply that he is walking or running. If you use this word for a person in water, it would not mean that he is floating but would imply that he is swimming.
Similarly, if you use the word 'yasbah' for a celestial body such as the sun, it would not only mean that it is flying through space but would also mean that it is rotating as it goes through space. Most school textbooks have now incorporated the fact that the sun rotates about its axis. The rotation of the sun about its own axis can be proved with the help of an equipment that projects the image of the sun on the top of a table, so that one can examine the image of the sun without being blinded. It is noticed that the sun has spots which complete a circular motion once every 25 days i.e. the sun takes approximately 25 days to rotate round its axis.
The sun travels through space at roughly 240 km per second, and takes about 200 million years to complete one revolution around the centre of our Milky Way Galaxy.
"It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law). " [Holy Qur'an 36:40]
This verse mentions an essential fact discovered only recently by modern astronomy, i.e. the existence of the individual orbits of the sun and the moon, and their journey through space with their own motion. The ?'fixed place' towards which the sun travels, carrying with it the solar system, has been located precisely by modern astronomy. It has been given a name, the Solar Apex. The solar system is indeed moving in space towards a point situated in the constellation of Hercules (Alpha Lyrae) whose exact location is now firmly established. The moon rotates around its axis in the same duration that it takes to revolve around the earth. It takes a lunar month to complete one rotation.
One cannot help but be amazed at the scientific accuracy of the Qur'anic verses. Should we not ponder over the question: "What is the source of knowledge contained in the Qur'an?"

agrote

Quote:
Do you deny that anything occurs by chance?


Nothing, absolutely nothing occurs by chance. All what happens in the heavens and the earth is decreed by almighty God (Allah), may He be exalted in his power.

May the peace and blessings of God (Allah) be upon his prophet Muhammad.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2005 04:27 am
"Nothing, absolutely nothing occurs by chance. All what happens in the heavens and the earth is decreed by almighty God (Allah)"

So you deny probability theory, quantum mechanics and presumably a large part of mathematics itself?

Are you saying a £10 win on the lottery was decreed by Allah?

That if you pray very hard you will win more?

Conversely that the (mostly Muslim) victims of the recent tsunami disaster were singled out by Allah for death?

This is absolutely ridiculous.

If you deny the reality of chance and probability, then it just confirms my belief that Islam is backward- looking, and probably explains why Islamic countries have failed to develop.

It would also explain why Islam bans gambling, as praying for a win can be shown to be completely useless.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2005 04:52 am
I rather wonder how it is that the Almighty could possibly be exalted in his power.

Isn't that rather the extreme example of gilding the lily?
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2005 07:10 am
Muslim1, yes, indeed, the verses can be interpreted as having the meaning you explained in your post.

However, that is just one interpretation. It can also simultaneously be interpreted as saying that the sun rotates around the Earth, due to its vagueness.

May I also point out that the Silk Route runs through a few Muslim countries. It is quite possible that astronomical findings from China and India found their way to the Middle East.

Those passages in the Quran merely imply to me that Muslims are clever people who were open to ideas and didn't figuratively put their heads into the sand whenever something new came along.

Either way you slice it, its a compliment to Muslims.

steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Islam is backward- looking


Contrarily, there are things in Islam that are quite logical.

For example, in the Bible, it says that it is wrong to get drunk. In Islam, it is wrong to drink alcohol.

Sir Richard Francis Burton, who was quite fascinated with Arabic life and Islam, found out that before the introduction of Islam, the sole purpose of drinking alcohol amongst Arabs was to get drunk. Therefore, Islam banned the drinking of alcohol, for the obvious detrimental sides of being drunk and also because Islam is based on Judaism which states that getting drunk is forbidden.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2005 07:54 am
I dont deny there are some aspects of Islam which are logical. Prohibiting eating certain foods that go bad quickly in a hot climate is one. But then it would be even more logical to invent a refrigerator. Alternatively it would make sense to relax dietary restrictions in the light of modern techniques for handling food.


But its is quite illogical to deny oneself perfectly wholesome food for no other reason that it says so in a book written 1400 years before refrigerators were commonplace.

Just another example of Islam failing to adapt to modern circumstances.

[Of course some Christians and Jews can be equally daft]
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agrote
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2005 07:54 am
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
For example, in the Bible, it says that it is wrong to get drunk. In Islam, it is wrong to drink alcohol.


Drunkenness is unhealthy - it damages the liver, causes minor brain damage, increases the risk of cancer, etc. But research suggests that drinking a small amount of alcohol is better for the body that drinking no alcohol at all, so wouldn't it be more logical to just ban drunkenness but not ban the drinking of a healthy amount of alcohol?
0 Replies
 
muslim1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2005 08:32 am
agrote:
Quote:
But research suggests that drinking a small amount of alcohol is better for the body that drinking no alcohol at all


Would you mind mentioning who did that research and when?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2005 08:42 am
Muslim1,

perhaps it is unreasonable of me to expect a response from you but do you stick by your statement that

"Nothing, absolutely nothing occurs by chance. All what happens in the heavens and the earth is decreed by almighty God (Allah)"

or does silence on your behalf imply that you didn't really mean it?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2005 08:46 am
Glad to see that someone else is interested in Richard Francis Burton--an absolutely fascinating man, largely unknown, who added a wealth of literature and understanding of what used to be known as the Orient to the western cultural cannon. Making the hajj was an act of bravado, but quite in keeping with the totality of his life and career.

Without Burton, it is doubtful that The Thousand Nights and the One Night would ever have risen above an obscure eastern curiosity translated from Farsi into French. If for no other reason, Burton deserves to be remembered along side of Fitzgerald for introducing the west to classics of Farsi literature.
0 Replies
 
muslim1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2005 09:42 am
Quote:
perhaps it is unreasonable of me to expect a response from you but do you stick by your statement that

"Nothing, absolutely nothing occurs by chance. All what happens in the heavens and the earth is decreed by almighty God (Allah)"

or does silence on your behalf imply that you didn't really mean it?


Of course I stick to my previous statement! Did you have any doubt?
I do not fear anyone when saying the truth.
Nothing, absolutely nothing occurs by chance. All what happens in the heavens and the earth is decreed by almighty God (Allah).
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2005 10:33 am
muslim1 wrote:
agrote:
Quote:
But research suggests that drinking a small amount of alcohol is better for the body that drinking no alcohol at all


Would you mind mentioning who did that research and when?


Gladly. Here's one study by Thun et al, from 1997:

Alcohol consumption and mortality among middle-aged and elderly U.S. adults.


And here's a good website the brings together lots of evidence that moderate drinking is beneficial:

Alcohol and Health.
0 Replies
 
muslim1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2005 11:25 am
All praise be to God (Allah), most Gracious, most Merciful.

agrote;
Quote:
Gladly. Here's one study by Thun et al, from 1997:

Alcohol consumption and mortality among middle-aged and elderly U.S. adults.


And here's a good website the brings together lots of evidence that moderate drinking is beneficial:

Alcohol and Health.


Thank you for both links.

Yet, can we define the term 'moderate drinking'? what is maximum limit of alcohol to drink in order not to exceed 'moderate drinking'? is 'moderate drinking' for a person A the same as a person B? does the type of wine affect the 'moderate drinking' threshold?
Would it be comfortable for a person to drink alcohol when there is a (big) eventuality that he gets drunk?
Your first link states that "46,000 died during nine years of follow-up". I wonder, why should a person kill himself (by drinking alcohol) when there are many, many other drinks (juices...) that he can take instead?

As for the benefits of alcohol, I know hundreds of people who have never tasted a single drip of wine, and they are extraordinarily healthy. Those persons do not need the 'benefits' mentioned in your two links.

God (Allah) almighty says in the Holy Qur'an:
"O ye who believe! intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination of Satan's handiwork; eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper."
[Holy Qur'an 5:90]

May the peace and blessings of God (Allah) be upon his prophet Muhammad.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2005 12:04 pm
agrote wrote:
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
For example, in the Bible, it says that it is wrong to get drunk. In Islam, it is wrong to drink alcohol.


Drunkenness is unhealthy - it damages the liver, causes minor brain damage, increases the risk of cancer, etc. But research suggests that drinking a small amount of alcohol is better for the body that drinking no alcohol at all, so wouldn't it be more logical to just ban drunkenness but not ban the drinking of a healthy amount of alcohol?


Actually, alcohol increases your change of colon cancer.

The study that shows drinking a glass of red wine a day is good for the heart, isn't talking about the alcohol content. It's the antioxidant content provided by the grapes used to make the wine.

Also, another study showed that non-alcoholic beer is good for you, not alcoholic beer.

Are you sure you didn't misread the study?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2005 01:14 pm
Muslim1 wrote:

"Of course I stick to my previous statement! Did you have any doubt?
I do not fear anyone when saying the truth.
Nothing, absolutely nothing occurs by chance. All what happens in the heavens and the earth is decreed by almighty God (Allah)."

OK thanks for the response. What you must understand is that I do not attack you personally. I accept that you have very sincere beliefs and (although I dont know you) that you are a good person.

My argument is with ideas, and the power ideas can have to motivate action.

To me, the denial of "chance" is similar to the denial of free will. I do not accept that the Universe and all that happens in it is predestined according to the will of Allah. If that were so, why did God give us intelligence, consciousness and the capacity to think critically? It goes against all that we know about the struggle for life, life's capacity to harness energy and combat entropy, the purpose of life being - life itself.

You might find some of my posts abrasive. Believe me I am sorry if I upset you. But we are mature adults here (mostly!) and as you said "seekers after truth". Sometimes as we all have experienced, the truth hurts.
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2005 01:15 pm
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
The study that shows drinking a glass of red wine a day is good for the heart, isn't talking about the alcohol content. It's the antioxidant content provided by the grapes used to make the wine.


Okay, but other studies, such as the one in the first link I posted, which just talks about alcohol, without specifying any particular beverege, have found that alcohol itself is beneficial in moderation.

muslim1 wrote:
Yet, can we define the term 'moderate drinking'? what is maximum limit of alcohol to drink in order not to exceed 'moderate drinking'? is 'moderate drinking' for a person A the same as a person B? does the type of wine affect the 'moderate drinking' threshold?


Obviously the definition of 'moderate drinking' is tricky. But these studies have come up with their own definitions of moderate drinking, and found positive results. One of the studies in the second link I think found that there was a reduced risk of Coronary Heart Disease for people who drank up to 2 drinks per day, but not for those who drank three or more. Drinks do of course vary in strength, but not by that much. Suffice it to say, it is easily possible to drink in strict moderation, and evidence shows that this does no harm to the body, and is in fact beneficial.

I'm not suggesting that everybody should drink. We don't need to drink, of course. As you say, millions of people who have never touched a drop of wine in their lives are perfectly healthy. It just seems silly to me for Islam to ban all drinking, when moderate drinking does absolutely no harm, involves no intoxication, and is actually beneficial healthwise. It would make more sense to me if they just banned excessive drinking - because excessive drinking is unhealthy, does result in intoxication, and can lead to addiction, death, etc.

Banning alcohol altogether because getting drunk is bad is like banning sex altogether because adultery is bad.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 03:51 am
Danger woman

She arrived in the Netherlands as an asylum seeker and became a fiery critic of both multiculturalism and her own religion, Islam. Then last November the director of a film she wrote about the subjugation of Muslim women was killed, sparking a crisis over the country's attitudes to immigration. In her first British interview since the murder, Ayaan Hirsi Ali talks to Alexander Linklater

Tuesday May 17, 2005
The Guardian




Now I think I've found a new hero or heroine in Ayaan Hirsi Ali

this is what she says

"But when it comes to the relationship between men and women, in all these countries there is a red line of the woman being subordinate to the male. And most Muslim men justify this subordinacy with the Qur'an."

Hopes for a moderate Islam are only meaningful, she argues, if it is possible to chip away the theological brickwork - constructed, she believes, on a foundation of female oppression - which permeates the structure of the religion. But Islam, she says, is unable to endure criticism or change, and is essentially at odds with European values.

What she is really talking about is reformation, but of a religion that has no church, no Caliphate. Hirsi Ali is an activist, for sure, but her targets are not so much political as theological. And what she wants to do now is to produce a follow-up to Submission - this time, the story of the men. She has just won a court case, brought by a group of Muslims aiming to prevent her going ahead with the project.

full article at


http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,1485433,00.html
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 07:06 am
So you believe everything is predestined by God? That nothing happens by chance? That even those who do not believe, don't believe because God has decreed their unbelief?

yet in the Koran we find

lxxiv. 54 /55 Nay, it is surely a Reminder. So whovever pleases may mind it.


lxxvi.3 We have truly shown him the way; he may be thankful or unthankful.


lxxvi.29 Surely this is a Reminder; so whoever will, let him take a way to his Lord.


xli.16 As to Thamud, We vouchsafed them also guidance, but to guidance did they prefer blindness


xviii.28 The truth is from your Lord : let him then who will, believe; and let him who will, be an unbeliever

all of which imply free will. So which is it, free will or predestination?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 May, 2005 03:36 pm
is no one going to pick up on my question predestination or free will?
0 Replies
 
muslim1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2005 09:36 am
All praise be to God (Allah), most Gracious, most Merciful.

Steve;

Quote:
is no one going to pick up on my question predestination or free will?


The concept of destiny used in the Holy Qur'an means a measure or the latent possibilities with which God (Allah) created human beings and all things of nature. When God (Allah) created each thing, He determined when it would come into existence and when it would cease to exist. He also determined its qualities and nature. And everything in the universe, the seen and the unseen, is completely subject to the overriding power of God (Allah). Nothing can happen outside His Will (as I said earlier: nothing happens by chance).

As for human beings, they are not completely masters of their fates, nor are they puppets subject to the hazards of destiny. God (Allah) gave humans limited power and great freedom, including the freedom of choice. That autonomy makes each individual accountable for his or her deeds.

We cannot know our future and, to a large extent, we cannot control it. But we can make decisions within the limits of what we can control, based on our understanding of the way the world works. If someone chooses to punch his fist into a brick wall, he cannot claim any injustice when it hurts. He knows that the wall exists and that it is hard. That is the reality ?- the "laws of nature" ?- he has to deal with. Yet the ultimate reality is that God (Allah ) could make the wall disappear just before one's fist reaches it.

Just as God (Allah) created nature and its laws, He made moral laws, and we cannot claim any injustice if we get punished for disobeying or ignoring those moral laws.


May the peace and blessings of God (Allah) be upon his prophet Muhammad.
0 Replies
 
brahmin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2005 11:16 am
muslim1 wrote:


Quote:
The Qu'ran was written by a man. Mohammad was a man ,was he not?


It is a fact of history that prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was an illiterate. This fact is sufficient to prove that prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is not the author of the Holy Qur'an, but that it is a revelation from almighty God.
Almighty God said: "And thou wast not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: In that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted."
[Holy Qur'an 29:48]



Mohammed's reaction to the Quranic trance

The first person to doubt the genuineness of the Quranic "revelations" was Mohammed himself. This was at the very beginning of his career, when during his Ramadhân retreat outside Mecca in AD 610, he had an audio-visual experience in which he both heard and saw the archangel Gabriel, calling upon him to "Recite!" (Iqrâ', from Qara'a, whence Qur'ân). Upon receiving his first "revelation", Mohammed thought he was going mad, or in the parlance of those days, that he was getting possessed by an evil spirit.

He didn't want to spend the rest of his life as Mecca's village idiot, and so, preferring death to disgrace, he decided to throw himself from a high rock: "Now none of God's creatures was more hateful to me than an ecstatic poet or a man possessed: I could not even look at them. I thought, Woe is me poet or possessed -- Never shall Quraish [i.e. his fellow tribesmen of the Quraish tribe] say this of me! I will go to the top of the mountain and throw myself down that I may kill myself and gain rest." (Ibn Ishâq's Sîrat Rasûl Allâh, tra. Alfred Guillaume: The Life of Mohammed, p.106/153)

The history of Islam could have ended there and then, with Mohammed escaping the spell of the alleged evil spirit by jumping to his death. But the ghost himself came to the rescue, as Mohammed testified: "So I went forth to do so and then, when I was midway on the mountain, I heard a voice from heaven saying, ?'O Mohammed! Thou art the apostle of God and I am Gabriel.'" (ibid.)

So, the vision repeated itself. We don't know if that was sufficient to reassure Mohammed about his sanity, but then another and more decisive factor intervened to save him: "And I continued standing there, neither advancing nor turning back, until Khadija sent her messengers in search of me and they gained the high ground above Mecca and returned to her while I was standing in the same place; and he [i.e. Gabriel] parted from me and I from him, returning to my family." (ibid.)

It was indeed his wife Khadija who saved him and helped him to accept the trance states as they became a recurring and then a regular feature of his life. Later on, she supported him when others doubted his prophetic claims: "By her, God lightened the burden of His prophet. He never met with contradiction and charges of falsehood, which saddened him, but God comforted him when he went home. She strengthened him, lightened his burden, proclaimed his truth, and belittled men's opposition." (Ishaq/Guillaume:111/155) But more importantly, she supported and soothed Mohammed in the crucial phase when he himself entertained the deepest doubts about his own sanity.

This is how she did it. When Mohammed came home, he told her: "Woe is me poet or possessed." But she replied: "I take refuge in God from that, o Abû'l Qâsim [i.e. "father of Qâsim", after Mohammed's first son Qâsim]. God would not treat you thus since he knows your truthfulness, your great trustworthiness, your fine character, and your kindness. This cannot be, my dear. Perhaps you did see something." And Mohammed answered: "Yes, I did." (Ishaq/Guillaume: 106/153)

Certainly Mohammed had seen something, meaning that his sensory nerves had indeed produced a visual sensation. But was it a false sensation, or in the parlance of the day, the impact of ghost-possession? Khadija and her Christian cousin Waraqa b. Naufal eagerly embraced the idea that Mohammed had had a genuine vision and had been invested with the mantle of prophethood, but Mohammed himself, with his skeptical-Pagan background, still had his doubts. Fortunately, his loving wife knew a way to decide the matter and convince him of both his sanity and his new prophetic mission.

She asked him to notify her when his visitor returned, so that they could verify whether he really was the archangel Gabriel or an ordinary demon. "So when Gabriel came to him, as he was wont, the apostle said to Khadija, ?'This is Gabriel who has just come to me.' ?'Get up, o son of my uncle', she said, ?'and sit by my left thigh.' The apostle did so, and she said, ?'Can you see him?' ?'Yes', he said. She said, ?'Then turn round and sit on my right thigh.' He did so, and she said, ?'Can you see him?' When he said that he could, she asked him to move and sit in her lap. When he had done this, she again asked if he could see him, and when he said yes, she disclosed her form and cast aside her veil while the apostle was sitting in her lap. Then she said, ?'Can you see him?' And he replied, ?'No.' She said, ?'O son of my uncle, rejoice and be of good heart, by God he is an angel and not a Satan." (Ishaq/Guillaume: 107/154)

In modern language, this account relates how Mohammed's vision of the Archangel waned and disappeared as his wife turned up the heat of sexual arousal. Narrator Ibn Ishaq adds a second tradition (through Khadija's daughter Fatima, her son Husayn, his daughter Fatima, her son Abdullah b. Hasan) which is even more explicit in this regard, viz. that "she made the apostle of God come inside her shift, and thereupon Gabriel departed, and she said to the apostle of God, ?'This verily is an angel and not a satan.'" (ibid.) The underlying assumption appears to be that a lustful demon, the kind who might take possession of a man's soul, would have stayed around to enjoy the sight of Mohammed and Khadija's sexual intercourse; whereas an angel with his ethos of renunciation would politely withdraw from the scene.

After his wife had provided him with this experimental proof of the genuineness of his meeting with the Archangel, Mohammed was cured of his doubts. He could now safely embark upon his career as God's exclusive spokesman and frequent recipient of Gabriel's messages, which were written down by a secretary and later collected into a book, the Qur'ân. Only on one occasion would the doubt briefly reappear, viz. during the episode of the "Satanic verses".







the next bit might explain why he would be interested in marrying 9 year olds :-



"It is only in a very few cases later on in his career that both contemporaries and later scholars of Islam have found reason to cast doubt on the genuineness of certain instances of his Quranic trance. These are the cases where the divine messages received during wahi were just a little too convenient not to look like Mohammed's self-serving fabrications. The best-known instance is when Mohammed received permission from Allah to marry Zaynab, the repudiated wife of his adopted son Zayd. Under Arab customary law, this union was prohibited, but in a timely revelation (Q.33:37, 33:50), Allah exempted Mohammed from this law. Christian polemicists against Islam have often cited the Zaynab episode as proof of Mohammed's insatiable lust, but in fact its indication of self-serving manipulation of the wahi by Mohammed is more damaging to the Islamic belief system."
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