If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

Momma Angel wrote:

Let me rephrase that As far as Zeus goes, I DO NOT BELIEVE you will be hearing from him (nor do I even guess I'd want to believe you would.)

Ahhh...you were talking about me!!!

Yer right, MA...I won't be hearing from Zeus. Or any of the gods.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:

Let me rephrase that As far as Zeus goes, I DO NOT BELIEVE you will be hearing from him (nor do I even guess I'd want to believe you would.)

Ahhh...you were talking about me!!!

Yer right, MA...I won't be hearing from Zeus. Or any of the gods.

Zeus,Deus is the latin root for Dieu(french) Dios(Spanish)
God(english)Gott(German) come from Yod(Hebrew) which means "10". :wink:

Even some of you other Christians must cringe when listening to Neo's "reasoning"...although some of you are so far in denial yourselves...perhaps you buy into it.

So...Neo would have us all accept that Adam and Eve are at fault for so much.

In this silly fairytale...Adam and Eve are placed in Eden with an injuction not to eat the fruit of a particular tree. No reason for the tree to be there...no reason for it to be accessible...the tree is just put there by the god of the fairytale to tempt them.

The god allows Satan to agitate toward temptation. Satan, the master of deceit and temptation...against two new borns...people without the knowledge of the difference between good and evil...right and wrong.
. . .
Even some of you other Christians must cringe when listening to Neo's "reasoning"...although some of you are so far in denial yourselves...perhaps you buy into it.

neologist wrote:

mesquite wrote:

Neo, stop and think. Sickness and death are part of the life cycle of all living things. It is not just a concept for humans. Humans are not that much different biologically from other animals on this earth.

OK, I'm sorry. I just figured that since some of the folks were using the bible to trash the God of the bible, I would just bring up an explanation based on the bible.

You see; if the bible is correct, then all this talk about how nasty is God for killing all those 'innocents' is simply a straw man.

Whether it is trashing or not depends on your point of reference. The way I see it is some were using the first person references in the Bible to help determine the personality characteristics which were the subject of disagreement.

You see; if the bible is correct, then all this talk about how nasty is God for killing all those 'innocents' is simply a straw man.

Why is it a straw man?

Who needs support for it? Asking for support for it is absurd. Are you saying your god didn't know Satan was going to rebel? And many Christians...don't think the serpent was Satan.

There is a perfectly good reason for the tree to have been there. It's called 'free will'.

Adam and Eve had intuitive knowledge of good and bad built into their consciences.

The tree represented their free choice to continue with God's arrangement. They chose to opt out.

You keep presenting them as newborns. I don't know where you got that idea. Adam had been around long enough to name the animals. He was a full grown adult, able to recognize Eve as his wife 'a woman'.

I used to crush guys in weightlifting meets back in the 60's, but I'll bet I was never a match for him in physical strength.

He was smarter than any of us. What makes you guess he was naive?

And I sure hope I make at least a few other 'christians' cringe when I tell them there is no such thing as a burning hell, the trinity, the rapture, or an immortal soul.

neologist wrote:

You see; if the bible is correct, then all this talk about how nasty is God for killing all those 'innocents' is simply a straw man.

InfraBlue wrote:

Why is it a straw man?

You will notice I qualified my statement with an if. That would mean, according to the bible, the fault of all the misery in the world lies with Satan and that God is merciful, loving and just.

All of which makes Frank's statements misrepresentations.

It's easy for Frank to attack the straw man; and when challenged to support any of his allegations, he resorts to statements like this:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Who needs support for it? Asking for support for it is absurd. Are you saying your god didn't know Satan was going to rebel? And many Christians...don't think the serpent was Satan.

To which I answer:
Why would God have to read Satan's mind? Where does it say that the all knowing God is under any necessity in this regard? And many christians believe there is a burning hell. So what?

Adam and Eve had intuitive knowledge of good and bad built into their consciences.

Oh really. I must have missed that passage. Do you mind giving a citation for the passage.

My Bibles show that Adam and Eve DID NOT know right from wrong...good from evil. And it says that your idiot god intended that they not know that difference...that he wanted them not to gain that knowledge.

I think you are just bullshyting here, Neo.

The tree represented their free choice to continue with God's arrangement. They chose to opt out.

The tree, in this pitiful fairytale...was part of the sting your idiot god set up for the couple.

You keep presenting them as newborns. I don't know where you got that idea. Adam had been around long enough to name the animals. He was a full grown adult, able to recognize Eve as his wife 'a woman'.

He "named" the animals before Eve was made. Eve comes on the scene in the last three verses of Chapter 2 of Genesis. In the first verse of Chapter 3...she encounters the serpent.

Seems she had just been made.

Oh, my, my...aren't you impressive. How the hell do you know how strong Adam was? Is that another passage I missed?

He was smarter than any of us. What makes you guess he was naive?

Ah...another passage I missed. You are no end of new information.

And you are full of shyt...making this crap up as you go along.

And I sure hope I make at least a few other 'christians' cringe when I tell them there is no such thing as a burning hell, the trinity, the rapture, or an immortal soul.

You certainly make me cringe, Neo.

neologist wrote:

neologist wrote:

You see; if the bible is correct, then all this talk about how nasty is God for killing all those 'innocents' is simply a straw man.

InfraBlue wrote:

Why is it a straw man?

You will notice I qualified my statement with an if. That would mean, according to the bible, the fault of all the misery in the world lies with Satan and that God is merciful, loving and just.

And why does this follow???

In any case...your god is not the despicable, nasty, psychopathic, vengeful, quick-to-anger etc. etc. murderous, barbarian I say it is simply because it slaughtered a bunch of innocent people in Egypt. The god is all of those things every time it is on the scene....and never is on the scene showing any of the loving traits you people claim it to be.

Neo,
Adam was not perfect. If he was perfect, he would not have created the first sin.

It follows because all of us are deserving of death. None of us are innocent, not the Jews and not the Egyptians.

The Egyptians of Exodus are now dead and have been acquitted of their sin. The Jews of Exodus are dead and have been acquitted of their sin. The promise for both groups is the same.

That there is much more to the story than you are wont to believe is illustrated by the reported activities of God's firstborn son and representative, Jesus.

If you wonder why I keep posting, Frank...

... it may be I no longer post on your behalf, but on behalf of those onlookers who can recognize the difference between civil discourse and maniacal diatribe.

Neo,
Adam was not perfect. If he was perfect, he would not have created the first sin.

Neo, I am not agreeing with Frank's argument. Free will was always there. My only comment is that Adam was not perfect. If he was perfect before the sin then he became imperfect after it. If he was perfect, he would not have created the sin. It is because of free will that he committed the sin.

neologist wrote:

It follows because all of us are deserving of death. None of us are innocent, not the Jews and not the Egyptians.

What the hell are you talking about???

We all are going to die? I have no idea of what this "deserving of death" is about? Death is not a punishment...no matter what your silly fairytale tells you. Death is a natural part of existence.

Quote:

The Egyptians of Exodus are now dead and have been acquitted of their sin. The Jews of Exodus are dead and have been acquitted of their sin. The promise for both groups is the same.

Acquited (sic) of their sins??? You mean Acquitted (sic) of having offended that clown from the Bible?

What is your point?

Quote:

That there is much more to the story than you are wont to believe is illustrated by the reported activities of God's firstborn son and representative, Jesus.

The fairytale does go on and on.

So???

Quote:

If you wonder why I keep posting, Frank...

I don't wonder about that at all. Why should I?

Quote:

... it may be I no longer post on your behalf, but on behalf of those onlookers who can recognize the difference between civil discourse and maniacal diatribe.

And which side are you representing?

Intrepid wrote:

Neo,
Adam was not perfect. If he was perfect, he would not have created the first sin.

"Sin" is anything done that offends your god.

When did Satan first offend your god?

Frank Apisa wrote:

neologist wrote:

It follows because all of us are deserving of death. None of us are innocent, not the Jews and not the Egyptians.

What the hell are you talking about???

We all are going to die? I have no idea of what this "deserving of death" is about? Death is not a punishment...no matter what your silly fairytale tells you. Death is a natural part of existence.

Quote:

The Egyptians of Exodus are now dead and have been acquitted of their sin. The Jews of Exodus are dead and have been acquitted of their sin. The promise for both groups is the same.

Acquited (sic) of their sins??? You mean Acquitted (sic) of having offended that clown from the Bible?

What is your point?

Quote:

That there is much more to the story than you are wont to believe is illustrated by the reported activities of God's firstborn son and representative, Jesus.

The fairytale does go on and on.

So???

Quote:

If you wonder why I keep posting, Frank...

I don't wonder about that at all. Why should I?

Quote:

... it may be I no longer post on your behalf, but on behalf of those onlookers who can recognize the difference between civil discourse and maniacal diatribe.

And which side are you representing?

Why do you ask Frank? Here is some of my maniacal diatribe:

You 'use' the book of Genesis so well, I'm surprised you missed the point that if Adam and Eve had not sinned, they would not have died. Or did you not miss it and just guess you could ignore it?

I know you don't like to use this part of the bible when you are caterwauling about that part of the bible, but this is where I got the rest of the information; FYI.

Romans 5:12: "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned."

Romans 6:23 "For the wages sin pays is death. . ."

Romans 6:7: "For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin."

Frank Apisa wrote:

Intrepid wrote:

Neo,
Adam was not perfect. If he was perfect, he would not have created the first sin.

"Sin" is anything done that offends your god.

When did Satan first offend your god?

If Satan had sinned before tempting Eve, why would we not have been told of it? Even after the Edenic episode, in Noah's time, many angels chose to side with Satan. Were they also naive?