If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

How do I know the Bible is fiction and folklore? Because in some of its stories, it matches the lore of other groups and, because, in some instances, archaeological evidence contradicts the Bible (the sojourn of the Jews in Egypt).

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When I was growing up in the Catholic Church in the Arch-Diocese of Detroit, there were two letters written by the Arch-bishop that were read annually. One dealt with the right of parents to use, and, the need for the corporeal punishment of children. "Spare the rod and spoil the child," was the code the archbishop ordered all to live by.

Early in my schooling, I suspect in 2nd grade, the nun who taught my class told the story of a little girl who struck her mother, although the mother never struck her back. This unfortunate child died at age seven and was buried. Her hand, however, emerged from her grave and showed above ground. The mother was told by the priest to cut a switch and beat the hand, which the mother did, and the hand was withdrawn into the eart.

As young as I was, I thought it bunk. However, that story and the Archbishop's letter pretty much summed up the Catholic way of rearing children.

(The other letter dealt with the dangers of "keeping company." If couples did not intend to marry within a year's period, they were not to see each other exclusively.)

And everytime we go over it you never explain how you rationalize the radical change of your God from a raging tyrant to ultra forgiver. Perhaps God whipped himself up some Prozac.

Until you finally get the significance of what Jesus said.

JESUS said that until both Heaven and Earth pass away...NONE OF THE LAW SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH!

Not one letter...not one stroke of one letter.

There is absolutely nothing in anything JESUS said that indicates he was intending in any way to do away with any of the law.



Well then listen to what he said. He said he was not here to change the law!!!

Have Heaven and Earth passed away????

And what is this fulfilled?

How did Jesus "fulfill"...

"If a man has a stubborn and unruly son who will not listen to
his father or mother, and will not obey them even though they
chastise him, his father and mother shall have him apprehended
and brought out to the elders at the gate of his home city, where
...his fellow citizens shall stone him to death." Deuteronomy 22:18ff

Don't you see it, Thunder? Don't you see the rationalization that is needed to cover up the problems with this mythology?

As a matter of fact, the early Christians did exactly that.

They were Jews.

Things only started to change when Paul decided to hijack the religion...and peddle it to the "pagans"...to the gentiles.

And huge segments of the early Christians fought him tooth and nail on this very thing.

But even Paul didn't really think that followers of Christ were completely absolved from the dictates of the Law.

He dealt almost exclusively with two sticking points in expanding the new religion among the gentiles....circumcision and dietary restrictions.

Paul claimed the new converts (to what he considered a segment of Judaism) were not subject to those two requirements.

He certainly did not say nor teach...and probably never even considered...exempting people from the Law.


That stuff was just invented after the gentiles took over the religion...and decided it was a good idea to divorce themselves from the god of the Old Testament...for reasons that are easily understood.

Now...what you and Thunder are doing is pretty much buying into this transparent rationalization.

There is an excellent public television documentary that is part of the Empires series that deals with some of the points that Frank makes. It's the program on the Jews. There is also a book you might like to look at called, "Who Wrote the Bible?"

All this reminds me that there were several competing sets of scripture in the years following the crucifixion. Among them were what are today known as the Dead Sea Scrolls.

POM...I appreciate your may comments...and we are of like mind.

I agree with the reasons you have for doubting....very strongly doubting...that the Bible is anything more than mythology (or fiction and folklore, if you prefer.)

I understand why you want to characterize it as "I know..."...but I feel uncomfortable with that characterization, and do not use it myself.

One of the problems I run into when debating Christians...is that they use the expression "I know..." much too loosely...so I suggest it is better to avoid doing the same thing from our side of the fence.

But I want to stress that we are of like mind on most of the issue.

Frank -- Your point is well taken. I was imitating some of the rhetoric here.

One of the problems with claims made on behalf of the Bible, is that they all fall into the same lines they've fallen into for years. Why wouldn't there be cadres of environmentalists in heaven? Why wouldn't hell be populated with women who marked each intercourse with a pregnancy and who were so worn out that they failed to educate or even properly care for her kids? There is more than one way to be moral and more than two to be immoral.

That explanation has always seems extremely lame to me. It makes it sound as though Jesus was a successor to the throne (new God, new rules). It does not even come close to explaining why God would suddenly change from a raging vengeful tyrant to an ultra forgiver. On top of that we are expected to believe that the key to this newfound forgive all attitude is belief in his son that he sent down to have brutally murdered.

Yes, murdered indeed. Death is the Biblical God's solution to all problems.

Kill them all and I'll keep the few I like.

Isn't that what Revelations say? Isn't that the hope of the conservative Christian?

Rapture. Death to the unbelievers. A city of gold and pearls. Eternal life for the believers.

AND THE COW JUMPED OVER THE MOON.

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First of All, I am so happy to be around here to meet new people, make new friends and discuss religion. I am a theoholic: p and have learned so many things about different religions thru all my life. By curiosity I recently read the Koran, at first it was hard to understand because I was judgmental but what I have acknowledged is that it left in my mind a beautiful feeling but couldn't explain what it was. So I was like, what if this is the truth that I spent years and years looking for. I always felt in my heart that God is one, so powerful, so well organized, so just, so beautiful to create the earth and the Universe in such an artistic fashion, obeying Laws so perfectly designed, such as If the Earth spins just a little bit faster, no one would survive in earth and that's something that contradicts the theory of that everything happens randomly. Anyhow, thru all my life I never paid attention to all the Hardship that every one of us go thru and never asked myself before why those hardships if God is the creator of the Universe and can save us all from it and make our life peaceful and enjoyable. The Koran is talking about both, love and hate in the same time, about good and bad...etc so I started reading Islam and found out that God tells us to be patient, to be strong and turn to him when a calamity happens and with doing that our heart and soul purifies itself from wrongdoing. God says that all this is a test and if we fail and don't stay firm against our wrongdoings like committing adultery, killing, getting angry…etc we get stronger and stronger day by day and sin less. God also is helping us thru his teachings how to live in freedom from being controlled by our unjust desires. Yes, God basically is trying to save us from the real punishment and telling us that he amazingly created the Heavens for us to fulfill all the desires we have being created with because that's where we belong. Just as he is, God is giving us all an opportunity to clean ourselves thru the hardships off this not lasting life and will reward justly every one of us based on how we do in this life. If we all think a moment and ask ourselves, why nothing could satisfy our desires or why the enjoyment don't last more than a moment , example sex, food,...etc. Well what I have learned from reading the Koran is that our desires would only be fulfilled in where we belong, and God is telling us to be patient and submit to him fully thru the laws of Islam to purify ourselves. God is perfect but we are not simply because he gave us freedom of will and does not intervene in choosing the way we go but guides us to the right path because he sees everything but our sight is very limited. God created all his other creations without a freedom of will so all is submitting to his will but us until we choose to and also God will destroy who do not obey him by throwing him/her to Hellfire, and if you read what is said about how Hellfire will be nobody could ever sleep after that, either hearing about Hell or the Heavens. The King of the Heavens Gabriel (AS) was ordered by God to go look at the Heavens and Hellfire to tell God what he thinks. Gabriel said : Everybody will choose to live in the Heavens, and nobody would ever choose Hellfire. But God knows that is not the case. In fact Hellfire will ask for more human beings in the Day of Judgment and an enormous number of people will go.
Bottom line, God is helping all of us thru the first step of purification. He is describing the Heavens in an amazing way in the Koran and the teachings of his prophet (Peace be upon Him) to help us stay firm against our desires and actions and also warn us and describes with a lot of details and pictures how the eternal extreme punishment will look like if we don't control our desires and be patient and stay firm and strong against anything that could take us to disobey Him. God is just so he is giving us a chance to win the ticket to the Heavens where ultimate continuous enjoyment is waiting for us. For men, Just knowing that the most beautiful woman ever sent to Earth will be uglier than the less beautiful woman in the Heavens will guide you to do better in your life.
God wants us to be better than all his creations. He gave us freedom of will and wants only pure human beings to live eternally in peace and enjoyment in his Gardens of joy, How long we are going to live for ? 100 years? Eternal life could last 1000000000000000000000000000000000000 years and I know it will be more than that. So what this first life represents? 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% I think it represents ZERO or 0
I just felt like sharing with you my experience in life and hope someone learns from this and hope to hear from you, dear friends.

Michael

Michael

Quick...

...look the word "paragraphs" up in a dictionary.

Then think about the word!

Frank

Paragraphs or not it would still be the same religious gibberish.

And spammed to four different threads.

Or maybe it is someone who has been truly enlightened and has found comfort in the fact that God does not hate us.

Frank and AU, that was extremely rude to someone who was merely reaching out and sharing their thought, feelings and beliefs. Shame.

People do not have to accept religion but I see no need to trash people who do.

I agree with bella della (?) on about the first or second page of why there is a hell even though Jesus died for our sins. (according to my beliefs.)

Jesus was preordained since the formation of the world to die for our sins so that we might be saved.

Otherwise each and every sin we commit would send us to hell.

This way, if accept Jesus in our hearts, when we sin, we ask for forgiveness and try to sin no more we are then forgiven for our sins.

I agree...though I'm not sure why that person posted the same message on different threads...

Thunder
Why you wonder did he post it on four threads at once? He did it to proselytize and spread his message. Let him save that for his house of religion. I offer no apologies. I also slam the door with a few choice words when the Jehovah witnesses come to call.

Even so, he should have at least put it in a coherent fashion that enables us to read it easily. Making it more difficult to read only hinders his ability to convey his message and does no harm to us, unless of course his message happens to be, "Run for a bunker quick! A missile's heading your way!"

Still, I must admit, they were kinda rude.

I think compared to what gets posted. They were rather benign.