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If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

 
 
neologist
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2005 10:46 am
He is, after all, a newcomer. I don't understand half of what he said and I don't believe the rest, but he is still a newcomer. Maybe we should just ask him to clarify(!)
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2005 10:59 am
thunder_runner32 wrote:
au1929 wrote:
Or maybe it is someone who has been truly enlightened and has found comfort in the fact that God does not hate us.


If God does not hate us then there is no need of a Hell. Love accepts all, bar none.

Humans don't and they hate.
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au1929
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2005 11:05 am
xingu wrote
Quote:
au1929 wrote:
Or maybe it is someone who has been truly enlightened and has found comfort in the fact that God does not hate us.



No way did I write that.
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revel
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2005 11:19 am
xingu wrote:
thunder_runner32 wrote:
au1929 wrote:
Or maybe it is someone who has been truly enlightened and has found comfort in the fact that God does not hate us.


If God does not hate us then there is no need of a Hell. Love accepts all, bar none.

Humans don't and they hate.


God loves everyone which is why he gave his Son for our sins. It is up to us to do our part in accepting that love by accepting his gift to us which is Jesus Christ. If we fail to do that and we die and go to hell it is because we did not love God enough to accept his Son who died for us.

(which is my private belief) (now I am remembering why I have been avoiding religion threads in general. Smile )
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2005 11:33 am
Why does "requiring people to torture and kill his son"...prove that your god loves everyone?????
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xingu
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2005 11:37 am
au1929
Sorry, got screwed up trying to work the quotes.
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xingu
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2005 11:59 am
revel
Curious; how can you rationalize sending someone to Hell as an act of love. If God is as much love as you would believe he wouldn't care if we believed in him or not. He would accept us all regardless of our beliefs or behavior. It's called unconditional love.

Do you have children? If so would you send them off to a place where they will be tortured and killed because they would not accept your religious beliefs? If you think that would be cruel and inhumane behavior then why do you insist God must behave in such a manner?

Can't you accept a God that can behave humanely towards people; a God that would not demand that he be accepted by humans or the worse form of death would await them? Don't you think that love means allowing humans to have the freedom to choose; to leave the door open so they may step out if they wanted?
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revel
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2005 01:36 pm
From the beginning God was a jealous God and demanded obedience and his punishments have always been severe. I really don't know where people get the idea that God accepts everything.

I take the Bible as the literal truth so I accept the flood account as it is written. Countless of people drowned except for eight people.

If I accept that why would I have a hard time accepting that countless people are going to go to hell, maybe even myself if I don't fly right as the saying goes?

(I don't subscribe to the once saved always saved theory)
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revel
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2005 01:46 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
Why does "requiring people to torture and kill his son"...prove that your god loves everyone?????


I don't think it proves anything in a secular world maybe I should have worded my response differently.

The biblical reasoning is that only a perfect person could take on the sins of the whole world as a living sacrifice. As you are probably well aware before the sacrifice of Jesus Christ; God required the sacrifice of pure animals. Which is why Jesus is called the Lamb of God. It all makes sense if a person reads it.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2005 02:07 pm
revel wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Why does "requiring people to torture and kill his son"...prove that your god loves everyone?????[


I don't think it proves anything in a secular world maybe I should have worded my response differently.


Okay...let's see where that leads.


Quote:
The biblical reasoning is that only a perfect person could take on the sins of the whole world as a living sacrifice. As you are probably well aware before the sacrifice of Jesus Christ; God required the sacrifice of pure animals. Which is why Jesus is called the Lamb of God.


Thank you for rewording your comments.

Allow me to reword my response to fit:

Why is "requiring people to slaughter animals (pure or otherwise)" evidence that your god loves everyone?


Quote:
It all makes sense if a person reads it.


It makes no more sense, logically or morally, than the Hanzel and Gretel fairytale, Revel.
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revel
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2005 02:21 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
revel wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Why does "requiring people to torture and kill his son"...prove that your god loves everyone?????[


I don't think it proves anything in a secular world maybe I should have worded my response differently.


Okay...let's see where that leads.


Quote:
The biblical reasoning is that only a perfect person could take on the sins of the whole world as a living sacrifice. As you are probably well aware before the sacrifice of Jesus Christ; God required the sacrifice of pure animals. Which is why Jesus is called the Lamb of God.


Thank you for rewording your comments.

Allow me to reword my response to fit:

Why is "requiring people to slaughter animals (pure or otherwise)" evidence that your god loves everyone?


Quote:
It all makes sense if a person reads it.


It makes no more sense, logically or morally, than the Hanzel and Gretel fairytale, Revel.


I suppose there is no getting around it. It really don't prove God loves us unless a person is already convinced of it beforehand and just knows God's ways are not our ways. (I never did my side much good in these discussions)

But tell me this why have laws if there are no consequences? Why say, "unless you believe and are baptized you will burn in everlasting hell fire" unless you mean it?
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2005 02:29 pm
I don't know the answer to your question, Revel...just as I do not know why anyone wants to suppose the god described in the Bible is loving and forgiving.

Neither makes much sense to me.
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au1929
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2005 02:32 pm
xingu

Revel is expressing her own personal, religious view. Which' so as not to be accused as being rude I will only express my disbelief?I will say however, that belief which is at the heart of her religion expresses it's intolerance. Believe my way or burn in hell. Suppose I were to say believe your way and you will burn in hell. Sorry to get wound up but that expression of intolerance puts a burr under my saddle.
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neologist
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2005 03:01 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
Why does "requiring people to torture and kill his son"...prove that your god loves everyone????


Biblically speaking, it was necessary only for Jesus to die as a perfect human to provide a corresponding ransom for Adam's sin. The painful circumstances of Jesus' death were a result of Satan's determination to prove that he could turn any of God's creations against Him. A similar situation occurred in the book of Job, if you remember.

The sacrifice of animals and the spilling of their blood was a part of the law pointing to Jesus sacrifice. There were many incidents in the OT which prefigured the life and death of Jesus. To name a few, there was:

The testing of Abraham - If you can imagine the difficulty Abraham must have experienced intending to sacrifice Isaac, then you can understand the price God paid by allowing his only begotten son to experience death.

The Passover - which required the sacrifice of an animal, the eating of unleavened bread and drinking of passover wine. Jesus has been referred to as the "last Passover"; the unleavened bread, his sinless body; the wine, his blood poured out in behalf of humankind.

The offering by the high priest of the sacrifice in the most holy part of the temple. Upon Jesus' death, we are told the curtain of the most high in the Temple at Jerusalem was torn asunder.

Biblically speaking, of course. Now you naysayers will have a few things to say to impress your bible thumping friends.
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revel
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2005 03:12 pm
actually I understand people being put off by my religious views and I don't think is rude to point out the intolerance of it.
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NewSoul
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2005 03:39 pm
That was the question that always bothered me the most.

God is just so he won't love whoever transgress his laws but he will give other chances to do better . If asked with sincerity, God mercifull as he is, will forgive the sins a human being commits involving God but because he is just will never forgive wrongdoing involving other people until forgiveness comes from them. Whoever say that God is all loving, NO , God is all loving who deserves it and all angry to injust people toward others. This is the real Justice. I learned that in Islam, because I always rejected the idea that God loves everybody because if he did , he would not punish. God is the most Just, the Most Wise. He gave us a freedom of will , an Earth full of blessings, minds as tools to use for us not against us but we still are bad to each other. Of course God will be happy with rigtheous people and will punish the others. God doesn't need a Son because he created a system, which is a whole package for us but this package is not a world for him because he is way beyond it because he is the creator. He doesn't need son nor daughter nor a wife ... The Bible was corrupted and is not acceptable anymore. The Quran of 1500 years back is exactly same as the one of now . God protected it to be a witness on us in the day of judgment and will tell us: Didn't you read my comandments ?Did you apply them on yourself ?

Anyway, I thought I would say something in here. Peace guys.
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xingu
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2005 03:53 pm
Frank is right, you know.

Why does something have to be killed, or sacrificed, to appease God.

This sounds like some South American Indian ritual deep in the Amazon jungle.

One would have thought in this day and age we would have outgrown this primitive belief system.

Well, the next time I watch National Geographic and see some naked tribes people sacrifice some animal for their crops or good health I will look at this with new eyes because I know my fellow Christians believe the same thing.

The only difference is the sacrifice.

Did anyone ever notice how many ancient pagans beliefs are in Christianity?
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xingu
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2005 04:01 pm
NewSoul wrote:
Whoever say that God is all loving, NO , God is all loving who deserves it and all angry to injust people toward others. This is the real Justice. I learned that in Islam, because I always rejected the idea that God loves everybody because if he did , he would not punish.


Tell me New Soul, what must one do to incur God's anger and wrath.

Reject the Muslim religion?

Be a Christian?

Use your free will to decide what your belief system will be and pick a non-Muslim religion?
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neologist
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2005 09:55 pm
Getting back to the original question of this thread, because I hate being http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/offtopic.gif
Wasn't it something about if Jesus died for our sins, why is there a hell?
I know I'm only guessing, but wasn't Ceasar fishing for an answer from or about the bible? Has anybody noticed he hasn't added anything to his original post? With 177 replies so far, how many of them have been on topic?

Actually, I think the issue has been well covered and now we're just sitting around clicking the keys at each other.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Mon 2 May, 2005 11:30 pm
NewSoul wrote:
I learned that in Islam, because I always rejected the idea that God loves everybody because if he did , he would not punish. God is the most Just, the Most Wise. He gave us a freedom of will , an Earth full of blessings, minds as tools to use for us not against us but we still are bad to each other. Of course God will be happy with rigtheous people and will punish the others.


NewSoul, do yourself a favor before you get yourself to involved with your new religion and visit this site Apostates of Islam clickety click. While there be sure to watch the videos of sharia law being carried out. These are graphic films of hands and being lopped off and stoning to death. The second worst crime under sharia law is leaving Islam and is punishable by death. This is not God doing the punishment, just crazed fanatics.
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