Islamic Creationism

All praise be to God (Allah), most Gracious, most Merciful.

Wolf_ODonnell

Quote:

From what I've heard from my Muslims friends, the Koran or Qu'ran is far more scientifically accurate than the Christian Bible.

However, from what translations I've read, it would seem that either all the scientifically incorrect lines are bad translations or they were not meant to be taken literally and are just there for poetic licence.

For example, this line:

Quote:
"And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres"

The Prophets: 21.33

That above quote seems to say that both the sun and the moon orbit around the Earth, though I admit it is open to interpretation and I guess it all depends on what is meant by "celestial spheres".

BTW, agrote, Steve, have you tried this translation: http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/?

Thank you for your interesting post.

The Arabic word used in the above verse is 'yasbahoon' . This word is derived from the word 'sabaha'. It carries with it the idea of motion that comes from any moving body. If you use this word for a person on the ground, it would not mean that he is rolling but would imply that he is walking or running. If you use this word for a person in water, it would not mean that he is floating but would imply that he is swimming.
Similarly, if you use the word 'yasbah' for a celestial body such as the sun, it would not only mean that it is flying through space but would also mean that it is rotating as it goes through space. Most school textbooks have now incorporated the fact that the sun rotates about its axis. The rotation of the sun about its own axis can be proved with the help of an equipment that projects the image of the sun on the top of a table, so that one can examine the image of the sun without being blinded. It is noticed that the sun has spots which complete a circular motion once every 25 days i.e. the sun takes approximately 25 days to rotate round its axis.
The sun travels through space at roughly 240 km per second, and takes about 200 million years to complete one revolution around the centre of our Milky Way Galaxy.
"It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law). "agrote

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Do you deny that anything occurs by chance?

Nothing, absolutely nothing occurs by chance. All what happens in the heavens and the earth is decreed by almighty God (Allah), may He be exalted in his power.

May the peace and blessings of God (Allah) be upon his prophet Muhammad.

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"Nothing, absolutely nothing occurs by chance. All what happens in the heavens and the earth is decreed by almighty God (Allah)"

So you deny probability theory, quantum mechanics and presumably a large part of mathematics itself?

Are you saying a £10 win on the lottery was decreed by Allah?

That if you pray very hard you will win more?

Conversely that the (mostly Muslim) victims of the recent tsunami disaster were singled out by Allah for death?

This is absolutely ridiculous.

If you deny the reality of chance and probability, then it just confirms my belief that Islam is backward- looking, and probably explains why Islamic countries have failed to develop.

It would also explain why Islam bans gambling, as praying for a win can be shown to be completely useless.

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I rather wonder how it is that the Almighty could possibly be exalted in his power.

Isn't that rather the extreme example of gilding the lily?

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Muslim1, yes, indeed, the verses can be interpreted as having the meaning you explained in your post.

However, that is just one interpretation. It can also simultaneously be interpreted as saying that the sun rotates around the Earth, due to its vagueness.

May I also point out that the Silk Route runs through a few Muslim countries. It is quite possible that astronomical findings from China and India found their way to the Middle East.

Those passages in the Quran merely imply to me that Muslims are clever people who were open to ideas and didn't figuratively put their heads into the sand whenever something new came along.

Either way you slice it, its a compliment to Muslims.

steve (as 41oo) wrote:

Islam is backward- looking

Contrarily, there are things in Islam that are quite logical.

For example, in the Bible, it says that it is wrong to get drunk. In Islam, it is wrong to drink alcohol.

Sir Richard Francis Burton, who was quite fascinated with Arabic life and Islam, found out that before the introduction of Islam, the sole purpose of drinking alcohol amongst Arabs was to get drunk. Therefore, Islam banned the drinking of alcohol, for the obvious detrimental sides of being drunk and also because Islam is based on Judaism which states that getting drunk is forbidden.

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I dont deny there are some aspects of Islam which are logical. Prohibiting eating certain foods that go bad quickly in a hot climate is one. But then it would be even more logical to invent a refrigerator. Alternatively it would make sense to relax dietary restrictions in the light of modern techniques for handling food.

But its is quite illogical to deny oneself perfectly wholesome food for no other reason that it says so in a book written 1400 years before refrigerators were commonplace.

Just another example of Islam failing to adapt to modern circumstances.

[Of course some Christians and Jews can be equally daft]

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Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

For example, in the Bible, it says that it is wrong to get drunk. In Islam, it is wrong to drink alcohol.

Drunkenness is unhealthy - it damages the liver, causes minor brain damage, increases the risk of cancer, etc. But research suggests that drinking a small amount of alcohol is better for the body that drinking no alcohol at all, so wouldn't it be more logical to just ban drunkenness but not ban the drinking of a healthy amount of alcohol?

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agrote:

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But research suggests that drinking a small amount of alcohol is better for the body that drinking no alcohol at all

Would you mind mentioning who did that research and when?

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Muslim1,

perhaps it is unreasonable of me to expect a response from you but do you stick by your statement that

"Nothing, absolutely nothing occurs by chance. All what happens in the heavens and the earth is decreed by almighty God (Allah)"

or does silence on your behalf imply that you didn't really mean it?

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Glad to see that someone else is interested in Richard Francis Burton--an absolutely fascinating man, largely unknown, who added a wealth of literature and understanding of what used to be known as the Orient to the western cultural cannon. Making the hajj was an act of bravado, but quite in keeping with the totality of his life and career.

Without Burton, it is doubtful that The Thousand Nights and the One Night would ever have risen above an obscure eastern curiosity translated from Farsi into French. If for no other reason, Burton deserves to be remembered along side of Fitzgerald for introducing the west to classics of Farsi literature.

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Quote:

perhaps it is unreasonable of me to expect a response from you but do you stick by your statement that

"Nothing, absolutely nothing occurs by chance. All what happens in the heavens and the earth is decreed by almighty God (Allah)"

or does silence on your behalf imply that you didn't really mean it?

Of course I stick to my previous statement! Did you have any doubt?
I do not fear anyone when saying the truth.
Nothing, absolutely nothing occurs by chance. All what happens in the heavens and the earth is decreed by almighty God (Allah).

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muslim1 wrote:

agrote:

Quote:
But research suggests that drinking a small amount of alcohol is better for the body that drinking no alcohol at all

Would you mind mentioning who did that research and when?

Gladly. Here's one study by Thun et al, from 1997:

Alcohol consumption and mortality among middle-aged and elderly U.S. adults.

And here's a good website the brings together lots of evidence that moderate drinking is beneficial:

Alcohol and Health.

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All praise be to God (Allah), most Gracious, most Merciful.

agrote;

Quote:

Gladly. Here's one study by Thun et al, from 1997:

Alcohol consumption and mortality among middle-aged and elderly U.S. adults.

And here's a good website the brings together lots of evidence that moderate drinking is beneficial:

Alcohol and Health.

Thank you for both links.

Yet, can we define the term 'moderate drinking'? what is maximum limit of alcohol to drink in order not to exceed 'moderate drinking'? is 'moderate drinking' for a person A the same as a person B? does the type of wine affect the 'moderate drinking' threshold?
Would it be comfortable for a person to drink alcohol when there is a (big) eventuality that he gets drunk?
Your first link states that "46,000 died during nine years of follow-up". I wonder, why should a person kill himself (by drinking alcohol) when there are many, many other drinks (juices...) that he can take instead?

As for the benefits of alcohol, I know hundreds of people who have never tasted a single drip of wine, and they are extraordinarily healthy. Those persons do not need the 'benefits' mentioned in your two links.

God (Allah) almighty says in the Holy Qur'an:
"O ye who believe! intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination of Satan's handiwork; eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper."
[Holy Qur'an 5:90]

May the peace and blessings of God (Allah) be upon his prophet Muhammad.

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agrote wrote:

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
For example, in the Bible, it says that it is wrong to get drunk. In Islam, it is wrong to drink alcohol.

Drunkenness is unhealthy - it damages the liver, causes minor brain damage, increases the risk of cancer, etc. But research suggests that drinking a small amount of alcohol is better for the body that drinking no alcohol at all, so wouldn't it be more logical to just ban drunkenness but not ban the drinking of a healthy amount of alcohol?

Actually, alcohol increases your change of colon cancer.

The study that shows drinking a glass of red wine a day is good for the heart, isn't talking about the alcohol content. It's the antioxidant content provided by the grapes used to make the wine.

Also, another study showed that non-alcoholic beer is good for you, not alcoholic beer.

Are you sure you didn't misread the study?

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Muslim1 wrote:

"Of course I stick to my previous statement! Did you have any doubt?
I do not fear anyone when saying the truth.
Nothing, absolutely nothing occurs by chance. All what happens in the heavens and the earth is decreed by almighty God (Allah)."

OK thanks for the response. What you must understand is that I do not attack you personally. I accept that you have very sincere beliefs and (although I dont know you) that you are a good person.

My argument is with ideas, and the power ideas can have to motivate action.

To me, the denial of "chance" is similar to the denial of free will. I do not accept that the Universe and all that happens in it is predestined according to the will of Allah. If that were so, why did God give us intelligence, consciousness and the capacity to think critically? It goes against all that we know about the struggle for life, life's capacity to harness energy and combat entropy, the purpose of life being - life itself.

You might find some of my posts abrasive. Believe me I am sorry if I upset you. But we are mature adults here (mostly!) and as you said "seekers after truth". Sometimes as we all have experienced, the truth hurts.

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Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

The study that shows drinking a glass of red wine a day is good for the heart, isn't talking about the alcohol content. It's the antioxidant content provided by the grapes used to make the wine.

Okay, but other studies, such as the one in the first link I posted, which just talks about alcohol, without specifying any particular beverege, have found that alcohol itself is beneficial in moderation.

muslim1 wrote:

Yet, can we define the term 'moderate drinking'? what is maximum limit of alcohol to drink in order not to exceed 'moderate drinking'? is 'moderate drinking' for a person A the same as a person B? does the type of wine affect the 'moderate drinking' threshold?

Obviously the definition of 'moderate drinking' is tricky. But these studies have come up with their own definitions of moderate drinking, and found positive results. One of the studies in the second link I think found that there was a reduced risk of Coronary Heart Disease for people who drank up to 2 drinks per day, but not for those who drank three or more. Drinks do of course vary in strength, but not by that much. Suffice it to say, it is easily possible to drink in strict moderation, and evidence shows that this does no harm to the body, and is in fact beneficial.

I'm not suggesting that everybody should drink. We don't need to drink, of course. As you say, millions of people who have never touched a drop of wine in their lives are perfectly healthy. It just seems silly to me for Islam to ban all drinking, when moderate drinking does absolutely no harm, involves no intoxication, and is actually beneficial healthwise. It would make more sense to me if they just banned excessive drinking - because excessive drinking is unhealthy, does result in intoxication, and can lead to addiction, death, etc.

Banning alcohol altogether because getting drunk is bad is like banning sex altogether because adultery is bad.

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Danger woman

She arrived in the Netherlands as an asylum seeker and became a fiery critic of both multiculturalism and her own religion, Islam. Then last November the director of a film she wrote about the subjugation of Muslim women was killed, sparking a crisis over the country's attitudes to immigration. In her first British interview since the murder, Ayaan Hirsi Ali talks to Alexander Linklater

Tuesday May 17, 2005
The Guardian

Now I think I've found a new hero or heroine in Ayaan Hirsi Ali

this is what she says

"But when it comes to the relationship between men and women, in all these countries there is a red line of the woman being subordinate to the male. And most Muslim men justify this subordinacy with the Qur'an."

Hopes for a moderate Islam are only meaningful, she argues, if it is possible to chip away the theological brickwork - constructed, she believes, on a foundation of female oppression - which permeates the structure of the religion. But Islam, she says, is unable to endure criticism or change, and is essentially at odds with European values.

What she is really talking about is reformation, but of a religion that has no church, no Caliphate. Hirsi Ali is an activist, for sure, but her targets are not so much political as theological. And what she wants to do now is to produce a follow-up to Submission - this time, the story of the men. She has just won a court case, brought by a group of Muslims aiming to prevent her going ahead with the project.

full article at

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,1485433,00.html

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So you believe everything is predestined by God? That nothing happens by chance? That even those who do not believe, don't believe because God has decreed their unbelief?

yet in the Koran we find

lxxiv. 54 /55 Nay, it is surely a Reminder. So whovever pleases may mind it.

lxxvi.3 We have truly shown him the way; he may be thankful or unthankful.

lxxvi.29 Surely this is a Reminder; so whoever will, let him take a way to his Lord.

xli.16 As to Thamud, We vouchsafed them also guidance, but to guidance did they prefer blindness

xviii.28 The truth is from your Lord : let him then who will, believe; and let him who will, be an unbeliever

all of which imply free will. So which is it, free will or predestination?

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is no one going to pick up on my question predestination or free will?

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All praise be to God (Allah), most Gracious, most Merciful.

Steve;

Quote:

is no one going to pick up on my question predestination or free will?

The concept of destiny used in the Holy Qur'an means a measure or the latent possibilities with which God (Allah) created human beings and all things of nature. When God (Allah) created each thing, He determined when it would come into existence and when it would cease to exist. He also determined its qualities and nature. And everything in the universe, the seen and the unseen, is completely subject to the overriding power of God (Allah). Nothing can happen outside His Will (as I said earlier: nothing happens by chance).

As for human beings, they are not completely masters of their fates, nor are they puppets subject to the hazards of destiny. God (Allah) gave humans limited power and great freedom, including the freedom of choice. That autonomy makes each individual accountable for his or her deeds.

We cannot know our future and, to a large extent, we cannot control it. But we can make decisions within the limits of what we can controlMay the peace and blessings of God (Allah) be upon his prophet Muhammad.

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muslim1 wrote:

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The Qu'ran was written by a man. Mohammad was a man ,was he not?

It is a fact of history that prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was an illiterate. This fact is sufficient to prove that prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is not the author of the Holy Qur'an, but that it is a revelation from almighty God.
Almighty God said: "And thou wast not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: In that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted."
[Holy Qur'an 29:48]

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