Islamic Creationism

thanks for explanation Muslim1

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muslim1 wrote:

Nothing, absolutely nothing occurs by chance. All what happens in the heavens and the earth is decreed by almighty God (Allah), may He be exalted in his power.

May the peace and blessings of God (Allah) be upon his prophet Muhammad.

fine then.

after usa is done bombing afghanistan to the stone age, and bombing the hell out of iraq, it can concentrate on other countries like iran, soudi arabia and pakistan.

meanwhile israel can have palestanians for lunch.

dont you dare complain about any of these.

all are "decreeed by the almighty God (Allah), may he be exalted in his power"

and dont blame me either, for painting this rather dismal picture of the future of the muslim world - i am not to blame - it was "decreed" - after all "nothig absolutely nothing occurs by chance"

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All praise be to God (Allah), most Gracious, most Merciful.

Quote:

fine then.

after usa is done bombing afghanistan to the stone age, and bombing the hell out of iraq, it can concentrate on other countries like iran, soudi arabia and pakistan.

meanwhile israel can have palestanians for lunch.

dont you dare complain about any of these.

all are "decreeed by the almighty God (Allah), may he be exalted in his power"

and dont blame me either, for painting this rather dismal picture of the future of the muslim world - i am not to blame - it was "decreed" - after all "nothig absolutely nothing occurs by chance"

Hello brahmin and welcome to the discussion.

Would you mind reading the explanation of destiny in Islam (page 16 of this thread)? I hope the matter of free will and predestination will be clearer to you.
Your views on Islam are most welcome (YOUR views, not cut & paste articles). If you have any misconceptions about Islam, we (NewSoul and I) will try to remove them as best as we can.

Welcome again to the discussion.

May the peace and blessings of God (Allah) be upon his prophet Muhammad.

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thanks for the welcome.

i have no misconceptions about islam.

i know exactly who islamics are, where islam is from, what it does....to a degree better than most backstreeets boys (pun intended).

the articles i pasted, are not my views yes, but not untrue either.

all are substantiated by the koran itself. all references are given.

its true that his wife made him lose doubts about the veracity of the archangel's messages, by seducing him.

also true that he received a timely er.. message that exonarated him from the crime of marrying a 9 year old.

the necessary serial numbers of the koranic allusions are supplied in both the articles i cut-pasted.

as for the future fo islam - well both your views on page 16 and mine on 17 are - you guessed it "ordained by the blah blah blahck sheep".

thanks again for the welcome, and pardon me for reminding you one last time that the ball's not in my court, ordained as all things invariably are.

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An excellent article on the origin of the Koran can be found here

http://www.secularislam.org/research/origins.htm

An extract:

"The problem is the very mode of origin of the tradition, not some minor distortions subsequently introduced. Allowing for distortions arising from various allegiances within Islam such as those to a particular area, tribe, sect or school does nothing to correct the tendentiousness arising from allegiance to Islam itself. The entire tradition is tendentious, its aim being the elaboration of an Arabian Heilgeschichte, and this tendentiousness has shaped the facts as we have them, not merely added some partisan statements we can deduct."

Its clear if you read the whole article that Islam is founded on myth and legend.

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All praise be to God (Allah), most Gracious, most Merciful.

brahmin;

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i have no misconceptions about islam.

Very nice. So you know exactly what Islam is. Why don't you become Muslim then?

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i know exactly who islamics are

Would you mind explaining the word 'islamics' for me?

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where islam is from

Since you have no misconception about Islam, you will agree that Islam is from your (and my) Creator, almighty God (Allah in Arabic).

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what it does

Islam shows us the true path to righteousness. Islam teaches us all what is good and right.
"Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah."[Holy Qur'an 3:110]

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its true that his wife made him lose doubts about the veracity of the archangel's messages, by seducing him.

also true that he received a timely er.. message that exonarated him from the crime of marrying a 9 year old.

From those two statements, it appears that you have very little knowledge about Islam. Before commenting on a matter, we have to know it first.
May I suggest that you read a translation of the Holy Qur'an (here is one :Holy Qur'an) carefully so that you can discuss Islam in a better position?

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the necessary serial numbers of the koranic allusions are supplied in both the articles i cut-pasted.

First we call them 'references', not 'serial numbers'. Secondly, the Qur'anic references appear only in your second article, not both. Please read carefully your cut & paste articles before posting them. Thirdly, the two Qur'anic references (from surah Al-Ahzab [Chapter 33]) in your second article, are completely out of context.

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as for the future fo islam

I would request you to expand more your opinion on this issue, especially when we know that Islam is growing fast in non-muslim countries (Praise be to God (Allah)), even in Muslim countries, people are returning to the true teachings of Islam.

Again, If you have any questions about Islam, I will be glad to try to answer them as best as I can.

Steve;

Quote:

An excellent article on the origin of the Koran can be found here

http://www.secularislam.org/research/origins.htm

An extract:

"The problem is the very mode of origin of the tradition, not some minor distortions subsequently introduced. Allowing for distortions arising from various allegiances within Islam such as those to a particular area, tribe, sect or school does nothing to correct the tendentiousness arising from allegiance to Islam itself. The entire tradition is tendentious, its aim being the elaboration of an Arabian Heilgeschichte, and this tendentiousness has shaped the facts as we have them, not merely added some partisan statements we can deduct."

Its clear if you read the whole article that Islam is founded on myth and legend.

One of the main points addressed in the link you provided can be formulated as follows: "Is the Qur'an we have today the same as the one revealed to prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him)? "
The answer is most certainly yes. To prove it, here is a useful link:

Is today's Qur'an the same as the one revealed 1400 years ago?

I still have a few problems with people who do not believe in God almighty (atheists). Here are a number of questions I'd like to see them answered:

1) Who created the Universe? (the answer: "by chance" is not convincing...)
2) Who created the human beings, gave them superb qualities and favored them over other creatures?
3) Is it a coincidence that Muhammad, Jesus and Moses (peace be upon them) agreed in saying that there is a God and that He is One?
4) Doesn't an atheist note that the vast majority of humans, all over the years, believed in God?
5) How does an atheist decide what is wrong and what is right?
6) What happens after our death?
...

May the peace and blessings of God (Allah) be upon his prophet Muhammad.

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muslim1 wrote:

All praise be to God (Allah), most Gracious, most Merciful.

brahmin;

Quote:
i have no misconceptions about islam.

Very nice. So you know exactly what Islam is. Why don't you become Muslim then?

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i know exactly who islamics are

Would you mind explaining the word 'islamics' for me?

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where islam is from

Since you have no misconception about Islam, you will agree that Islam is from your (and my) Creator, almighty God (Allah in Arabic).

Quote:
what it does

Islam shows us the true path to righteousness. Islam teaches us all what is good and right.
"Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah."[Holy Qur'an 3:110]

Quote:
its true that his wife made him lose doubts about the veracity of the archangel's messages, by seducing him.

also true that he received a timely er.. message that exonarated him from the crime of marrying a 9 year old.

From those two statements, it appears that you have very little knowledge about Islam. Before commenting on a matter, we have to know it first.
May I suggest that you read a translation of the Holy Qur'an (here is one :Holy Qur'an) carefully so that you can discuss Islam in a better position?

Quote:
the necessary serial numbers of the koranic allusions are supplied in both the articles i cut-pasted.

First we call them 'references', not 'serial numbers'. Secondly, the Qur'anic references appear only in your second article, not both. Please read carefully your cut & paste articles before posting them. Thirdly, the two Qur'anic references (from surah Al-Ahzab [Chapter 33]) in your second article, are completely out of context.

Quote:
as for the future fo islam

I would request you to expand more your opinion on this issue, especially when we know that Islam is growing fast in non-muslim countries (Praise be to God (Allah)), even in Muslim countries, people are returning to the true teachings of Islam.

Again, If you have any questions about Islam, I will be glad to try to answer them as best as I can.

to answer your questions -

a) its precisely because i have no misconceptions that i dont want to become a muslim. cos i know exactly what it is. secondly i am satisfied with my non islamic religion. thirdly there's no rule that says just because someone knows about another faith a lot, means he/she should convert to it.

b) islamics isnt probably a legitimate term. it was used to mean "the people who follow islam / the muslims" - but i expected readers to surmise that, and by the lack of queries regarding the term i used, i figure most of them managed to get the drift.

c) would i agree that it came from god ? no i wouldnt.

i am not so sure that there does exist a god/an entity called god.

but i really fail to see how my not having misconceptions, makes it implicit and mandatory for me to accept that it came from god.

i have few, if any, misconceptions about hippy-ism and the animal rights movement too - doesnt mean i believe they come from god (w/e god means)

you havent asked me another question at answer. you merely stated a few sentences / your opinions.

thanks for them though. you are free to believe or disbelieve in the cut - paste version i pasted.

you are also free to check their veracity by reading the relevant book, with or without my supplying the "serial numbers" to the "references"

and i have no furter questions about islam.

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I don't know if anyone can continue to say that there is a particular religion which we all should follow.

Granted, all things are ordained but there is also the phrase "There is a time and a place for everything under the sun...". Over time, and as people themselves change, teachings obviously should change. In the Christian O.T. God changed rules quite readily as the people progressed. No longer must people live by "the letter of the law," said Jesus, but "the heart of the law." Obviously we do not follow tons of laws in the O.T. meant for people living in ancient times when man was just a baby.

Christianity is a more forgiving religion as, over time, rules have changed. I think Muhammad was perfect for the people who live under these strict laws. But, perhaps it's time to loosen some laws that no longer apply, i.e., the women have the right to learn from a broader base of experience. Men could learn to control themselves instead of blaming women for "tempting them." For goodness sake does anyone think Christianity hasn't had similar laws - killing women for reasons concerning sex.

How really boooring, all this talk of what various people do with their sexual habits. The Catholic church talks too much of this issue, also. But, it also loosens laws and rules, over time. Slowly, but over time.

I am not impressed with all these web sites thrown up to make a particular religion the "one."

As a man thinketh, that shall he be.

"Out of a clean heart comes a clean life and a clean body. Out of a defiled mind proceeds a defiled life and a corrupt body."
....James Allen, England

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FACTS:

1) The majority of the world believe in the oneness of GOD. At least 3
billions of people are either Muslim or Christians.

IF GOD exist, then it is more likely that GOD guided those billions of People to believe in Him. And If there is no GOD like you claiming or at least no influence by Him, then it could be that the majority of Mankind believe in the Oneness of GOD out of Wisdom, experience and logic.

Both cases strongly support the fact that either GOD exist or , in case he does not exist as claimed by some, that Mankind have evoluted and reached Wisdom and have holy books that are followed by the majority.

Now if we prove that the Holy books do not contradict our recent discoveries then we will prove that it is the Creator GOD who wrote them because Man can't predict the future scientific discoveries .

2) A simple example I am including here that proves that the Quran is indeed written by GOD the all Knowing. Please read with an open-mind :

Before 7929 it was thought that fallacies or bit in haphazard manner seinilar to movement of the molecules of gazes however in 1929 ascintific break though turned this assumption up side down Hable discovered that these millions of phalanxes are gaudily distancing themselves from each other This process of distancing is getting accom plaited in great speed which some times is equal to a fraction of the speed of light Even those fallacies which are near to mear to our glassy (Milk way) with the exception of Andromida, are in contentions process of expansion.This means that the size of the cosmos is in con tenuous expansion . Allah says "And the sky we have created by hands we will enuzde As we know light is formed of seven different colors Each color has awe which has aseptic length vibration .The shortest awe the blue light has the highest vibration whereas the red light has the longest awe but it has the lowest vibration When Hable analyzed the light which comes from the galaxies he has studied he found that in all studied cases, with the exception of Andromida some other near by galaxies there is general widening of the red light . The more widening toward the red more distance of galaxies is from us After this discovering which was made by Hable it became evident that there are huge dark gaps behind these gaps there is a huge gravitational factor which leads to the red widening. Hence the cosmos is expanding from the point of start to the red ray. There fore aOwanic reality which states that "We will envied" has been now confirmed by science which assumes that the cosmos is having beginning from which it expands extends it self Allah says that He created the sky He is the one Who will expand it. This is what is going on now seine billions of years the Cosmos is in a continuos expansion. Many gastronomists have confirmed this fact. There fore it became an unchallenged and confirmed scientific fact. The cosmos is expanding the Earth is Globular rotates around itself rotates around the sun. All these are revealed in Dawn now since is confirming it Swore Irenic Verses in the light of science.

3) Are you sure that Atheists are smarter than the majority ??? Well, When the majority is worshipping GOD, pagans worship many GODS and atheists worship their Desirs. Example , I am a Muslim, I worship GOD only by following his laws that are included in the Quran and the Sunnah. Atheists worship their own desirs because their desirs tell them where to go ,what to choose and what not choose.

Conclusion :

Atheists are DESIRS worshippers. Isn't that dangerous for the World ?
If we all follow our desirs where this world gonna go ? Thanx GOD only few are Atheists.

Isn't humiliating if a person is a slave of his/her desirs ? or is it better to be a slave of the Creator only and be Free worshipping the desirs of this world ?

Michael

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Isn't humiliating if a person is a slave of his/her desirs ? or is it better to be a slave of the Creator only and be Free FROM worshipping the desirs of this world ?

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Muslim1

I wont attempt an answer to your circular question is the Koran now the same as it was: because the Koran says it is.

but to your specific questions

I answer

1. Who created the Universe? This is a leading question. Why does the universe need a creator? and if it does, who created the creator?

2. Who created human beings? Evolutionary forces and DNA.

3. jesus moses Mohammed etc. Co incidence? Billions of people agree (maybe not me you might be surprised to hear) that there is no God. Dont they outvote the 3 listed above? And in any case Jesus or the religion he founded said god is 3 not 1.

4. The vast majority believed in the same God as you do? No they did not.

5. Right and Wrong. Instinct. Altruism. Life promoting/life degrading. Moral codes. Law. Not very difficult really.

6. After death? I have no idea. And neither my friend do you.

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michael

whats desirs?

also who the hubble is Hable ??

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NewSoul wrote:

The majority of the world believe in the oneness of GOD. At least 3 billions of people are either Muslim or Christians.

Yeah, so what? They're all wrong... Britney Spears has sold millions of records; that doesn't mean she's talented, it means millions of people are stupid.

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thats a bit harsh agrote

but true Smile

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Or, as Anatole France said:

If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.

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Joe Sixpack and I cannot understand this thread. Sorry.

http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/outta.gif

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All Praise be to God (Allah), mot Gracious, most Merciful.

brahmin;

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its precisely because i have no misconceptions that i dont want to become a muslim. cos i know exactly what it is.

Since you know exactly what Islam is, can you describe it in a few sentences?

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i am satisfied with my non islamic religion.

Would you mind mentioning the name of your religion so that I can answer you in a proper way?

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there's no rule that says just because someone knows about another faith a lot, means he/she should convert to it.

I agree with you. Yet, Islam is an exception. All the people who knew exactly the truth of Islam reverted to it (Islam).

I'd like to check whether you know exactly what Islam is. If you don't mind, I'll ask you a question in each post:

- What are the five pillars of Islam, and what is the wisdom behind each one of them?

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michael

whats desirs?

Brother Michael meant "desires".
Desires: conscious impulses toward something that promises enjoyment or satisfaction in its attainment - sexual urge or appetite. From Merriam-Webster Dictionary.

sunlover;

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I don't know if anyone can continue to say that there is a particular religion which we all should follow.

I continue (an will continue, Allah willing) to say that Islam is the true religion that we should follow. I said we "should" not we "must". In fact, almighty God (Allah in Arabic) says: "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error" [Holy Qur'an 2:256]
We try our best to show people where the truth is. They are free to embrace it or to reject it.

agrote;

Quote:

Yeah, so what? They're all wrong... Britney Spears has sold millions of records; that doesn't mean she's talented, it means millions of people are stupid.

I think it's unfair to compare religion with music. Religion and belief is a most vital issue in our life unlike music.

Steve;

Thank you for responding to my six questions. Let's now discuss and analyse your answers:

Quote:

1. Who created the Universe? This is a leading question. Why does the universe need a creator? and if it does, who created the creator?

One of the attributes of the Creator is that He was not created. God (Allah), the Creator says:
"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.
" [Holy Qur'an Chapter 112]

The Universe needs to have been created. Take for example the stars and examine their constituents. They are mainly formed of Hydrogen and Helium. Who putted Hydrogen and Helium together to form the stars? who made the extraordinary interstellar matter (plasma) in the Universe?

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2. Who created human beings? Evolutionary forces and DNA.

First, your response recognizes that human beings are created, and that's good.
Secondly, the Creator is always superior to the 'created' in attributes, power, intelligence, design... Could you compare Evolutionary forces and DNA (which are Deaf, dumb, blind, with no intelligence...) to a human being?

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3. jesus moses Mohammed etc. Co incidence? Billions of people agree (maybe not me you might be surprised to hear) that there is no God. Dont they outvote the 3 listed above? And in any case Jesus or the religion he founded said god is 3 not 1.

First I am glad to see that you maybe believe in God.
As for messenger Jesus (peace be upon him), we Muslims believe that the original book revealed to him (the Injeel) was from God almighty and said that God in One and Only.
I totally agree with you that today, Christians say that god is 3 in 1(trinity). That's because the Bible we have today is not exactly the Injeel revealed.

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4. The vast majority believed in the same God as you do? No they did not.

In Islam, we are eliminating 'models of god' so that we worship the One and Only God who created everything and who is the Sustainer of the Universe. "And your Allah is One Allah. There is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. " [Holy Qur'an 2:163].

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5. Right and Wrong. Instinct. Altruism. Life promoting/life degrading. Moral codes. Law. Not very difficult really.

Who made that Instinct? Who established the Moral codes? What makes a person follow those rules?
As a Muslim, what makes me try my best to follow what is right, is the fact that I fear God (Allah), I know that there is an important "Day of Judgement" in which I'll be asked about all what I did in this life.

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6. After death? I have no idea. And neither my friend do you.

I know what will happen after death: All the human beings will be present in a "Day of Judgement" in which justice will be done to all the creations.
Honestly, Steve, do you think that criminals like Adolf Hitler or Josef Stalin took their deserved punishment in this life? In addition, many people were oppressed, killed and died without any rights. That's why God (Allah) will gather all the humanity in the "Day of Judgement" (Day here means 'long period of time') in which complete and perfect justice will be achieved. All praise be to God (Allah).

Brother NewSoul;

It's always a pleasure and honor for me to read your valuable posts. May God (Allah) reward you.

May the peace and blessings of God (Allah) be upon his messenger Muhammad.

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Brother Muslim1,

Your nickname reminds me of this Surat:

"And who is better in speech than he who invites to Allah and does righteous deeds, and says: 'I am one of the Muslims.'" [al-Qur'aan, Fussilat(41):33]

Brother, It is been always a pleasure and honor for me to read your valuable answers. I have learned a lot from reading your posts , May Allah reward you for your nice and clear answers and May Allah give you more Knowledge. Insha Allah if Allah forgives us and grant us Jannah I will be so honored to be your neighboor :-). Keep on working hard on yourself and May Allah accept our struggle on ourselves and accept our struggle to convey the message with the best of our knowledge. I have seen thru all my experiences from listening to others points of vues about Islam and the answers that Islam is providing that Islam is the Truth from GOD. I am so happy to say that I am one of the Muslims because I worship and fear none but Allah who has the right to be worshipped , alone, having no partner and that if I am going to be impressed by anything of this world I will only say : "Sub7ana Allah ( Glory Be To Allah) " & "Allah Akbar ( GOD is the Greatest )", because there is nothing that is in earth that does not belong tothe Creator.

Wassalam,

Salam,

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Steve,

Again your lack of Knowledge about Quran is what pushes you to make assumptions about the Quran. Read the Quran and see by your own self if it lacks overall structure or is any obscure or anything like that.

When you analyse a subject use facts and proofs instead of copy and paste not knowing what you are talking about. The Quran is challenging anybody to write something closer to it. First of all, any Arabic speaking person would tell you that the Quran is just so eloquent and unique and impossible to imitate. Second of all, thru all 1400 years there were several attempts of producing similar wording and eloquence by ennemies of Muhammad PBUH and ennemies of Islam after he passed away ( SAAWS) but those books could'nt and could never compete with the level of eloquence and beauty in the Quranic verses. If you read even a translation of the Quran you will see an extraordinary eloquence and purity of style in the word order or composition of the Quran.

Now, here is a challenge for you:

1- Bring me a book that is remembered by heart by more than 2 million people. More than 2 million people do remember by heart the Quran, and don't miss a word or even a period (.) .

----> Bring me a similar situation with any book that, let say 10 people, remember it by heart

2- Can you remember any book with 400 pages by heart ?

---->To make it easier for you

Can you remember any book with 100 pages by heart ?

FOR MORE ABOUT ASPECTS OF THE MIRACULOUSNESS OF THE QURAN'S ELOQUENCE go to :

http://www.thewaytotruth.org/theholyquran/aspects.html

http://www.thewaytotruth.org/theholyquran/aspects.html

Michael

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