Islamic Creationism

Muslim1 , Assalam Alaykum brother

I agree with you. Sometimes, ignorance is the problem behind the unfair assumptions and accusations that are pointed to Islam. Without any knowledge about what it is coming with they won't understand. The Quran proves that the "theory" of evolution is a MYTH. Mythology is used to mean lies also. Anyways, Darwinism, materialism and communism believe in matter not in spirit. Darwin himself regarded his theory based on assumptions. Darwinism has been scientifically rejected. The defeat of Darwinism in the faces of science can be reviewed under three basic topics:

1- The Darwinism theory cannot scientifically explain how life originated on Earth.

2- No scientific finding shows that the "evolutionary mechanism" proposed by the theory have any evolutionary power at all.

3- The fossil record provided proves the exact opposite of what the theory suggests.


The evolutionists' claim that the universe started from "first atom" and life started from "first cell". Who created the atom and cell, the evolutionists cannot answer. Inanimate matter must have produced a living cell as a result of coincidence in the belief of the evolutionists. Modern biologists have rejected this claim. Life comes from life has been proved. The theory of "spontaneous generation", which asserts that non-living materials came together to form living organism has been rejected.

I will stop here this time.

As an advise to all, Rather than assuming things, what I do is to research and read all the data I find concerning a subject then from there I look for the more credible things in what I have read and reject the non-sense. I usually look for proofs then if the proofs are clear I accept it. Isn't it the only way to express Freedom from what others report to you, Freedom of choosing the way you use your mind ?. I heard before that Islam was not good from people, but I wanted a 100% true answer so I researched Islam and guess what , I found out a total opposite of what people claimed. No wonder why 1.5 billion Muslims are in the world now and no Wonder why only 18% of them are Arabs. No wonder why I am a Muslim.

No wonder why Islam is the fastest Growing religion in the US.

I don't claim to know much about Islam yet, but the Islamic opinion on the theory of Evolution has recently been brought to my attention, and I disagree strongly with that aspect of your belief system, at the very least.



Of course Evolution is a theory. I am not a dishonest person, why would I lie and say that Evolutition is undoubtedly true? All I claim is that it is the best theory of the origin of species that I have come across, and it fits known scientific facts about genetics, etc. a damn sight better than the theory of creation.



Scientists are, by their job description, objective, and interested only in discovering scientific facts. If the theory of evolution had been disproved, somebody would have told me by now - it would be all over the news, and the scientific community would be in a state of mass panic/excitement. Bet they're not. Let's be honest with each other. you might have evidence for creationism, or evidence that contradicts the theory of evolution, but you do not yet have proof that the theory of evolution is incorrect. As it stands, there is evidence for and against it, that is all.

I disagree with your use of the word 'proof' there, I suggest you look it up in a dictionary. The Qu'ran proves nothing at all. If anything, it provides evidence against the theory of evolution, that is all.



That is simply not true. Regardless of whether or not it is the correct theory, Darwinism is still widely embraced by the scientific community as the best explanation for the origin of species.



The theory that my body needs water to survive cannot scientifically explain why orange juice tastes so nice. So what? Darwinism explains how species evolve; why does it need to explain how life originated on Earth?



Again, you are just not telling the truth. There is a wealth of evidence supporting the theory.



I don't know about that, can you give me some literature backing up that claim?

I see know the extent to which my beliefs differ from yours. Indeed I do believe in matter, and not in spirit. Why woudl I need a sould when I have a perfectly good, conscious brain? Anyway that's a seperate debate, and there's been millions of threads on it before.

well said agrote. You have more patience than I do. Its time to fight fire with fire imo.

that is

Fundamentalist Irrational Religious Extremism

with

Factual Intelligible Rational Explanation.

There are two types of overtly religious people, the deluded and the dangerously deluded. These people are dangerous and their ideas should be rigorously exposed for what they are...medieval stuff and nonsense.

I with you all the way.

agrote , I think I told you exactly why the Theory of Evolution is a MYTH simply because there is no Evolution but there is a Creator . If you refer to my previous replies you would understand that Darwinism is a Myth. I can go on an'on telling you what is wrong with it and show you strong proofs but it is not worth it. You are just blind and deaf. you have already sealed your heart and choose your way, unless there is a miracle. You have forgotten that you are a small arrogant thing that belongs to the Creator . Ask yourself if you really think that you know the truth or you just don' t wanna bother and this short life and your desires control the way you go without thinking where you go. Anyhow,

Peace out

Michael

thats all! they've put up a few posters!

why are you so scared?

have you talked to them?

are they going to harm you in any way?

are they not entitled to their opinion?

Dear agrote;



Can you give me examples of those "facts" ?



What you described as "theory" of creation is indeed the FACT of creation. All the major religions agree that we all come from Adam and Eve. God almighty created the human beings and dignified them; the "theory" of evolution degrade the dignity of Man.



I would request you to read the Holy Qur'an. You can't judge a book without reading it, it's unscientific.



Again, a very general statement. What evidence (real and scientific evidence) can support the theory?



Who created that brain? The brain is a very complex system, no human can create it, nor it can be created by itself. The only remainnig solution is that the brain is created by almighty God (Allah in Arabic), the creator of the universe.



God (Allah) give religious people more patience.



Is the Holy Qur'an a "medieval stuff "? Have a look on the following link, where you will find a complete concialiation between the Holy Qur'an (revealed 1400 years ago) and modern science:

Qur'an and modern science



Why are our ideas dangerous? Can't we express ourselves freely?
Yet, be sure, no one on the Earth can prevent us from saying the truth of almighty God (Allah).

Best Regards.

Muslim1 asks "Why are our ideas dangerous?"

Why do you repress women?
Why do you mutilate the genitalia of children?
Why do you force rote learning of the Koran and call it education?
Why do you ritually slaughter animals?
Why do you promise paradise for jihadists?
Why are you intolerant of Jews and Christians?
Why, if Mohammed was illiterate but surrounded by scribes, does not one piece of original writing exist?
Why if the Koran is the perfect word of God, were earlier versions found in the roof spaces of the great mosque at S'ana, Yemen?
Why is there still a fatwa on the life of Salman Rushdie?
Why does sharia law allow for stoning to death of women for having sex outside marriage?
Why, if Islam is a peaceful religion, did it spread by violence?
Why, if Mohammed had several wives already, did he take a girl of 8 or 9 for another wife.
Why don't you acknowledge what it is, paedophilia?
Why, just about wherever there is religious conflict in the world, is ONE SIDE INEVITABLY MUSLIM? Muslim/Jew Muslim/Christian Muslim/Hindu Muslim Sunni/Muslim Shia Muslims against Ba'athi, Zororastrian etc etc..getting tired now.


Some people say the tsunami was an act of God. Not true, it was 9/11 that was inspired by religion.

Islam is harmful to women children and animals. It holds back societies. It keeps people in poverty and ignorance. It inspires the gullible and the desperate to commit violent acts for no earthly reward. It has taken the West several hundred years to break away from the dead hand of religious dogma. Look at the progress the West has made since the Enlightenment and the application of the scientific method. Islam would take us back to primitivism. Thats why its dangerous. And that is why I am intolerant of intolerance.

But not of course of you, just the misguided ideas you hold.

Steve. you are such an ignorant . You don't know the difference between a Culture of people and Islam. Islam fought and still fights pagan way of life like killing raping women and basically treating them like second class or servants. You don't even know a bit of Islam, the only religion that doesn't blame Eve on Adam's sin, the only religion that doesn't compare Women to prostitutes. Muslim Women are so pure and so well educated.

Muslim Women prefer to dress up modestly and that's their choice et they are Free to do whatever aint it ? Unless you wanna make em look like low prostitutes against their freedom. Talking about Freedom and Democratie, you donno nothing about that. Women that we , the US, claimed liberated , do you think they will leave Islam, no way my friend, they didn't. They all know that it is the best for them because it is the truth from GOD. Besides that, why Catholic Women wear veils, those my friend they are the one who are oppressed , they have no rights, get raped and live a miserable life. Did anybody talk about them ???????????????? Go liberate them too but they won't cuz they chose that way. Why people are so stubborn? why they wanna impose some crapy values like wearing Mini skirts and booties and getting sex like animals ????? ISn't it a shame

What situation you prefer, to have a wife that goes out to bars and men calling her sexy and try to get her to bed and when the woman does it so many times and you find out about it she says sorry and end of the story or you prefer a righteous woman that dress up in a way to avoid attracting other men cuz she is Married and have a solid Marriage.

Are you telling me you are the one that respect Women or it is Islam that teachs Women how to be humble and protect them from rape or any other Harmful Evil. Go look at Divorce rates in Muslim Countries. Go oversees to get educated, you will be surprised how happy these communities are. Leave them alone from your EVIL. I am a White, pure, American my friend. I was nasty and close-minded like you. I watched TV like you probably and didn't even know where Pakistan was. The American people are not all like that though cuz they have values and now they start to understand and respect Muslims and no wonder why so many are converting to Islam.

You donno nothing about Muslim Women. You get killed if you try to approach real Muslim women cause they are not prostitutes. Islam is so proud of Muslim Women cuz they are the best in terms of trust, love, and familly orientation.

Do you know that :

Islam declared women and men equal.

Islam condemned pre-Islamic practices degrading and oppressing women.

The same injunctions and prohibitions of Islam equally apply to both sexes.

Islam gave woman the right of inheritance and the right of individual independent ownership unhampered by father, husband, brother, son or anyone else.

Islam gave women the right to accept or reject a marriage proposal free from pressure, and by mutual agreement to specify in the marriage contract that she has the right to divorce (if she misses that option she has the right to seek court divorce if she deems the marriage to have failed beyond repair).

Islam does not require woman to change her name at marriage.

Islam protects the family and condemns the betrayal of marital fidelity. It recognizes only one type of family: husband and wife united by authentic marriage contract.

"Heaven is at the feet of mothers", is a basic Islamic teaching.

"The best of you are the kindest to their wives and I am your best to mine", is a teaching by prophet Mohammad.

Islam enjoins sounds morality in thinking, behavior and appearance. Dress fashions and social patterns that reduce woman to a sex object and exploit her as such are not acceptable to Islam.

The observance of chastity and moral standards is equally demanded by Islam from both men and women. "Women are the siblings of men", is a saying of prophet Mohammad.

I understand that it is your opinion that Evolution is a myth.



You assume that, because I dsagree with you, I must be arrogant and close-minded. Don't you think that's a little unfair? Keep your stereotypes about non-religious people to yourself please. You say that I have "sealed my heart and chosen my way." Isn't that exactly what you have done? While I am not arrogant enough to claim that evolution has been proven to be true (it is of course a very credible theory, just like the theory of gravity or the theory of relativity), you claim to know that evolution is a 'myth' and that the teachings of the Qu'ran are true. You have made up your mind - you have "sealed your heart"

Contrary to what you think you know about me, I am willing to consider evidence against the theory of evolution - I do want to know the truth - so please don't feel that quote scientific studies to me is futile. Please go ahead, back up your beliefs, I won't just shout you down. I'll argue.

Well I'll admit I'm not terrified - I'm not tembling or anything. But I always thought that creationism was a findamentalist christian thing that was a big problem in American but nto so much here, and I was surprised to discover that actually a lot of British people do believe in creationism and reject evolution. I was just surprised really.

Something that did scare me though was their associating the theory with Hitler - that's nothing but propaganda. Whether or not the theory is correct, it is unfair to label all evolutionists 'fascists,' and that is what the muslims here were doing.



Of course they are. I'm not arguing that muslims aren't entitled to their opinions. I'm jsut arguing that their opinions are wrong... am I entitled to that opinion?

You can't just throw around the words 'proof' and 'fact' as you see fit. It is a fact there is not yet conclusive proof that either evolution or creation is definitely true. There is only evidence for evolution and evidence for creation, and it will probably remain that way. There's no proof that gravity is true either - gravity is just a theory, if a very strongly supported and plausible one. I accept that you believe that creation is true, and that there is evidence supporting you, but please don't be so aggorant as to claim that creation is a fact - you don't know that creation is true, you believe it is.

Evidence is on the way, as requested... just allow me some time to find you some links and stuff.

Not equal, similar, but men are a degree above them.

2:228And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them


Oh?

4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.


Oh?

4:15 As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation).



Yes, half.

4:11 Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half.



Then there is this thing about captives.

4:24 And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.

Dear mesquite;

Thank you first of all for having a look on the Holy Qur'an. Yet, I don't know which translation are you using? I advice you the translation of Abdullah Yusuf Ali. The better situation will be to learn Arabic and read it in the language it was revealed with.

Let's examine your points one by one:

- Equality between men and women

In Islam, men and women are equal but not identical. Every one of the two sexes has physical and psycological particularities, every one has a role to play according to her/his capabilities. Yet, they are completely equal in rights and duties.

- Inheritance

In Islam a woman has no financial obligation and the economical responsibility lies on the shoulders of the man. Before a woman is married it is the duty of the father or brother to look after the lodging, boarding, clothing and other financial requirements of the woman. After she is married it is the duty of the husband or the son. Islam holds the man financially responsible for fulfilling the needs of his family. In order to do be able to fulfill the responsibility the men get double the share of the inheritance.
For example, if a man dies leaving about 15 000 $. He has a son and a daughter. The son inherits 10 000 $ and the daughter only 5 000 $. Out of the 10 000 which the son inherits, as his duty towards his family, he may have to spend on them almost the entire amount or say about 8 000 and thus he has a small percentage of inheritance, say about 2 000, left for himself. On the other hand, the daughter, who inherits 5 000 is not bound to spend a single penny on anybody. She can keep the entire amount for herself. Would you prefer inheriting 10 000 $ and spending 8 000 from it, or inheriting 5 000 $ and having the entire amount to yourself?

- Pre-Islam practices

Of course Islam condemned pre-Islamic practices degrading and oppressing women, well said brother NewSoul. In fact, almighty God says in the Holy Qur'an:

"When the female (infant), buried alive, is questioned -
For what crime she was killed"
[Qur'an 81,8-9]

Before Islam, in the desert of Arabia, people used to bury their childs alive if they are females. If Islam came to degrade women why did it ban that horrible practice?

- Women accepting or rejecting marriageagrote;

You are more and more logical in your replies and I appreciate that. I am waiting for your (specific and clear) evidence. I invite you again to read more about Islam.


Dear Steve (as 41oo);

You are very aggressive in you replies. I understand the effect of the media which does not appreciate the fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the West.
I truly invite you, my friend, to use your logic (given to you by your Creator, almighty God) to study Islam without pre-established ideas.

Best Regards.

Okay, first of all I've got a good link here that provides some good responses to some of the points people have made in this thread: http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/cpurrin1/textbookdisclaimers/wackononsense.pdf

For example, it answers the argument that evolution is just a theory, the claim that evolution is beign rejected by the scientitific community, and the objection that it does not explain how life begin on earth. Definitely worth a read. Let's make a deal, I'll try and learn more abotu islam and yo utry and learn more about evolution and why people believe it to be true. Okay?

Now here's something of what you've requested, specific and clear evidence for the theory of evolution: http://www.gate.net/~rwms/hum_ape_chrom.html

That's from a website that contains lots of other evidence for evolution: http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoEvidence.html

Here's an abstract for a study that has found evidence for 'molecular evolution': http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/71/7/2843

Here's a link to a site that will tell you about Darwin's Finches, which he used as evidence for his theory: http://www.rit.edu/~rhrsbi/GalapagosPages/DarwinFinch.html

Here's some general information about the type of evidence we have supportign the theory of evolution: http://bioweb.cs.earlham.edu/9-12/evolution/HTML/live.html

Finally, here's a good article opposing creationism and creation science: http://www.skepdic.com/creation.html

Is that sufficient?

On the learning about Islam bit - good book I'm reading right now is Islam by Alfred Guillaume (mine is a Penguin paperback).

Here's a link to a sort of review

http://www.renaissance.com.pk/junbore20.htm

mesquite you quoted

And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them(Q2.228)

This verse occurs among a series of verses referring to the required period of separation before claiming a divorce. The degree of advantage refers to man's being able to individually initiate divorce, whereas a woman can seek divorce only after intervention of an authority. So the advantage is limited to the circumstances of divorce only. Why this advantage? Most likely, because it is he who is duty- bound to support to the wife and unborn baby, and the previous verses are referring to the possibility that during separation the woman may be expecting, and if so, the man needs to give due consideration to taking her back because of his responsibility towards the unborn child. Hence, he has the responsibility/ decision about validating the divorce or taking his wife back.


you also quoted

4:11 Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half.

but this only applies to when a will is not made. if a will is drawn up a person can leave their money to who ever they want. the men need the money because they bear the financial responsibilities.

When I mentioned Arrogance I meant Arrogance towards the Creator. You can be arrogant with me as much as you can, we are equal.


Do you wanna hear an example of how Islam is so ahead in terms of respect of Women and human rights ?

A Woman in the West does not get a 7 days rest from Work every Month when they have their "Period"s. Do you know that Islam, orders Women to rest and relax and the Husbamnd should do everything at work and in the house. Don't you know how painful that is to a Woman who is obliged in the West to work hard to survive. She will get fired and broke if she asks for a 5 days vacation every month. Men in Islam have the duty to work hard because of many reasons and one reason is that a Woman has the right to rest and do easy work in the house whenever she can. A Woman in Islam if free to choose either to stay home or to work. If you just paid attention to the Islamic law, you will find that Women have more rights than Men because of the way they were created . Another Example is that, any money a Woman makes makes is hers and it is the husband duty to pay all the expenses and provide anything his wife wants as long as he is able to afford it. More, he has no right in Islam to ask for money. Don't you see any Wisdom in Islam? Just like a Woman covers her hair to look humble in the society and avoid any attraction of Men , a Man grow a beard to look serious to not let any women approach them. Isn't that the only way to save everybody trouble in this world knowing how we can't control all of our desires ? Islam saves from adultry, cheating, betrayal, sex in public, deadly diseases, drugs, ....all evil things. We need a society to live in humbleness, peace and respect of others feelings and that is what a Muslim society is, a pure example of dignity, respect and happiness. As much as the West tries to impose their wrong ideas about life as much as people get stronger in faith because they see a proof of ignorance when they compare their values to the West's. That is a point that our politicians forget. You can not understand the values of Islam until you study it and live it. You do not know what you are missing though cuz now I am a very happy person. Couple years ago I was living like a Satan , dating, cheating on girls, ..etc but was never in a state of happiness like now. Before I didn't value life, didn't see the blessings that God provided to me and to the world, I was so arrogant towards God, I thought I was better than many, I thought I was superior than others, I thought I knew it all. Now I do know who I am and I do have a goal in life.