A "Fuming" John Kerry

DontTreadOnMe wrote:

Baldimo wrote:
I don't see the need for a draft, we have the people we need. Being in the military I can tell you that even the military doesn't want a draft.

Why don't you talk to Charley Rangel and ask him about the draft?

Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.

I was not questioning his service; I was questioning why he tried to put a bill through congress to react the draft and then voted against it after the election. I could careless that he served it had to do with him playing cheap political games with the public before the election to try to swing it in his parties favor.

kelticwizard wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
National Guardsmen take the same oath as regular Army, Airforce, etc. and they know going in that they are subject to being called up to active duty at any time during their usual eight years of service.

Quite true. But the whole idea of the National Guard is for these people to remain primarily stateside, protecting the homeland, especially in times when the regular forces are overseas.

I don't believe we have ever fought an overseas war with such a large percentage of the fighting force being National Guardsmen, have we? Not even during WWII.

And if we have plenty of people, why the "backdoor draft" where the National Guardsmen are required to stay many, many months past the normal tour of duty?

We had plenty of NG serving in Vietnam; it is not unknown to have the NG fill in when they are needed.

You really have to stop using the false term "back door draft". It is not a true term and is some sort of anti-war BS term. The military serves at the behest of the Commander and Chief. When the military is tasked with a mission, we perform that mission. I do not know what the complaint is, during WWII people left the states and were gone for up to 4 years and did not return home. This whole notion of having to be there for only a year is only a minimum and not a maximum. You can have up to 18 months with boots in the sand. The only difference between Reserve, NG and Active Military is the fact that NG and Reserves can only be over seas for up too 24 months and then you are not sent back again. This does not have to take place all at once and can span any amount of time up to and including 24 months. I think a change has been made or is going to be made to expand that time to 3 or 4 years. When you sign the contract, you sign a commitment and your honor for that number of years. If you do not like it then you should have thought twice before joining.

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Quote:

If you do not like it then you should have thought twice before joining.

Yeah, because 18-year olds can be trusted to make life decisions with any degree of intelligence or forethought. Let's make sure to hold them responsible until we get everything we possibly can out of 'em.

Rolling Eyes

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
If you do not like it then you should have thought twice before joining.

Yeah, because 18-year olds can be trusted to make life decisions with any degree of intelligence or forethought. Let's make sure to hold them responsible until we get everything we possibly can out of 'em.

Cycloptichorn

18 year olds can make decisions to have sex, have abortions seek medical attention without their parents consent get tattoos and piercing and any number of things that would require a life like decision but the military isn't one that counts?

I do not get how you want them to be so grown up with things you agree with but when it comes to things you do not like they are not old enough or mature enough to make up their own minds. Either get consistent or change the way you think, they are adults.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
If you do not like it then you should have thought twice before joining.

Yeah, because 18-year olds can be trusted to make life decisions with any degree of intelligence or forethought. Let's make sure to hold them responsible until we get everything we possibly can out of 'em.

Cycloptichorn

look i have no problem with 18 year olds joining the military by their own decision. for some of the guys i see around l.a., it's the only way they have to make a clean escape out of "the hood".

but where i do have a problem is when the recruiters from the station up the street come up to my wife (she runs the ged program for the local community college ) and ask around for her to fudge some kid's ged score so he can get in. occassionally they've gotten pretty agressive and one even started up with the "are you anti-war or something ?" routine.

not to mention, old enough to carry a gun for the government, old enough to have a beer.

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Baldimo wrote:

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
Baldimo wrote:
I don't see the need for a draft, we have the people we need. Being in the military I can tell you that even the military doesn't want a draft.

Why don't you talk to Charley Rangel and ask him about the draft?

Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.

I was not questioning his service; I was questioning why he tried to put a bill through congress to react the draft and then voted against it after the election. I could careless that he served it had to do with him playing cheap political games with the public before the election to try to swing it in his parties favor.

sorry baldi, meant to address this first. i've repeatedly heard rangel explain that his premise was this, if everybody's kids, including the members of congress, were subject to the draft, they may have thought a little more before giving bush a blank check on iraq. also, he asserts that there's a real disparity in the ratio of poorer kids versus wealthier kids that join the service.

but don't rule the draft out yet, baldi. push may still come to shove in iraq. if america pulls out and leaves nothing but a fubar of a country behind, it's gonna be horrible for the iraqis and even worse for the already shaky credibility of our country.

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mysteryman wrote:

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld
Mr. Rumsfeld attended Princeton University on academic and NROTC scholarships (A.B., 1954) and served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor. In 1957, he transferred to the Ready Reserve and continued his Naval service in flying and administrative assignments as a drilling reservist until 1975. He transferred to the Standby Reserve when he became Secretary of Defense in 1975 and to the Retired Reserve with the rank of Captain in 1989.

Secretary of Veterans Affairs Jim Nicholson
He is a 1961 graduate of the United States Military Academy at West Point, N.Y. He served eight years on active duty as a paratrooper and Ranger-qualified Army officer, then 22 years in the Army Reserve, retiring with the rank of colonel. While serving in Vietnam, he earned the Bronze Star Medal, Combat Infantryman Badge, the Meritorious Service Medal, Republic of Vietnam Cross of Gallantry and two Air Medals.

Secretary of Transportation Norman Y. Mineta
After graduating from the University of California at Berkeley, Mineta joined the Army in 1953 and served as an intelligence officer in Japan and Korea.

Attorney General Alberto Gonzales
Gonzales served in the United States Air Force between 1973 and 1975, and attended the United States Air Force Academy between 1975 and 1977

oh, good. i love it when this comes up...

Military Records Of Prominent Figures
Oct 28, 2004

DEMOCRATS

Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.
David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.

Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.

Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade.

Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.

Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47; Medal of Honor, WWII.

John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V Purple Hearts.

John Edwards: did not serve.

Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.
Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam.

Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-1953.

Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.
Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII, receiving the Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons.

Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.

Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57

George McGovern: Silver Star & DFC during WWII.

Bill Clinton: Did not serve. Student deferments. Entered draft but received 311.

Jimmy Carter: Seven years in the Navy.

Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953

Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg.

Wesley Clark: U.S. Army, 1966-2000, West Point, Vietnam, Purple Heart, Silver Star. Retired 4-star general.

REPUBLICANS

Dennis Hastert: did not serve.

Tom Delay: did not serve.

House Whiip Roy Blunt: did not serve.

Bill Frist: did not serve.

Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.

George Pataki: did not serve.

Mitch McConnell: did not serve.

Rick Santorum: did not serve.

Trent Lott: did not serve.

Dick Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage.

John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.

Jeb Bush: did not serve.

Karl Rove: did not serve.

Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.

Richard Perle: did not serve.

Douglas Feith: did not serve.

Eliot Abrams: did not serve.

Christopher Cox: did not serve.

Newt Gingrich: did not serve.

Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as aviator and flight instructor.

George W. Bush: six-year Nat'l Guard commitment (in four).

Gerald Ford: Navy, WWII

Phil Gramm: did not serve.

John McCain: Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross.

Bob Dole: an honorable veteran.

Chuck Hagel: two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, Vietnam.

Duke Cunningham: nominated for Medal of Honor, Navy Cross, Silver Stars, Air Medals, Purple Hearts.

Jeff Sessions: Army Reserves, 1973-1986

JC Watts: did not serve.

Tom Ridge: Bronze Star for Valor in Vietnam.

Antonin Scalia: did not serve.

Clarence Thomas: did not serve

PUNDITS

Sean Hannity: did not serve.

Rush Limbaugh: did not serve.

Bill O'Reilly: did not serve.

Michael Savage: did not serve.

George Will: did not serve.

Chris Matthews: did not serve.

Paul Gigot: did not serve.

Bill Bennett: did not serve.

Pat Buchanan: did not serve.

Bill Kristol: did not serve.

Kenneth Starr: did not serve.

Michael Medved: did not serve.

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Baldimo wrote:

We had plenty of NG serving in Vietnam; it is not unknown to have the NG fill in when they are needed.

Sorry, but that statement is simply an untruth. There were very, very few National Guard troops that ever made it over to VietNam.

USA Today wrote:

During the 12-year-long Vietnam War, for example, fewer than 100 Guard troops were killed.

USA Today

Baldimo wrote:

You really have to stop using the false term "back door draft".

Sorry, but I think I'll hold onto it. Very Happy

Baldimo wrote:

It is not a true term and is some sort of anti-war BS term.

No, it is a very good term to describe what is happening.

Baldimo wrote:

I do not know what the complaint is, during WWII people left the states and were gone for up to 4 years and did not return home. This whole notion of having to be there for only a year is only a minimum and not a maximum.

A) In World War II the stakes were enormous-Europe was about to fall to an enemy who was near equal in strength to us. This Iraq war, however, war was sold to us as a walkover.

B) In WWII the National Guard units were mostly nationalized-essentially you transferred from the conventional Guard into the regular service. Here, they didn't do that. They didn't have the honesty. They just keep extending the terms of overseas service again and again. There is no transfer to the regular service-it might constitute an admission that we are in a lot deeper than we were ever told we would be.

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DTOM's list of who served is interesting but just doing a quick head count, I'm guessing a whole raft of Democrats who didn't serve were omitted and a whole raft of Republicans who did were omitted. I honestly don't care enough to look it up though.

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Don'tTreadOnMe wrote:

Rush Limbaugh: did not serve.

He couldn't. His doctor said he had, ahem, ahem, anal warts.

Heavens. What would ever cause those in an 18 year old boy?

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kelticwizard wrote:

Don'tTreadOnMe wrote:
Rush Limbaugh: did not serve.

He couldn't. His doctor said he had, ahem, ahem, anal warts.

Heavens. What would ever cause those in an 18 year old boy?

really ???

i read it was a polynidal cyst. which struck me as kinda funny. basically it's a condition left over from when we still had tails. a boil like cyst grows at the tailbone. it really hurts like hell.

i had one when i was 18. went to the doctor. he lanced it. i sat on a pillow for a day and all was well.

but rush quite often displays his creativity with the facts, doesn't he.

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Foxfyre wrote:

DTOM's list of who served is interesting but just doing a quick head count, I'm guessing a whole raft of Democrats who didn't serve were omitted and a whole raft of Republicans who did were omitted. I honestly don't care enough to look it up though.

perhaps foxy. but you can't deny that, with a few exceptions like hagle and mccain, the upper echelon of the current republican party and it's biggest cheerleaders were not in the military, ever. as opposed to a lot of he dems.

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Why was Colin Powell not listed as serving?
Is it because he is a black man that went to the very top,and that proves that minorities CAN do it,or was it because he was highly decorated?

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You're right, mysteryman. Colin Powell should not only be listed but listened to, a fact missed by the current administration.

Quote:

DTOM's list of who served is interesting but just doing a quick head count, I'm guessing a whole raft of Democrats who didn't serve were omitted and a whole raft of Republicans who did were omitted. I honestly don't care enough to look it up though.

Two questions:
1) Which Dems are missing?
2) Which other thinkers on the right believe that military service is not a worthy character reference?

no,

three questions:

3) What size blinders are you wearing?

Joe(How about if we just list the people voting for the Iraq war?)Nation

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Poor John Kerry. He is almost as dead politically as Al Gore. Hillary Clinton is, without doubt, the Democrat's best available option for 2008.

It remains to be seen if the Democrat party can escape the clutches of its menagerie of single issue idealogues, who, so far, only object to and obstruct what the current administration is trying to do, but offer nothing of their own to address the issues before us.

It also remains to be seen if Hillary can repeat the performance of her husband who posed as a centrist, in contrast to the loonies of his party, in 1992. Clearly she is working on this gambit and will do all she can to contrast herself with the loonie stalwarts, so ably represented by Party Chairman, John Dean.

The best thing the Democrats have going for them now is that there is as yet no viable Republican candidate on the scene who could defeat them.

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I'm sure the Pope will pick someone out for the GOP soon.

Joe (No one's ever taken the oath with both hands on the Bible before)Nation

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Well like I said, I don't care enough who served and who didn't to do the research. The list, however, comes from a website that bills itself "fair and balanced, just like Fox News' Smile

http://awolbush.com/whoserved.html

I'm much more interested in ABC's attempted 'expose'' of Fox's flagship phenomenon "American Idol'.

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DontTreadOnMe wrote:

i read it was a polynidal cyst. which struck me as kinda funny.

i had one when i was 18. went to the doctor. he lanced it. i sat on a pillow for a day and all was well.

Well that doesn't sound very major. Does it strike you that it would keep somebody from serving in the armed forces?

Some things to remember:

A) The draft decisions were local. Primarily, the local boards decided what evidence medical evidence in giving medical exemptions.

B) The Limbaugh family was a powerful, powerful family indeed in Cape Girardeau, MO, Limbaugh's hometown. The elder Limbaugh was in a position to have his finger in every political pie, including local draft boards.

C) This was in the late 1960's, pre-litigation. Doctor's words were taken pretty much as the The Word Of God. Nobody really scrutinized their diagnoses, nobody ever sued the doctor. An influential fellow like the elder Limbaugh gets one of his doctor cronies to examine Limbaugh....and suddenly we have a diagnoses which explains why despite the fact that 300 people a week were dying in VietNam, Rush can't go into the service because of his anal cysts.

I am not saying there is no such thing as a polynoidal cyst. But it is a rare condition, and I have to wonder why, when the service is starving for manpower, it would keep someone out of the service. If the distrubance down there really was a polynoidal cyst, that is.

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A polynoidal cyst is neither uncommon nor is the abcess that can occur with them non serious though I doubt it is considered a life threateneing condition.
http://www.emedicine.com/aaem/topic350.htm

Because of the fairly large number of these that have shown up in my family, I suspect they are congentital at least to some degree.

At any rate, Rush did report for the draft and he was rejected. If it had been one of the darlings on the left in the same circumstances, I am reasonably certain there would be no judgmentalism from the left.

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Foxfyre's Medical Source wrote:

Another theory is that pilonidal cysts are acquired through trauma to the sacrococcygeal region. During World War II, more than 80,000 soldiers developed pilonidal cysts that required a hospital stay. People thought the cysts were due to irritation from riding in bumpy Jeeps. For a while it was actually called "Jeep disease."

So one cause of the alleged condition which kept Limbaugh out of the service is when the rear end takes a pounding over a prolonged time.

Okay.

I might point out that right after receiving his medical deferment, Rush dropped right out of college which had been keeping him out of the service up to that time.

Draw your own conclusions.

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According to Snopes he reported to the military ater he dropped out of college and thus was no longer eligible for a college deferment. Did he use legal draft avoidance? The verdict is still out on that. But the fact is, he did report to the military and he was rated ineligible at that time.

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A "Fuming" John Kerry

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