1
   

A "Fuming" John Kerry

 
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 07:22 am
mysteryman wrote:
KW,
Are you saying that Muslims,who by their religion are REQUIRED to pray several times a day,should ingore their own beliefs,just so they can hold a job?


In schools, in order to meet the education requirements, the Supreme Court has ruled that small groups of Muslims can go to a private classroom and pray at the madatory time, if the alternative is to not attend school at all. The schools were behind it because Federal funds were matched to school attendance, and if the Muslim students were not showing up, the school district got less funds. Also, there was the issue of madatory school attendance versus free exercise of religion-in this case, where the pupil MUST pray at a certain time of day.

Years earlier, in decision unrelated to Muslims, the Supreme Court ruled that after hours meetings of Lutheran clubs, Baptist clubs, etc can be held where prayers can be said, although I think the prayers must be by the students themselves-no importing preachers to lead them.

The Muslim decision about prayers at noon is pretty much the equivalent of the school district saying, "Okay, we allow the Baptists and Lutherans to have their club meetings after school, where prayers are said. Because your religion mandates that you MUST pray in the middle of the day, we will allow you to go to a classroom and have your Muslim club meeting in the middle of the school day, as opposed to after school hours. We only do this because your religion mandates that you MUST pray at that moment, which is in the middle f the school day."

The Supreme Court also ruled that these exceptions cannot be a large percentage of the students, it can only be a small percentage to avoid having the school essentially hijacked into acting like a mosque.
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 07:26 am
As far as Federal, state or municipal workers, I don't if equivalent prayer meetings are scheduled in the middle of the day.

I do know this-the courts have ruled that if your religion forbids you to work on a Sabbath, and the nature of the job requires you to work that day, the employer can lay you off but you do get unemployment compensation for six months.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 04:17 pm
Debra,
Today is National day of Prayer.
Its a tradition that goes all the way back to George Washington.
Should it be outlawed?
Should the President be allowed to attend services today?
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 05:51 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Debra,
Today is National day of Prayer.
Its a tradition that goes all the way back to George Washington.
Should it be outlawed?
Should the President be allowed to attend services today?


I don't know anything about the "national day of prayer." Is that like the Martin Luther King Day?

Should it be outlawed? Look it up. I'm sure if you study the question, you will find the answer.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 06:04 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
And Debra, your arguments are well stated as always, but I am resisting what I think is your definition of 'establishment of religion'. I have long thought that allowing religious symbols or expressions was in no way an 'establishment of religion' but only a policy that would reward any particular belief or favor a religious belief over another belief would violate the 'no establishment of religion' clause. I have never bought into the theory that 'no establishment of relgion' means 'no exposure to religion'.

To say that people have churches and homes they can go to and they should confine their religious expressions there isn't much different than saying people have stadiums and homes they can go to and they should confine their comments about their sports teams there.


It's NOT my definition of the "establishment of religion." It is the definition that has developed through two hundred years of First Amendment jurisprudence.

The law does not allow things to be done indirectly what may not be done directly. There are thousands of ways for government to establish religion in violation of the First Amendment without actually passing a law establishing religion. We would all be fools if we didn't recognize that indirect violations of the First Amendment are just as unconstitutional as direct violations.

As a private citizen, you can go in the public courthouse or the public stadium and discuss religion and sports with anyone who wants to listen to you so long as you're not disrupting public business or harassing unwilling listeners. BUT, if you're a lawmaker or a public official, you may NOT impose religious doctrine on others through laws or public postings. Pretty simple concept.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 07:43 pm
Debra,
"BUT, if you're a lawmaker or a public official, you may NOT impose religious doctrine on others through laws or public postings. Pretty simple concept."

And using the "free exercise" clause you may NOT prevent someone from exercising their rights either.

Yet,the govt has done just that.
There have been many court cases where schools have been told that they may not mention God,because it "offends" someone.There have been cases where the courts have determined that a high school football team can not have a team prayer before the game,even if its the players idea.

But,if the lawmakers cannot do that,and if any mention of God by a govt official is illegal,then I have to ask this...
Why are both the House AND Senate allowed to have OFFICIAL chaplains? Why do they open EVERY session of Congress with a prayer?
Why are the 10 commandments poisted in the USSC chambers?
Why does the military actively recruit chaplains for the military?
Are not all of these violations of the law,the way you are defining it?
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 08:43 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Debra,
"BUT, if you're a lawmaker or a public official, you may NOT impose religious doctrine on others through laws or public postings. Pretty simple concept."

And using the "free exercise" clause you may NOT prevent someone from exercising their rights either.

Yet,the govt has done just that.


How so? Explain.


Quote:
There have been many court cases where schools have been told that they may not mention God,because it "offends" someone. There have been cases where the courts have determined that a high school football team can not have a team prayer before the game,even if its the players idea.


Give me the citations or links to these "many court cases" and we can discuss them. What were the facts and circumstances surrounding these cases?


Quote:
But,if the lawmakers cannot do that,and if any mention of God by a govt official is illegal,then I have to ask this...
Why are both the House AND Senate allowed to have OFFICIAL chaplains? Why do they open EVERY session of Congress with a prayer?
Why are the 10 commandments poisted in the USSC chambers?
Why does the military actively recruit chaplains for the military?
Are not all of these violations of the law,the way you are defining it?


Show me the cases. I don't define the parameters of the First Amendment. The Supreme Court does. Find the cases; read the cases; post the links; and we can discuss the specifics of each.

I don't go to my local courthouse to get religion or to read the Ten Commandments hanging on the public wall; I go there to transact my business. If you're a public official, what gives you the right to preach your religion to me or to post religious materials on public property? The right to "free exercise of religion" does not emcompass the right to impose your religious views on others. Government is not in the business of religion. It's in the business of secular public service.
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 08:47 pm
mysteryman wrote:

And using the "free exercise" clause you may NOT prevent someone from exercising their rights either.


You have the right to exercise those rights off tax-supported property. You may not use tax supported property to further your religious views. How would you feel if you were a non-Mormon living in a Mormon community and you found out that the local school board just decided to put the quotations of Josepth Smith and Brigham Young in every classroom. Written in the plaster in gold leaf..

The classrooms your tax dollars are paying for.

Think you might take exception to that?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 12:53 am
YIKES!! And here I thought American civics classes were required in school. Y'all need a serious remedial "No adult left behind" program.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 01:47 am
ENGEL v. VITALE, 370 U.S. 421 (1962)

MR. JUSTICE BLACK delivered the opinion of the Court.

Excerpts:

We think that by using its public school system to encourage recitation of the Regents' prayer, the State of New York has adopted a practice wholly inconsistent with the Establishment Clause. There can, of course, be no doubt that New York's program of daily classroom invocation of God's blessings as prescribed in the Regents' prayer is a religious activity. It is a solemn avowal of divine faith and supplication for the blessings of the Almighty. . . .

By the time of the adoption of the Constitution, our history shows that there was a widespread awareness among many Americans of the dangers of a union of Church and State. These people knew, some of them from bitter personal experience, that one of the greatest dangers to the freedom of the individual to worship in his own way lay in the Government's placing its official stamp of approval upon one particular kind of prayer or one particular form of religious services. They knew the anguish, hardship and bitter strife that could come when zealous religious groups struggled with one another to obtain the Government's stamp of approval from each King, Queen, or Protector that came to temporary power.

The Constitution was intended to avert a part of this danger by leaving the government of this country in the hands of the people rather than in the hands of any monarch. But this safeguard was not enough. Our Founders were no more willing to let the content of their prayers and their privilege of praying whenever they pleased be influenced by the ballot box than they were to let these vital matters of personal conscience depend upon the succession of monarchs. The First Amendment was added to the Constitution to stand as a guarantee that neither the power nor the prestige of the Federal Government would be used to control, support or influence the kinds of prayer the American people can say - that the people's religious must not be subjected to the pressures of government for change each time a new political administration is elected to office.

There can be no doubt that New York's state prayer program officially establishes the religious beliefs embodied in the Regents' prayer. The respondents' argument to the contrary, which is largely based upon the contention that the Regents' prayer is "non-denominational" and the fact that the program, as modified and approved by state courts, does not require all pupils to recite the prayer but permits those who wish to do so to remain silent or be excused from the room, ignores the essential nature of the program's constitutional defects. Neither the fact that the prayer may be denominationally neutral nor the fact that its observance on the part of the students is voluntary can serve to free it from the limitations of the Establishment Clause, as it might from the Free Exercise Clause, of the First Amendment, both of which are operative against the States by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment.

Although these two clauses may in certain instances overlap, they forbid two quite different kinds of governmental encroachment upon religious freedom. The Establishment Clause, unlike the Free Exercise Clause, does not depend upon any showing of direct governmental compulsion and is violated by the enactment of laws which establish an official religion whether those laws operate directly to coerce nonobserving individuals or not. This is not to say, of course, that laws officially prescribing a particular form of religious worship do not involve coercion of such individuals. When the power, prestige and financial support of government is placed behind a particular religious belief, the indirect coercive pressure upon religious minorities to conform to the prevailing officially approved religion is plain.

But the purposes underlying the Establishment Clause go much further than that. Its first and most immediate purpose rested on the belief that a union of government and religion tends to destroy government and to degrade religion. The history of governmentally established religion, both in England and in this country, showed that whenever government had allied itself with one particular form of religion, the inevitable result had been that it had incurred the hatred, disrespect and even contempt of those who held contrary beliefs. That same history showed that many people had lost their respect for any religion that had relied upon the support of government to spread its faith. The Establishment Clause thus stands as an expression of principle on the part of the Founders of our Constitution that religion is too personal, too sacred, too holy, to permit its "unhallowed perversion" by a civil magistrate.

Another purpose of the Establishment Clause rested upon an awareness of the historical fact that governmentally established religions and religious persecutions go hand in hand. The Founders knew that only a few years after the Book of Common Prayer became the only accepted form of religious services in the established Church of England, an Act of Uniformity was passed to compel all Englishmen to attend those services and to make it a criminal offense to conduct or attend religious gatherings of any other kind 17 - a law which was consistently flouted by dissenting religious groups in England and which contributed to widespread persecutions of people like John Bunyan who persisted in holding "unlawful [religious] meetings . . . to the great disturbance and distraction of the good subjects of this kingdom . . . ." And they knew that similar persecutions had received the sanction of law in several of the colonies in this country soon after the establishment of official religions in those colonies. It was in large part to get completely away from this sort of systematic religious persecution that the Founders brought into being our Nation, our Constitution, and our Bill of Rights with its prohibition against any governmental establishment of religion. The New York laws officially prescribing the Regents' prayer are inconsistent both with the purposes of the Establishment Clause and with the Establishment Clause itself.

It has been argued that to apply the Constitution in such a way as to prohibit state laws respecting an establishment of religious services in public schools is to indicate a hostility toward religion or toward prayer. Nothing, of course, could be more wrong. The history of man is inseparable from the history of religion. And perhaps it is not too much to say that since the beginning of that history many people have devoutly believed that "More things are wrought by prayer than this world dreams of."

It was doubtless largely due to men who believed this that there grew up a sentiment that caused men to leave the cross-currents of officially established state religions and religious persecution in Europe and come to this country filled with the hope that they could find a place in which they could pray when they pleased to the God of their faith in the language they chose. And there were men of this same faith in the power of prayer who led the fight for adoption of our Constitution and also for our Bill of Rights with the very guarantees of religious freedom that forbid the sort of governmental activity which New York has attempted here.

These men knew that the First Amendment, which tried to put an end to governmental control of religion and of prayer, was not written to destroy either. They knew rather that it was written to quiet well-justified fears which nearly all of them felt arising out of an awareness that governments of the past had shackled men's tongues to make them speak only the religious thoughts that government wanted them to speak and to pray only to the God that government wanted them to pray to. It is neither sacrilegious nor antireligious to say that each separate government in this country should stay out of the business of writing or sanctioning official prayers and leave that purely religious function to the people themselves and to those the people choose to look to for religious guidance.

It is true that New York's establishment of its Regents' prayer as an officially approved religious doctrine of that State does not amount to a total establishment of one particular religious sect to the exclusion of all others - that, indeed, the governmental endorsement of that prayer seems relatively insignificant when compared to the governmental encroachments upon religion which were commonplace 200 years ago. To those who may subscribe to the view that because the Regents' official prayer is so brief and general there can be no danger to religious freedom in its governmental establishment, however, it may be appropriate to say in the words of James Madison, the author of the First Amendment:

"t is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. . . . Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? That the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?"
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 03:39 am
Excellent post, debra, I hope everyone reads every word.

Mysteryman:Quote:
Quote:
But,if the lawmakers cannot do that,and if any mention of God by a govt official is illegal,then I have to ask this...
Why are both the House AND Senate allowed to have OFFICIAL chaplains? Why do they open EVERY session of Congress with a prayer?
Why are the 10 commandments poisted in the USSC chambers?
Why does the military actively recruit chaplains for the military?
Are not all of these violations of the law,the way you are defining it?


These are good questions and ought to be raised in a lawsuit. There was an attempt a few years ago in regard to the session prayer but the Courts danced around avoiding having to make a decision. There is no doubt that the session prayers are unconstitutional and so is paying the chaplins taxpayer money, both the Congressional ones and the military ones, but here's the thing, sometimes we allow things to occur in our society simply to keep the peace.

In a war zone, a believing person might fight better if he knew another person, able to give him the Last Rites, was nearby. It might have been a good idea to have a few scattered around Abu Ghariud Prison the nights when Lyndie England and Sgt. Grainer were yanking on the leashs of naked prisoners.

Maybe the Congressional Budget Office should be asked to a cost/benefit study? I mean, think of the time/cost use of the amount of prayer that has been exerted during the Iraq War, and ask are we getting our money's worth out of it or do we need to utilize a different set of shamans for better effect?

And it's obvious, considering the recent performance of Congress that the chaplins aren't drawing God's Wisdom fully into the chambers. I mean, look at the Prescription Medicines Act, was the the Hand of Providence even engaged in it's writing, I mean more than say, Eli-Lilly's?

And to get back to those military chaplins, they need to get us some more smiting, don't you think? Our enemies seem to have not been smited with as much force as I would personally like to see them smitted with. Is that a job for the chaplins to consider or should the mega-churchs of the Plains States be required to gin up the Wrath of God?

That raises another question: Can the government better utilize the powers of the values voters? Should there be some effort towards praying for lover oil prices and a surge in job growth?

Joe(These people have powers and are not being brought to bear)Nation

PS: And if you want to see the effects of official religion in a US facility, google the words "heathen flight" and "US Air Force Academy". Yes, the US Air Force Academy has switched from being the center of military sexual harassment and rape to a facility where religious coercision is a daily, and public, event.

Your tax dollars at work.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 03:48 am
kelticwizard wrote:
mysteryman wrote:

And using the "free exercise" clause you may NOT prevent someone from exercising their rights either.


You have the right to exercise those rights off tax-supported property. You may not use tax supported property to further your religious views. How would you feel if you were a non-Mormon living in a Mormon community and you found out that the local school board just decided to put the quotations of Josepth Smith and Brigham Young in every classroom. Written in the plaster in gold leaf..

The classrooms your tax dollars are paying for.

Think you might take exception to that?


No,I wouldnt take exception to it.
Why should I?

Debra,
I guess the House of Reps has decided to officially endorse and promote Catholicism,right?
http://chaplain.house.gov/

And here we have the OFFICIAL Senate chaplain...
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030617-114825-9640r.htm

And here we have the Govt actively recruiting chaplains///http://banner.goarmy.com/banrtrck/banrdocs/armyop46.jsp;jsessionid=CF563D94ED422396B324FB4987568EBF?banner=AAAA-CHPL-9999-0704-46

Arent all of these violations,according to you?
In all 3 instances,its the Govt getting involved in and promoting religion.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 05:22 am
You seriously would not take exception to the use of your taxes to inscribe religious phrases on the walls of your child's school?

What would you take exception to?

Could the school board require that every child wear a crucifix?
Or that a depiction of Christ in the Garden be posted in the lobby?
How about meatless Fridays in the cafeteria?

Could they insist that the girls wear chadors?

Could one of the classrooms be turned into a chapel?
Could they insist that any student passing the chapel be silent?

Joe(I think it would be a waste of good gold leaf)Nation
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 06:31 am
mysteryman wrote:
mysteryman wrote:

No,I wouldnt take exception to it.
Why should I?


Because, if you are, say, a Methodist living in a predominantly Mormon community, you are trying to raise your children to believe in the old and the new testament only. Unlike the Mormons, who have added a third testament which they claim was found by Joseph Smith in upstate New York in the late 1800's.

You might like your Mormon friends very much, but you are not going to raise your children believing that whatever book Josepth Smith found is the equivalent of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. And having your 10 and 11 year old seeing words extolling the concept that it is in the school you send them to to learn, the same school you endorse by telling them to get good marks in, will tend to influence them into that religious belief. Which is completely contrary to the religious belief you are working hard to raise them in.

There is no way for them to escape learning that their friends believe this-that's part of living in a Mormon community. But the schools should NOT be giving official sanction to one religious belief over another. And if you found yourself trying to raise your kids in a community where your religious belief was the minority, I think you would understand that better.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 01:06 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Debra,

I guess the House of Reps has decided to officially endorse and promote Catholicism . . . .

Arent all of these violations,according to you? In all 3 instances,its the Govt getting involved in and promoting religion.


I didn't invent First Amendment jurisprudence. Why don't you read the Supreme Court cases (starting with the one that I posted yesterday) and then apply the law to the facts in the three instances you mention. You should be able to determine for yourself whether the First Amendment has been violated.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 02:10 pm
Debra writes
Quote:
I didn't invent First Amendment jurisprudence. Why don't you read the Supreme Court cases (starting with the one that I posted yesterday) and then apply the law to the facts in the three instances you mention. You should be able to determine for yourself whether the First Amendment has been violated.


But....but.....if the whole premise of the CRA is that court cases have been decided wrongly, wouldn't looking to Supreme Court rulings in this case be sort of like looking to the fox for a ruling on chicken thievery?
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 02:51 pm
I thought this was the premise:

Quote:
The entire premise of the CRA is this:
If Congress cannot make a law restricting states from the acknowledgment of God under the First Amendment, how can the Supreme Court enforce a law which Congress cannot make?


If one reads it slowly, it is even more nonsensical. It kind of sound like those old conundrums "Can God make a rock He cannot lift." I especially like the triple double negative...

The First and Fourteenth Amendments already restrict the States from passing a law respecting the establishment of religion or restricting the free exercise thereof, therefore...

Joe(If the Universe is bigger than God, or God is bigger than ,,)Nation
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 02:56 pm
If you thought Kerry was fuming before, apparently John McCain has told him to sit down and shut up .... LOL! (Note to Sen. McCain - Kerry has been running for president since high school. What makes you think he's going to listen to you or anyone else...including the people from his own state?)
_____________________________________________________________

McCain wants Kerry to stop looking ahead
By Noelle Straub
Friday, May 6, 2005 - Updated: 01:22 PM EST

WASHINGTON - Straight-talking Sen. John McCain wants his friend Sen. John Kerry to ice his ``obvious'' desire to run for president again and focus on his day job.

     ``It's pretty obvious, the way he's acting, he'd like to try it again,'' the Arizona Republican said of a 2008 Kerry bid.

     ``I'd advise him to be the best senator he could be and put those ambitions aside for a while.'' McCain said he ``absolutely'' wants to be president himself but will focus on the Senate and ``wait a couple years'' to decide on a 2008 run.

     Assessing Kerry's odds in the June issue of Men's Journal, McCain said, ``I think it would be difficult for John, for the same reason it's hard for all candidates who don't succeed.''

     He said he spurned Kerry's overtures last year to become his running mate. While the position ``was never officially offered,'' McCain said they discussed it during ``three chats'' despite his being ``not interested from the beginning.'' Asked why Kerry continued to pursue him, McCain said, ``You'll have to ask him that.'' McCain, who campaigned for President Bush last year, praised GOP efforts but added, ``I also don't think Kerry ran a very good race . . . At the Democratic convention, I can't tell you anything they did besides say, `Reporting for duty.' ''

     Kerry spokeswoman Jenny Backus responded, ``It's always fun to watch Sen. McCain quarterback, especially when he was the captain of the Bush/Cheney team.'' McCain also predicted Sen. Hillary Clinton has ``a good shot'' at the Democratic nomination and that ``it would be a mistake to underestimate her.''


http://news.bostonherald.com/politics/view.bg?articleid=81928
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 03:08 pm
I think McCain is right. The Democratic Party requires a fresh face for the next presidential run. Kerry will be viewed as the candidate who lost. The Party needs a candidate that the public can perceive as a probable WINNER rather than as a loser.
0 Replies
 
gustavratzenhofer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 03:11 pm
The trick is finding such a candidate. The cupboard appears to be bare.
0 Replies
 
 

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