Islamic Creationism

goodfielder wrote:

It seems unbelievable now that while Christian Europe was in the Dark Ages it was Islam that kept the torch of knowledge alight. Mediaeval Christianity killed independent thought, religious dogma was to drive every aspect of human existence. And that dark idea clashed with Islam.

Very creative thought gf...made me think outside the "box"

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

I leave it to readers to work out which bits are my responses

Steve is in bold. The muslim is in italics. I'm in normal font.

Now if you attack Islam, know that you have no references to use
http://www.secularislam.org/Default.htm

I'm personally a fan of "Why I am not a muslim".

and if I was you I ll exile myself until death comes because you have no dreams,

In fact I do. Mostly they involve chasing NAZIs and/or having sex, I don't know exactly why. The sex dreams I understand, the NAZI hunting is a mystery.

you cant possibly know this

you have no goal in life

Finish writing my book.
Write the other three I currently have planned.
Direct a feature length film.

or this

and basically you are not alive

Cool. I'm undead Very Happy

"And on the third day Jesus rose from the tomb, hungry for brains"

just as alive as you

because you ignore the fact that you are a Creation, that breaths because of the oxygene that was provided for you,

I'm amused when muslims say that

A) the Qu'ran contains scientifically accurate information.
B) All muslims know the Qu'ran by memory to a reasonable degree of accurasy.

Because it means that you should actually know some science.

1) It's spelled Oxygen in english.
2) The Earth's atmosphere didn't originally contain (much) Oxygen and the Oxygen in our atmosphere was created by life.

wrong, lungs and the respiratory system evolved to take advantage of atmospheric oxygen, not the other way round.

that you earth from the fruit of the Earth,
if you mean eat of the fruit of the earth, well thats true. I dont only eat fruit, and a great deal of it wouldn't be around without the application of modern agricultural techniques and artifical fertiliser.

that you drink from the water sent to you from the sky,
mine comes out of a tap actually, but I know what you mean. Or at least I assume you refer to the cometary origin of terrestial water?

Actually I think he refers to rainfall. I suppose it could also apply to condensation (if you make sky a poetic word for atmosphere). If you really really squint you could also see it as a reference to the eccretian disk from which the earth was formed, but that takes a lot of word-twisting.

that you are alive because the temperature is set for you so you don't freeze and you don't burn.
Again the wrong way round. We have evolved and adapted to earth's temperature range. How do you explain global warming? Is Allah turning the thermostat up just for fun?

Do you even know who you are

If I ever forget I have a pocket full of ID to remind me of my name and where I live. It is my objective to get so drunk at one point in my life that I need to do this.

yes

and what are you doing in this world?

Currently typing on a computer. In the broader sense, I am part of the chains of life and the human species.

how much detail do you want?

If I was like you I would feel that I am not part of Life and unuseful for anything.

You already do, which is why you beg some interplanetary being to intercede and rescue you from the fate you know in your heart you truely deserve. If I didn't despise everything you stand for so much I might be able to bring myself to pity you. I do however, so you'll just have to settle for my disregard instead.

well you're not; so you can go on living your magnificently fulfilling religious life without me

I respect my Christian and Jewish friends because they have some character at least
very generous of you

and they have a past but you, what don't you just isolate yourself physically because you are isolating yourself from the Majority.

Really?

66% of the Earth don't believe in Allah
66% of the Earth don't believe in Jesus
72% of the Earth don't believe in the other wacky religions that have been created.

You think you are the one in the majority? Count again.

you mean I haven't been brainwashed like you?

Do you know better than the Majority, or you think you are Smarter?

Standardized testing says yes. Being in the 95th percentile of basic intelligence there are a few people smarter than I. 240,000,000 of them approximately. I've even been lucky enough to meet some of them. However yes, I am most certainly smarter than the majority.

I am also educated enough to be familiar with the basic premises of logic, in which argumentum ad populum is held to be a logical fallacy and invalid method of reasoning.

Well as it happens I do have above average intelligence (God given, I am the first to admit) so I suppose the answer in strict numeric terms is yes.

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In the name of God (Allah), most gracious, most merciful.

agrote ;

You wrote (in page 3 of this thread):

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Of course Evolution is a theory.

and (in page 4 of the same thread):

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it answers the argument that evolution is just a theory

Aren't these two statements contradicting? Please specify whether evolution is a fact or theory.

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Let's make a deal, I'll try and learn more abotu islam and yo utry and learn more about evolution and why people believe it to be true. Okay?

It's a good deal.

I thank you for the links you provided, I appreciate your effort. Unfortunately, all of the arguments in the links (Chromosomes comparison, genetic basis of evolution, Natural selection, Molecular evolution, the Galapagos Islands issue, the anti-creationist arguments...) are scientifically refuted in the following four websites:

Darwinism refuted

Evolution deceit

Responding to evolutionist propaganda in the media

Evolution documentary

Let me ask you a question: you are a human being, having a number of qualities that other living creatures do not have; you have an intelligence, you can speak... You, as a human, are favored over all other species: now do you imagine that your ancestor was and Ape? an Ape has no intelligence, is not beautiful, cannot express itself in a clear language (like English)... Think about it without pre-established ideas.

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The Qu'ran was written by a man. Mohammad was a man ,was he not?

It is a fact of history that prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was an illiterate. This fact is sufficient to prove that prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is not the author of the Holy Qur'an, but that it is a revelation from almighty God.
Almighty God said: "And thou wast not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: In that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted."
[Holy Qur'an 29:48]

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I believe, incidentally, that God does not exist

Can you tell me, my friend, who created the extraordinary beautiful and organized universe? who created humans? who is the sustainer of the world?

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You assume that without religion, people cannot be good and moral and live productive lives, but that's just not true.

The grace and favor of almighty God (Allah in Arabic) over humans is extraordinary. Do you think it is fair not to obey the Lord of the worlds who gave us all this?

mesquite;

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Yes, much can be learned from Guillaume.

Islam is learned from its authentic sources, not from alfred guillaume.

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If you have a translation that provides a different meaning

Here is a translation I advise you to read:

Holy Qur'an translation

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No, they are not treated equal

A statement without proof is baseless.

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For every example you can cite as above, I could make up one that would make the female more deserving, or needful.

You gave no example. You couldn't make up a single one. I gave a clear example illustrating the extraordinary financial rights of women in Islam.

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I could fill pages with horrible practices that occured during the formation of Islam and that are still condoned today under Shariah law.

You "could", you "could"... Yet you do nothing. There is not a SINGLE bad practice occurred during what you called 'the formation of Islam'. Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) came to continue the message of the previous prophets (peace be upon them all), he came (peace and blessings be upon him) as a mercy to all creatures.

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I think there are many women here on A2K that may care to comment on those remarks.

I am waiting for a few ladies to describe the catastrophic situation of women in the West.

Steve (as 41oo)

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But when I took a cursory look about Aisha (nine) marrying Mohammed (53) I find there's a whole website devoted to the question

Here is the answer:

The young marriage of the mother of believers Aishah (May God be pleased with her)

goodfielder

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we're fighting mediaevalism. And it's not just coming from Islam.

Islam is the equivalent of civilization:

Islam, a world civilization

The great civilization of Islam

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And how did people live their lives before organised religion? Think about it.

We, Muslims, believe that almighty God sent prophets, starting from Adam (peace be upon him) with the same basic message: the oneness of God. Therefore, religion is as old as human beings.

Merry Andrew

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If this is a battle of wits, you're fighting an unarmed man.

The Holy Qur'an is the best reasoning power that exists on the face of the Earth.

Brother NewSoul (May God(Allah) reward him) made excellent points and posed very good questions that are still unanswered by agrote, mesquite and the other members.

Best Regards.

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Muslim 1

Anyone capable of saying (with a straight face, yet): "The Holy Qu'ran is the best reasoning power that exists on the face of the Earth" proves my point admirably.

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Muslim1 writes

"all of the arguments in the links (Chromosomes comparison, genetic basis of evolution, Natural selection, Molecular evolution, the Galapagos Islands issue, the anti-creationist arguments...) are scientifically refuted in the following four websites:

Darwinism refuted

Evolution deceit

Responding to evolutionist propaganda in the media

Evolution documentary"

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This is a typical bit of trickery. The four websites are all based on the works of author Adnan Oktar who uses the pen name Harun Yahya. (Aaron John clever eh?)
He is not a scientist, being educated at Mimar Sinan University's Academy of Fine Arts in Turkey where he studied arts and philosophy.

He repeats all the standard creationist stuff and clearly has no understanding of basic science e.g. thermodynamics.

You could not have found a worse example than Adnan Oktar to "scientifically" refute anything.

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Muslim1 goes on to say

"an Ape has no intelligence, is not beautiful, cannot express itself in a clear language "

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Primates are intelligent animals.

Papers on "primate intelligence" and similar term

This paper discusses recent primate studies that suggest there are more degrees of intelligence and more kinds of intelligence in the animal kingdom than was thought possible. The paper stresses that observing chimpanzees in the wild affords more opportunities to see intelligent behavior than observing them in zoos or other captive environments. The author points out that having learned that chimpanzees in the wild medicate themselves as needed, humans are learning about medications from these chimpanzees.

and beauty is in the eye of the beholder

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Muslim1 writes "Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was an illiterate. This fact is sufficient to prove that prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is not the author of the Holy Qur'an, but that it is a revelation from almighty God."

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It proves no such thing. The fact that he was illiterate proves nothing other than he could not write. If he dictated it he is still the author. To make the extraordinary claim that it was the work of God requires extraordinary proof, and there is none, apart from Mohammed's word for it.

Regarding Mohammed's marriage to Aisha (betrothed aged 6 married aged 9, when Mohammed was 53) er what was the question? Was Mohammed a paedophile? Suppose it depends how you define paedophilia. I leave it to you.

One of the sites Muslim1 refers to states that the Koran has only one version. Yet earlier different versions have been found:-

"Islam, as represented by admittedly biased sources, was in essence a tribal conspiracy against the Byzantine and Persian empires with deep roots in Judaism, and that Arabs and Jews were allies in these conquering communities.

Apparent support for their conclusions came from finds made during the restoration of the Great Mosque of Sana'a in Yemen, where labourers working in the roof discovered fragments of Korans that are among the oldest in existence. German scholars who studied the manuscripts discovered that some of the Koranic writing diverges from the authorised version, which by tradition is considered the pure, unadulterated word of God. What's more, some of the writing appears to have been inscribed over earlier, "rubbed-out" versions of the text. This editing supports the belief of ******* and his pupils that the Koran as we know it does not date from the time of Mohammad."

source http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/587413/posts

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muslim1 wrote:

agrote ;

You wrote (in page 3 of this thread):

Quote:
Of course Evolution is a theory.

and (in page 4 of the same thread):

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it answers the argument that evolution is just a theory

Aren't these two statements contradicting? Please specify whether evolution is a fact or theory.

Evolution is a theory. A theory that is well-respected and accepted by the scientific community, as is the theory of gravity, for example. The two statements aren't contradictory - in the second one I just meant that the link I posted explains that saying "evolution is just a theory" is of course true, but is a useless criticism of the theory's truth. Yes evolution is a theory, so what? Look again at the link, and it explains what 'theory' actually means. Remember that gravity is a theory, do oyu believe in gravity?

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I thank you for the links you provided, I appreciate your effort. Unfortunately, all of the arguments in the links (Chromosomes comparison, genetic basis of evolution, Natural selection, Molecular evolution, the Galapagos Islands issue, the anti-creationist arguments...) are scientifically refuted in the following four websites:

Darwinism refuted

Evolution deceit

Responding to evolutionist propaganda in the media

Evolution documentary

Thanks, I'll look at those soon and get back to you.

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Let me ask you a question: you are a human being, having a number of qualities that other living creatures do not have; you have an intelligence, you can speak... You, as a human, are favored over all other species: now do you imagine that your ancestor was and Ape? an Ape has no intelligence, is not beautiful, cannot express itself in a clear language (like English)... Think about it without pre-established ideas.

First of all, apes are beautiful. I'm surprised you would accuse what you believe to be "a creation of God" of being ugly. I accept of course that apes are less intelligent than us, and I believe that all that means is that we are further up the evolutionary ladder.

I'm going to try and convince you that evolution does make sense, because you seem to think it's not possible that we could be related to apes.

You accept that different apes have different physical characteristics, rigt? Some apes are tall, some apes have better eyesight, some apes are smarter because their brains are slightly more developed, or whatever. Okay? So apes, like every other species, are not all identical. Here is something else you should agree with: these physical differences between apes make some apes fitter for survival than others. An ape with better eyesight might find it easier to find food, a smart ape might be better at avoiding danger, and an ape with strong arms might be better able to defend himself. So generally the apes that survive are the fittest apes. Agreed?

I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't agree with everything I've just said. But now I come to the bits you might not agree with. Dead apes can't reproduce, so the apes that do reproduce are those that survive - the fittest apes. When apes reproduce, they pass some of their characteristics on to the baby. Now, the thing that I'm not sure whether you agree with, is that this is due to genetic inheritance. The physical characteristics that make apes fitter for survival are determiend by their genes, which they pass on to their offspring, producing fit babies.

But where do the 'fit' genes coem from in the first place? This'll be hard for you to accept, but the theory is that genetic mutations occur randomly, producing new genes, and therefore new physical characteristics. So as well as inheriting their parents' characteristics, apes are randomly born with smaller noses, or less hair, strong legs, bigger brain, or whatever. Now if these mutations are not very good, they might cause the ape to die before reproducing. But the good random characteristics, which are best suited to the apes' environment, will survive, since the ape will be fitter for survival and will live to reproduce. So they can pass these new genes on to their offspring, and produce a line of apes with, for example, slightly less hair. This process continues to happen, and the apes gradually evolve according to their environment. If the climate changes, for example, and it gets colder, they might develop thicker fur.

Evolution isn't some mystical process, it's just the process of having babies that are slightly different to you. So let me recap:

Random genetic mutations occur, and cause animals to have particular new characteristics, such as bigger ears, or smaller stomachs.
The animals with the best genes will survive and reproduce, since good genes make them fitter for survival.
When animals reproduce, they pass their genes on to their offspring. This means that the most beneficial random mutations survive accross generations, so that, for example, apes in the future have slightly less hair.
As this gradual process continues to happen over many many years, species can evolve into completely different animals, just as apes have evolved into humans.

That is the process of evolution. Which of thoase premises do you not accept?

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It is a fact of history that prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was an illiterate. This fact is sufficient to prove that prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is not the author of the Holy Qur'an, but that it is a revelation from almighty God.
Almighty God said: "And thou wast not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: In that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted."
[Holy Qur'an 29:48]

Is there any evidence other than the Qur'an for this "fact"?

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Can you tell me, my friend, who created the extraordinary beautiful and organized universe? who created humans? who is the sustainer of the world?

Nobody. As I said, I don't believe in God, so those questions are meaningless to me. I prefer the question, Did anyone create the extraordinary beautiful and organised universe? No.

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The grace and favor of almighty God (Allah in Arabic) over humans is extraordinary. Do you think it is fair not to obey the Lord of the worlds who gave us all this?

It is probably not fair to disobey the Lord of the worlds. But since there isn't one, I'm in the clear.

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muslim1 wrote:

Brother NewSoul (May God(Allah) reward him) made excellent points and posed very good questions that are still unanswered by agrote, mesquite and the other members.

Did he? Care to repeat the unanswered questions? I didn't mean to overlook them, I'll answer them now if you tell me what they were.

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In the name of God (Allah), most Gracious, most Merciful.

Merry Andrew;

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Anyone capable of saying (with a straight face, yet): "The Holy Qu'ran is the best reasoning power that exists on the face of the Earth" proves my point admirably.

Unfortunately, it does not prove your point. Can you prove that the Holy Qu'ran is not the best reasoning power that exists on the face of the Earth?

agrote;

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A theory that is well-respected and accepted by the scientific community

Not all of the scientific community.
Do you know why many scientists support the theory of evolution? The reason is because the Church was against Science previously - and you know the Galileo and Copernicus incidents. Why? Because they said certain statements in the Astronomy, etc., which went against the Bible. So when Charles Darwin came up with a theory which goes against the Bible, they did not want any sufficient proof - An enemy of my enemy is my friend. So many scientists supported the theory, because it went against the Bible - not because it was true. They only supported it because it went against the Bible.

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Remember that gravity is a theory, do oyu believe in gravity?

The scientific rule regarding "theories" is quite simple: A theory is true unless some experiments or mathematical reasoning prove it wrong.
Till now, gravity has proven itself to be a solid theory in many areas. That is not the case for "evolution", where a few experiments have proven it, with all my due respect, wrong.

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First of all, apes are beautiful. I'm surprised you would accuse what you believe to be "a creation of God" of being ugly.

What I meant is that apes are far less beautiful than humans.

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Is there any evidence other than the Qur'an for this "fact"?

Logically: It is impossible that prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) authored the Qur'an. How could a man, become suddenly the most important author, in terms of literary merits, in the whole of Arabic literature?
How could he then pronounce truths of a scientific nature that no other human being could possibly have developed at that time, and all this without once making the slightest error in his pronouncement on the subject?
If prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) were indeed literate, Muslims would not need to hide it. The fact that God almighty revealed the Holy Qur'an would not change even if prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) were literate. When his contemporaries heard the Holy Qur'an many remarked: "This is no less than divine speech." Those who believed saw it not as the speech of a literate man but as the speech of no man whether literate or illiterate.

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Nobody. As I said, I don't believe in God, so those questions are meaningless to me. I prefer the question, Did anyone create the extraordinary beautiful and organised universe? No.

Nobody? Has "Nobody" first created itself to then create the extraordinary beautiful and organized Universe?

-Question: Was the Universe created FROM nothing? I think you will agree that the answer is negative: The Universe was not created from nothing.
-Next Question: Was the Universe created by Man? We know very well, that Man cannot create the Universe. Human beings cannot even create living creature as such as fly, leave aside the big Universe.
-Third Question: Was the Universe created by chance? If it were the case, why does the moon perform a rotation around the Earth in One month (lunar month)? Has chance ever been organized to created a superbly organized Universe?... Even if you apply Probabilities on this issue, you will find that the probability of the Universe created by chance is equal to zero.

After those three questions, there has to be Someone, some supernatural force behind the existence of the Universe: That is almighty God (Allah in Arabic), the Creator of all things.

Best Regards.

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I am waiting for a few ladies to describe the catastrophic situation of women in the West.

I am still waiting...

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Muslim1 asks some questions:-

"Can you prove that the Holy Qu'ran is not the best reasoning power that exists on the face of the Earth?"

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Another deception. Asking for proof of a negative statement.

I notice you have not commented on my research on author Adnan Oktar, who you claim has "scientifically" refuted Darwinism and evolution.

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"Do you know why many scientists support the theory of evolution? The reason is because the Church was against Science previously - and you know the Galileo and Copernicus incidents. Why? Because they said certain statements in the Astronomy, etc., which went against the Bible. So when Charles Darwin came up with a theory which goes against the Bible, they did not want any sufficient proof - An enemy of my enemy is my friend. So many scientists supported the theory, because it went against the Bible - not because it was true. They only supported it because it went against the Bible."

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Smile

Complete and utter garbage.

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"Till now, gravity has proven itself to be a solid theory in many areas. That is not the case for "evolution", where a few experiments have proven it, with all my due respect, wrong. "

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This also complete rubbish. Unworthy of further discussion.

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"The Universe was not created from nothing. "

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ok then Who created God?

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"why does the moon perform a rotation around the Earth in exactly One day?"

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Smile

now you really are on a different planet

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"After those three questions, there has to be Someone, some supernatural force behind the existence of the Universe: That is almighty God (Allah in Arabic), the Creator of all things. "

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Logically that does not follow at all. It doesnt follow that some supernatural force must exist, and it certainly is no basis to start ascribing characteristics to that supreme being, by giving IT a name (Allah) and presuming to know what Allah likes and dislikes. Your attempt to "prove" the existance of God by simply stating that he must exist is facile.

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muslim1 wrote:

Do you know why many scientists support the theory of evolution? The reason is because the Church was against Science previously - and you know the Galileo and Copernicus incidents. Why? Because they said certain statements in the Astronomy, etc., which went against the Bible. So when Charles Darwin came up with a theory which goes against the Bible, they did not want any sufficient proof - An enemy of my enemy is my friend. So many scientists supported the theory, because it went against the Bible - not because it was true. They only supported it because it went against the Bible.

Interesting theory. You're saying that the scientists had a grudge against religion, so they immediately accepted Darwinism simply because it cotnradicted religious teachings. Now. Do you have ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL FOR THIS PROPOSITION?! If so, lemme see it. If not, you are just speculating. Show me some evidence that Darwinism was only embrased because it went against religiosu teachings...

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The scientific rule regarding "theories" is quite simple: A theory is true unless some experiments or mathematical reasoning prove it wrong.
Till now, gravity has proven itself to be a solid theory in many areas. That is not the case for "evolution", where a few experiments have proven it, with all my due respect, wrong.

No, you are mistaken. By your definition of 'theory,' I coudl come up with the theory, "My mother is a mongoose," and since there is no scientific literature or mathematical reasoning proving that statement wrong, I'd have to accept it as true. Are you telling me my mother is a mongoose?! I'm quite insulted. Can we just leave my mother out of this please? Mad

The other problem with your definition is, once again, your misuse of the word 'proof' or 'prove.' I want this to stop now, it's very annoying. Scientific experiments never prove anything. All they do is provide evidence for things. A hypothesis is put forward, and that hypothesis is tested by examining a sample group of people, fossils, or whatever. Statistical tests are used to determine the probability of the hypothesis beign true according to the data obtained from the sample. This probability is never 100%! There is always at least a very very small likelihood that the data has supported the hypothesis only by chance - that it might just be a coincidence that positive results have been found.

Proof can come from mathematical reasoning. But experiments involve empirical observation, and mistakes are always possible. For example, a scientist might find that unhealthy school dinners cause children to misbehave, when in fact it is the sugary breakfast cereal they eat in the morning that causes them to misbehave. So experimental evidence is seen as just that: evidence, not proof.

So it is wrong to say that "a few experiments have proven evolution wrong," because that is impossible. It is possible, however, that some experiments have provided strong evidence against the theory of evolution - that is probably what you mean to say.

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What I meant is that apes are far less beautiful than humans.

Only to other humans... I'm sure apes find apes quite attractive.

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If prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) were indeed literate, Muslims would not need to hide it.

But if Muhammad was literate, he could have written the Qur'an without the need of a miracle. Anyway, I asked for evidence tha Muhammad was illiterate - is there any?

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Was the Universe created FROM nothing? I think you will agree that the answer is negative: The Universe was not created from nothing.

I don't know - I don't claim to know the answer to that. All I can say is that I don't believe that a loving God created it.

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Was the Universe created by Man?

Of course not. I'm not sure that anyone in the world believes that...

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Was the Universe created by chance? If it were the case, why does the moon perform a rotation around the Earth in exactly One day? Has chance ever been organized to created a superbly organized Universe?... Even if you apply Probabilities on this issue, you will find that the probability of the Universe created by chance is equal to zero.

Can you show me your calculations for that please?

Maybe the universe wasn't created at all. Maybe it has always existed.

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After those three questions, there has to be Someone, some supernatural force behind the existence of the Universe: That is almighty God (Allah in Arabic), the Creator of all things.

That's a massive leap to take. I think you're a little overconfident.

You didn't respond to one of my questions earlier:

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Random genetic mutations occur, and cause animals to have particular new characteristics, such as bigger ears, or smaller stomachs.
The animals with the best genes will survive and reproduce, since good genes make them fitter for survival.
When animals reproduce, they pass their genes on to their offspring. This means that the most beneficial random mutations survive accross generations, so that, for example, apes in the future have slightly less hair.
As this gradual process continues to happen over many many years, species can evolve into completely different animals, just as apes have evolved into humans.

That is the process of evolution. Which of thoase premises do you not accept?

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muslim1 wrote:

Unfortunately, it does not prove your point. Can you prove that the Holy Qu'ran is not the best reasoning power that exists on the face of the Earth?

I don't know what you mean by proof. For me the best proof is the Quran itself. Do you consider instructions not to pray if you are drunk, dirty, or have touched a woman lately, but if you do get dirty (by touching a woman or something), and can't find any clean water around, you can clean up by rubbing your face and hands in some clean dirt, to be enlightening?

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4:43 O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.

Or, as from Muslim 1's recommended translation.

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4:43. O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.

Want some more?

Absurdity in the Quran

Edit: provided additional translation.

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I haven't seen a single Absurdity in the Quran.... I have read all of the comments. God is my lord and your lord. He created you from dust and water just like he created me and others. He is giving you chances to repent to him otherwise you will be the looser. Mesquite, I have just done my duty to Warn you as a Muslim. I will hope to see you in the Day of Judgment which I will and will hope that you be saved rather than have the curse of God on you.

Are you willing to sacrifice your eternal destiny for couple years in Earth ?

Are you not able to submit to nobody but God and be in control of your desires to please your lord for couple years ?

Good luck,

If you need any help to understand Islam better feel free to contact me

Regards,

Michael

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so when arguments fail to impress, threaten eternal damnation

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Steve When you are dealing with Ignorant people, all you can do is guide them to the truth and show them how to get the Knowledge by themselves . The Quran and Sunnah are self-explanatory that don't have any Mistake because they are God's Knowledge and not written by Man. I have answered all the questions with as much knowledge I have and I am seeking Knowledge every day. I don't let others decide for me or tell me the way to go , I rather use the Freedom that God gave me to be convinced and choose. If God didn't give all of us Freedom of Will he would not punish us for our sins but he wants us to be the best of his creations, the creations that use his greatest values to decide on their own what to do and where to go. The test is hard and takes couple years and a lot of patience and that is why God will reward everyone based on who they are and will punish differently but severely who didn't accept his values based on how selfish and arrogant and basically Evil their person is. God says that the worse of sins is to claim self-sufficiency and not believe in God.

How could somebody criticize something that he has Absolutely no Knowledge Of ? The only reason why I am still trying to guide you is because I know what you know not. I have more Knowledge than you do and that makes me a Free person , not with my desires like Animals but Free to decide because I know the difference between the Good and Bad and you only know how to go with the flow and let others desires and others lifestyles take you wherever they take you.

It is God who gave you Brains and when you are born you have no Data yet but you see so many data coming your way and it is your duty to seek Knowledge to see where the truth is and exercise your Freedom of Will. I believe that that is the only way to distance your self from Animals.

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newsoul, you presume to know my religious beliefs. you know nothing about me.

you can say i am no better than an animal. feel free, I would rather be an animal as god created me than a poor sop like you with a head full of mumbo jumbo.

understand this...I dont wish you any harm
but I have made it my mission in life to DESTROY as far as I am able, the iniquitous and dangerous creeds that pass as religion.

Islam is repressive and medieval
Judaism is racist
Christianity in its generally understood form is nonsense.

but of the three give me nonsense over vicious racism and repression

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NewSoul wrote:

I haven't seen a single Absurdity in the Quran.... I have read all of the comments. God is my lord and your lord. He created you from dust and water just like he created me and others. He is giving you chances to repent to him otherwise you will be the looser. Mesquite, I have just done my duty to Warn you as a Muslim. I will hope to see you in the Day of Judgment which I will and will hope that you be saved rather than have the curse of God on you.

Are you willing to sacrifice your eternal destiny for couple years in Earth ?

Are you not able to submit to nobody but God and be in control of your desires to please your lord for couple years ?

Good luck,

If you need any help to understand Islam better feel free to contact me

Regards,

Michael

Ok, so let's review this just so I am absolutely sure of what you are saying. I will stay with the same example because it also shows disrespect for women as well as absurdity.

You find no absurdity that your God instructs you to wash yourself in clean earth before praying if you have become unclean by coming in contact with something so nasty as a woman?

How do you tell what earth is clean? What if a goat recently urinated there? Yuk!

This may have made sense to a desert nomad, but if you go rubbing earth from many parts of this world on your faces and hands, you are not going to look very presentable. This stuff they call soil in Az. would probably cause bleeding if you tried rubbing it on your face. I can just picture the outcome of washing with some red Georgia clay.

How about clueing me in on what it is about being in contact with a woman that would require washing with dirt to get it off.

Now, about this warning. That is something that gives me pause, not from the wrath of your god, but from wacks that believe enough in this nonsense to think that they need to help god out and do his work for him.

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NewSoul wrote:

How could somebody criticize something that he has Absolutely no Knowledge Of ?

You have criticised my beliefs. Tell me what you know about agnosticism...

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I don't have time to answer your questions ..

When we wash ourselfs , we wash the inside and not the outside... Water of Dirt , those are the two products used by God to create us. When we wash either with water or dirt it is the action that matters. It is the willing to purify ourselves for the sake of God ( Allah).

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Know that questions like that have already been asked to Muhammad PBUH and any question you have , please read the Quran & Sunnah. I can't just do everything to educate you about Islam.

Know that I had those questions before and I learned to look for the answers myself to understand them better. God is the Creator, and he knows best why he designed his laws that way. And to help us in our daily lives and help us understand his Laws God asks us to get the Knowledge.

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Islamic Creationism

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