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A "Fuming" John Kerry

 
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 09:49 pm
No wonder Kerry lost. Not even the Democrats were listening when he spoke LOL!
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 10:24 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
And here is the most charitable summary I could find of Al Gore's involvement with the internet
http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue5_10/wiggins/


Fine. So let's examine an excerpt from your own link which illustrates how important Gore was in taking the internet to where it is today. Note: Robert Kahn and Vinton Cerf were the people who developed the protocols used on the internet today. If you are going to trace a moment where the internet was actually born, it would be the moment when the modern protocols were developed:


"Al Gore and the Internet

By Robert Kahn and Vinton Cerf


.... as the two people who designed the basic architecture and the core protocols that make the Internet work, we would like to acknowledge VP Gore's contributions as a Congressman, Senator and as Vice President. No other elected official, to our knowledge, has made a greater contribution over a longer period of time.

Last year the Vice President made a straightforward statement on his role. He said: "During my service in the United States Congress I took the initiative in creating the Internet." ......Moreover, there is no question in our minds that while serving as Senator, Gore's initiatives had a significant and beneficial effect on the still-evolving Internet. The fact of the matter is that Gore was talking about and promoting the Internet long before most people were listening.

.... This "Gore Act" supported the National Research and Education Network (NREN) initiative that became one of the major vehicles for the spread of the Internet beyond the field of computer science.

As Vice President Gore promoted building the Internet both up and out, as well as releasing the Internet from the control of the government agencies that spawned it. He served as the major administration proponent for continued investment in advanced computing and networking and private sector initiatives such as Net Day. He was and is a strong proponent of extending access to the network to schools and libraries. Today, approximately 95% of our nation's schools are on the Internet. Gore provided much-needed political support for the speedy privatization of the Internet when the time arrived for it to become a commercially-driven operation.

....No one in public life has been more intellectually engaged in helping to create the climate for a thriving Internet than the Vice President. Gore has been a clear champion of this effort, both in the councils of government and with the public at large.

The Vice President deserves credit for his early recognition of high speed computing and communication and for his long-term and consistent articulation of the potential value of the Internet to American citizens and industry and, indeed, to the rest of the world."
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kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 10:41 pm
Gore never said he "invented the internet". He said he "took the initiative in creating the internet". And as the two inventors of the internet protocols made clear, that means Gore gave vital legislative and funding aid to convert the then tiny network known only to the academic community into the ubiquitous communication system that it has become.

Frankly, I am somewhat disappointed that Gore let the Republicans claim he "invented the internet", and never pursued the matter. I feel what he should have done is to apologize to the public for an unclear choice of words while emphasizing what he actually did in helping to build the internet.

At that time, 2000, many people were still getting introduced to the internet for the first time, and Gore would have rightly been admired for being a forward looking legislator helping to create a new industry and communication system.

Instead, Gore just lay back, laughed along with the jokes, and let the Republicans get away with the idea that he made a tremendous verbal gaffe. He let the Republicans take the issue right away from him, when it should have been a tremendous plus for his side. Bad mistake.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 11:00 pm
The reason I posted the link, Keltic, was because it was the most complete record I could find. Obviously, even a cursory review of the information there clearly hows that Gore was not instrumental in either thinking up the technology or producing it. Nevertheless he did have the vision and he was way ahead of the crowd on this particular issue, and he did make a signiicant contribution, and he deserves credit for that. He just doesn't deserve as much credit as he gave himself. The history posted shows that he was supportive and indeed helped keep Congress apprised of the possibilities, but he in no way took the initiative in creating the internet.

What he actually said:
."During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet" Gore said when asked to cite accomplishments that separate him from another Democratic presidential hopeful, former Sen. Bill Bradley of New Jersey, during an interview with Wolf Blitzer on CNN on March 9, 1999.

He wouldn't have taken so much grief over that statement if he hadn't made so many similar gaffes as that one and that's all that Leno, Letterman, and the Republicans giving their one minutes needed. Smile
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kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 11:00 pm
Baldimo wrote:
There were severel times during the debates where it was mentioned and Bush had to state numerous times that there wasn't going to be a draft.

Bush's second term is three months old. That leaves 45 months.

Meanwhile, there are still some 150,000 troops in Iraq. National Guardsmen are still having their tours extended involuntarily long, long beyond the year they were led to believe when they signed up, and Bush is making noises toware Iran that sound suspiciously similar to the ones he made toward Iraq in the beginning.

45 months of a 48 month term to go. How on earth you can say that there is any proof that Bush will not reinstate the draft is beyond me. Remember,this is the same guy who told the world there was no doubt the WMD's were in Iraq.
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kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 11:04 pm
JustWonders wrote:
No wonder Kerry lost. Not even the Democrats were listening when he spoke LOL!


I haven't the vaguest idea what you are talking about.

Meanwhile, Just Wonders, we are all eagerly awaiting your link which tells us when Kerry said that Bush was going to reinstate the draft immediately after the election.

Care to show us that quote?
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 11:14 pm
kelticwizard wrote:
Baldimo wrote:
There were severel times during the debates where it was mentioned and Bush had to state numerous times that there wasn't going to be a draft.

Bush's second term is three months old. That leaves 45 months.

Meanwhile, there are still some 150,000 troops in Iraq. National Guardsmen are still having their tours extended involuntarily long, long beyond the year they were led to believe when they signed up, and Bush is making noises toware Iran that sound suspiciously similar to the ones he made toward Iraq in the beginning.

45 months of a 48 month term to go. How on earth you can say that there is any proof that Bush will not reinstate the draft is beyond me. Remember,this is the same guy who told the world there was no doubt the WMD's were in Iraq.


I don't see the need for a draft, we have the people we need. Being in the military I can tell you that even the military doesn't want a draft.

Why don't you talk to Charley Rangel and ask him about the draft?
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kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 11:40 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Obviously, even a cursory review of the information there clearly hows that Gore was not instrumental in either thinking up the technology or producing it. ....he did make a signiicant contribution, and he deserves credit for that. He just doesn't deserve as much credit as he gave himself.


I think a lot boils down to what a reasonable interpretation of "took the initiative in creating the internet" actually would be.

It clearly cannot mean, "I showed initiative. I created the internet", for that would be absurd.

It also doesn't mean, "I created the technology that made the internet possible", for that would make little sense. Everyone knows that Gore has a career in public service. Nobody can be expected to believe that you would walk into his office and see wires, integrated circuits, transistors and soldering irons all over the place.

However, there is a far more reasonable interpretation. When somebody gets on board an existing organization or movement when it is still quite small, and helps dramatically to turn it into something much, much bigger than it was, there is a tendency to say that so-and-so "created" or "made" the thing.

For instance, rock and roll was already an established music style before Elvis came along. Yet Elvis is so associated with turning it into the dominant muscal style that it became, that it would not be inaccurate to say that he "created" rock and roll. Without him, rock and roll might have been just a few records that were hits for a year or so, before music moved on to something else, like "trad jazz", or folk.

Another example. The American Football League was already in existence for several years before Joe Namath was signed out of college to play there. Yet Namath's big contract from the Jets and his spectacular play his first couple of years induced ABC to offer the entire league a lucrative TV contract, thus ensuring it's survival. This essentially forced the established National Football League, which until that time was waiting for the fledgling AFL to fail, to offer the AFL a plan to merge the two leagues. Without the ABC TV contract, the AFL doesn't get offered the merger deal. Without Namath, ABC doesn't give the AFL the TV contract. Hence, you often hear that Namath "made" the American Football League. Nobody seriously argues otherwise.

I think this is how you have to look at Gore's statement. Beofre he came on the scene, the internet was just a fledgling network which the Pentagon decided to remove from the public eye. Gore got the libraries and colleges to start a similar network, and helped to get the new network accessible to everyone whether they were in a library or not.

This really helped to transform the internet into what it is today. If Gore did not come along, there is a chance that the internet might be something only researchers know about.

Here is another article on the subject, that makes things perhaps a little clearer.
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kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 11:50 pm
Baldimo wrote:

I don't see the need for a draft, we have the people we need.


If that is the case, why is such a high percentage of the people in Iraq National Guardsmen? The original intent of the Guard was to provide a force to stay home in case the regular forces are going overseas.

And why are these guardsmen forced to stay such a long time past the year that is supposed be a normal tour?

And now Bush is making noises about Iran like he made about Iraq before we went in there. Where are the people going to come from?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 11:58 pm
National Guardsmen take the same oath as regular Army, Airforce, etc. and they know going in that they are subject to being called up to active duty at any time during their usual eight years of service. They take that risk for eight years in return for being able to stay stateside and further their education and/or career in peacetime. They are trained in important skills useful to the military. It would make no sense to draft additional personnel until the pool of trained and ready personnel is fully depleted. We aren't anywhere close to that being the case yet.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 12:01 am
Keltic, I gave Gore the credit he was due for his support of the Internet. Unfotunately he was given to stretching the truth often to make himself look more important or more experienced or more 'in tune' than he actually was on various issues and therefore he took a lot more heat over his ill advised comment re the internet than he may have otherwise observed.

It's all part and parcel of politics. Nobody gets away with a public gaffe these days. And Gore is by no means any more picked on than anybody else has been.
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kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 12:04 am
Foxfyre wrote:
National Guardsmen take the same oath as regular Army, Airforce, etc. and they know going in that they are subject to being called up to active duty at any time during their usual eight years of service.


Quite true. But the whole idea of the National Guard is for these people to remain primarily stateside, protecting the homeland, especially in times when the regular forces are overseas.

I don't believe we have ever fought an overseas war with such a large percentage of the fighting force being National Guardsmen, have we? Not even during WWII.

And if we have plenty of people, why the "backdoor draft" where the National Guardsmen are required to stay many, many months past the normal tour of duty?
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kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 12:13 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Keltic, I gave Gore the credit he was due for his support of the Internet.


You did give him credit. But I don't think you gave him enough.

As I stated in the post before, people are frequently credited with "making" or "creating"something which was established when they got there, but which they helped to make much, much bigger than it was before. I believe this is Gore's role in the internet phenomenon.

Foxfyre wrote:
It's all part and parcel of politics. Nobody gets away with a public gaffe these days. And Gore is by no means any more picked on than anybody else has been.

I feel the facts of the situation strongly favor Gore. I think he should have apologized for using a term open to misinterpretation, and while he was apologizing he should point out his own pivotal role in the proces of creating the information superhighway.
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 02:06 am
Baldimo wrote:
I don't see the need for a draft, we have the people we need. Being in the military I can tell you that even the military doesn't want a draft.

Why don't you talk to Charley Rangel and ask him about the draft?


Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 03:42 am
Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld
Mr. Rumsfeld attended Princeton University on academic and NROTC scholarships (A.B., 1954) and served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor. In 1957, he transferred to the Ready Reserve and continued his Naval service in flying and administrative assignments as a drilling reservist until 1975. He transferred to the Standby Reserve when he became Secretary of Defense in 1975 and to the Retired Reserve with the rank of Captain in 1989.

Secretary of Veterans Affairs Jim Nicholson
He is a 1961 graduate of the United States Military Academy at West Point, N.Y. He served eight years on active duty as a paratrooper and Ranger-qualified Army officer, then 22 years in the Army Reserve, retiring with the rank of colonel. While serving in Vietnam, he earned the Bronze Star Medal, Combat Infantryman Badge, the Meritorious Service Medal, Republic of Vietnam Cross of Gallantry and two Air Medals.

Secretary of Transportation Norman Y. Mineta
After graduating from the University of California at Berkeley, Mineta joined the Army in 1953 and served as an intelligence officer in Japan and Korea.

Attorney General Alberto Gonzales
Gonzales served in the United States Air Force between 1973 and 1975, and attended the United States Air Force Academy between 1975 and 1977
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 04:21 am
kelticwizard wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Keltic, I gave Gore the credit he was due for his support of the Internet.


You did give him credit. But I don't think yu gave him enough.

As I stated in the post before, people are frequently credited with "making" or "creating"something which was established when they got there, but which they helped to make much, much bigger than it was before. I believe this is Gore's role in the internet phenomenon.

Foxfyre wrote:
It's all part and parcel of politics. Nobody gets away with a public gaffe these days. And Gore is by no means any more picked on than anybody else has been.

I feel the facts of the situation strongly favor Gore. I think he should have apologized for using a term open to misinterpretation, and while he was apologizing he should point out his own pivotal role in the proces of creating the information superhighway.


It wouldn't have done any good. The Republicans, Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh and other elves engaged in a hee-haw campaign. What they did was irresponsibly portray Gore as a liar, and a bad one, even though he was telling the truth. More conservative bizarroworld tactics, the truth is a lie, lies are okay as long as we win. Republican believers like Foxfyre shrug, but such lies are the fabric of the current conservative modus operandi, they can't function, or campaign, on truth.

More than that, the creation of the internet is a complex idea, one that involves words like "initiative" and are beyond the depth of understanding of the values voters of the right. If you wanted to see a very blank look during the Bush-Gore campaigns, you'd ask a Bush voter if they knew what Gore did have to do with the creation of the internet. They had only been taught how to hee-haw (how ironic, given the symbol for the Democratic Party) and not what any of those inconvenient facts were.

And they shrugged too.

Joe(Keep it simple in a complex world)Nation
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 04:37 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Keltic, I gave Gore the credit he was due for his support of the Internet. Unfotunately he was given to stretching the truth often to make himself look more important or more experienced or more 'in tune' than he actually was on various issues and therefore he took a lot more heat over his ill advised comment re the internet than he may have otherwise observed.

It's all part and parcel of politics. Nobody gets away with a public gaffe these days. And Gore is by no means any more picked on than anybody else has been.


Would that be anything like claiming to have served in the military on a fix up job with the guard, or landing on an aircraft carrier in shallow water with a cucumber in your pants or carving a plastic turkey for a photo op at Christmas? Laughing Laughing

And don't forget "bring em on" Yeah baby, who's bad?
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 04:50 am
Quote:
Unfotunately he was given to stretching the truth often to make himself look more important or more experienced or more 'in tune' than he actually was on various issues and therefore he took a lot more heat over his ill advised comment re the internet than he may have otherwise observed.


And this kind of recitation is another example of the kind of reinforcement of the falsity, you just keep saying 'he stretchs the truth' enough until the listeners buy the idea. Oh, and don't forget to say unfortunately.

Joe( Rolling Eyes )Nation
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 04:56 am
Unfotunately Joe, you are correct.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 06:35 am
0 Replies
 
 

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