If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

This bashing of a religion based on extreme forms of it in my opinion is not good. I know quite a few Muslims who do not do those things yet are devout Muslims.

revel
It is not what the few you know do but what the religion calls for and is carried out in it's name.

Amen

I gotta do a second "amen" to au's post.

All religions have things in it that are not acceptable by today's society. It is what a person practices that matter. For instance in the old testament we are told to stone people who commit adultry. Or in the new testament we are told to have no part of those who reject Christ. I am just saying that what is written in the religious books is often different than what is practiced.

Deut. 22: 21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.


2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

I am just saying that we ought to be careful before attacking religions and beliefs.

But Revel...you are missing much of the point.

Your Bible...the book that supposedly set morality for you folks...claims that GOD...the maker of everything...dictated all that stuff to Moses.

Now...if you are saying that the Bible is simply a book of fiction...and should not be taken too seriously...

...I think you will get lots of agreement from us.

If you are saying something else about it...please be more clear...so we can see what you are thinking.

Revel
I would also add the both Christianity and Judaism do not practice the laws as prescribed in the OT. Islam on the other hand still does. Stoning, lashing and maiming still remains as an acceptable practice in the Islamic nations. And women are still the property of their husbands. There societies remain the medieval nightmare of the seventh century and remains so due to their religion.

I agree.

It's as if the Muslim religion has never left the Middle Ages; that period of time when the Catholic Church was burning people to death because of their religious beliefs.

Their religion seems to be very backward, out of touch with today's world.

Mind you, we are not talking about a few fanatics but whole regions or countries like Saudi Arabia or NW Pakistan.

Au, that was my point. Not every Muslim practices the words written in their religious books concerning stoning and so forth. Not even every Islamic state practices stoning and those things.

So were back to square one regarding choosing a religion.

Frank, I think au answered your post. We don't practice all the laws written in the Bible. However my point was that neither do all Muslims practice all their laws written in their religious books. There are moderate Muslims just like there are moderate Christians and Jews.

I think sometimes people mistake wearing a veil and having laws of morality with Taliban like States and it don't have to be like that.

Revel
The big difference is that not only does Christianity and Judaism not practice the punishments prescribed in the OT the religions do not ascribe to it. On the other hand Islam has not cast them aside and it contiues to be a part of their religious practices.

I think we are going around and round on this and repeating ourselves.

But on the whole I understand your points. I think what you all are talking about is more of a culture thing than a religion.

People have a right to believe and live as they see fit and if it is an Islamic state then that is their right.

People think that if given a choice women would choose not to be Islamic. We have been finding out that is not the case. People in those countries choose to live and believe the way they do and they have a right to.

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For such ideas to be openly discussed may be fairly recent, but the bible itself speaks of itself as a metaphor, Ps 78:2, the entire history of Israel, and Ps 49:4, and Gal 4, showing how Ishmael v. Isaac is a metaphor, and Prov 1:4,6 about how the "simple" must become "subtle", and Jesus also, "without a parable spake he not unto them", Matt 13:34.

But besides, it is just PATENTLY OBVIOUS that there is "metaphor" involved, I mean COME ON, that story in Judges where this Levite offers his concubine to the neighborhood rowdies who screw her to death and then he chops up her body and sends the pieces to the tribes of Israel demanding vengeance and the tribe of Benjamin won't play ball and can't have any wives from the other tribes and so they have to SNATCH DANCING GIRLS IN THE VINEYARDS FROM SHILOH for their wives, "shiloh" is a name for Christ, it means peace. Judges 19,20, 21.

*watches you guys swoosh go get a bible, lol*

But religion is for a group...and the group has varying levels of concious insight...and they aim for the lowest...as it should be I guess...anyone with more on the ball can figure out a better answer for themselves.

I'm not mad anymore...but I was...

And I was half in love with you watchdog, from the philosophy forum...

The internet is SO GONNA GET ME FIRED...

not my fault at all<--my philosophy...

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One more thought about "hell"...Ps 90:9, written to the sons of men, "all our days are passed away in The Wrath"...

Fiery trial it calls it elsewhere.

Appointed to man once to die and then the judgment.

For as in Adam all died, that's once isn't it? And here we are. Making whoopee

Concious insight is relative if there is no standard....are you above the ten commandments?

Re: reply


The whoopie comes from the resurrection of the dead for which Christ died and whether one passes into eternal life or damnation.

As I said revel sending someone to damnation is an act of hate; an evil act.

You believe in a God that hates; that's sad.

I will not believe in a God that is no better then a human.

God doesn't hate, he judges us, and ultimately we can all decide if we are going to hell or not. He has given us the choice. God has done nothing but love us from the beginning, that is why he constantly forgives us. At the end of our time is when he will judge us.

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Man's goings are of the Lord, how then shall a man understand his own way, Prov 20:24.

It is he that hath made us and not we ourselves...Ps 100:3

Then shall every man have praise of God, I Cor 4:5.

For as in Adam all died, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. I Cor 15:22.

I think it's a pretty bad blasphemy to vainly imagine a Creator creating (begetting?) Sons (Adam is the Son of God btw, Luke 3:38) with the intent to torture them for eternity...

The "torture"...aka "sore travail"...is for the "days of our flesh". All our days are passed away in the wrath, Ps 90:9. It is appointed to man once to die...in Adam all died...and then the judgment...the day of the Lord, we're living in it...where all our works are tried...to see what sort they are...lots is burned up...some just gets all shiny...we live and learn...perfected by experience....just as Jesus was "perfected by the things that he suffered." Hebrews 2:10, 5:8-9.

I'm telling you what the bible actually says, not what you hear in church. Go look and see.

Mercy rejoiceth against judgment...James 2:13.

However God knows how much any person understands...and judges him accordingly...I Cor 4:5...

In the innocency of mine integrity have I done this thing...all the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes...no man gets up in the morning and says ah today I'll be a VILLAIN...

Is that why your God of the Bible slaughters men, women and children, not to mention fetuses, throughout the Bible, because he loves us so much? Do you realize that the greatest abortionist in the Bible is God of the Bible?

According to those who have had NDE the Light does not judge us. The Light accepts all souls. They go through a life review in which events of their life are presented to them. They see the good and bad things they have done. They feel the pain they have given others and the joy they have spread. Life on earth is a learning experience for the soul, not a one time deal where you better know and understand the rules or die.

When one accepts God as being an entity of love, what NDEr's say makes far more sense then anything found in the Bible.

What does the Bible say about its God? He is;

JEALOUS
VENGEFUL
SELFISH
BAD TEMPERED
VAIN
CRUEL
KILLER OF CHILDREN
KILLS BECAUSE OF RELIGIOUS BELIEFS

Is that what you call love?

Indeed the bible gives God a bad name. He is according to your bible a God full of hate not love.