If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

dyslexia wrote:

Actually it's religion itself that is at the heart of evil. Organization only makes it more efficient.

Can you explain what you mean, dys?

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shiyacic aleksandar wrote:

Ask Him loudly and youll get an answer!

Ask Zeus loudly...and he'll gve you an answer also. But some of us, unlike you, prefer not to kid ourselves.

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I can't believe I am making this statement. Don't pass out, Frank!

But AS FAR AS ZEUS goes, you definitely will hear nothing from him.

Laughing

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Momma Angel wrote:

I can't believe I am making this statement. Don't pass out, Frank!

But AS FAR AS ZEUS goes, you definitely will hear nothing from him.

You just are unwilling to believe, MA. If you would just BELIEVE...and HAVE FAITH that he will answer you....HE WILL.

Sometimes he will answer in ways you won't completely understand. And maybe that is where you are having trouble.

Sometimes the answer is not a YES...and sometimes it is not even a NO. Sometimes it is something so different from either...you just won't be able to fathom it.

But if you BELIEVE...and if you have FAITH...he WILL ANSWER.

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Ticomaya wrote:

dyslexia wrote:
Actually it's religion itself that is at the heart of evil. Organization only makes it more efficient.

Can you explain what you mean, dys?

Well I can offer my opinion and, for the sake of this discussion restrict "religion" to mean the sons/daughters of Abraham. I find this definition of religion from the American Heritage Dictionary-"

Quote:

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

Using this definiton I find the very idea of "supernatural" to be evil not only in the alienation of "believers" from the natural world they inhabit but from "non-believers" as well. This provides license for acts of evil against "non-believers as well as license for "believers" to be aloof from acts of evil against the natural world itself. In the bible for instance "mankind" is given dominion over the "natural" world which, in the least of evil, excuses the "true believer" and legitamizes an attitude of "superiority" resulting in "morality" or "ethics" not applicable to "other than fellow believers." Given that religion is mostly a derivitive of "place" ie one is most likely born into his/her religion, one becomes "superor" by accident of birth rendering the muslim of Iran in the same light as the baptist of Atlanta. Both of course see themselves as believers of the height good and truth. I could go on but no one will read this anyway.

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Let me rephrase that As far as Zeus goes, I DO NOT BELIEVE you will be hearing from him (nor do I even guess I'd want to believe you would.)

Laughing

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I read it, but I don't agree with it.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Let me rephrase that As far as Zeus goes, I DO NOT BELIEVE you will be hearing from him (nor do I even guess I'd want to believe you would.)

Ahhh...you were talking about me!!!

Yer right, MA...I won't be hearing from Zeus. Or any of the gods. Twisted Evil

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Or at least, that is my guess.

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Frank,
Do you really think that believing will bring words of comfort or whatever from a known mythical being? Greek mythology has nice stories but they are not real. :-)

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Morning Intrepid!

I venture a guess here and say Frank will probably say something like, "well, your God's not real either." That's just a guess on my part.

Dys,

I read it and I also do not agree with you. I think you misunderstand. Believers, as you call them, ARE NOT supposed to take God's grace and forgiveness as license to do anything wrong, evil, etc. We are given laws and rules to live by and we are not excused from following them. And it in no way gives anyone license to an attitude of superiority. Unfortunately, some have taken this license, but not all have.

It is man that has free will and makes the choice whether to obey the law or not.

Tico,

Good morning! Good to see you!

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Intrepid wrote:

Frank,
Do you really think that believing will bring words of comfort or whatever from a known mythical being? Greek mythology has nice stories but they are not real. :-)

Yeah...I do.

Even though you suppose Zeus to be a "known mythical being"....doesn't mean some people cannot delude themselves into thinking it is not mythical.

Look....you folks think the god of the Bible is loving, kind, and compassionate.

If people can delude themselves to that extent...why on earth would you suppose they could not delude themselves about the existence of Zeus?

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dyslexia wrote:

Ticomaya wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
Actually it's religion itself that is at the heart of evil. Organization only makes it more efficient.

Can you explain what you mean, dys?

Well I can offer my opinion and, for the sake of this discussion restrict "religion" to mean the sons/daughters of Abraham. I find this definition of religion from the American Heritage Dictionary-"
Quote:
Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

Using this definiton I find the very idea of "supernatural" to be evil not only in the alienation of "believers" from the natural world they inhabit but from "non-believers" as well. This provides license for acts of evil against "non-believers as well as license for "believers" to be aloof from acts of evil against the natural world itself. In the bible for instance "mankind" is given dominion over the "natural" world which, in the least of evil, excuses the "true believer" and legitamizes an attitude of "superiority" resulting in "morality" or "ethics" not applicable to "other than fellow believers." Given that religion is mostly a derivitive of "place" ie one is most likely born into his/her religion, one becomes "superor" by accident of birth rendering the muslim of Iran in the same light as the baptist of Atlanta. Both of course see themselves as believers of the height good and truth. I could go on but no one will read this anyway.

It was difficult to read, but it was a good effort. Let me try and sum it up to see if I was able to follow you: You find the idea of a "supernatural" to be evil, because you don't believe in things "supernatural," and you think that those who do have an attitude of "superiority," and that provides "license for acts of evil against 'non-believers.'" You appear to think a by-product of religion is an "aloofness" in superior attitude that is evil. So, boiled down, you think religion is evil because it causes believers to consider themselves as "superior." One who believes, say, that Jesus is their personal Lord and Savior, considers themself superior to non-Christians, because they believe they know the truth and others don't ... and the same is true for Jews, Muslims, etc. -- and that is evil. So, simply believing in God is evil. Is that what you think?

Morning, MA. Very Happy

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dyslexia wrote:

Ticomaya wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
Actually it's religion itself that is at the heart of evil. Organization only makes it more efficient.

Can you explain what you mean, dys?

Well I can offer my opinion and, for the sake of this discussion restrict "religion" to mean the sons/daughters of Abraham. I find this definition of religion from the American Heritage Dictionary-"
Quote:
Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

Using this definiton I find the very idea of "supernatural" to be evil not only in the alienation of "believers" from the natural world they inhabit but from "non-believers" as well. This provides license for acts of evil against "non-believers as well as license for "believers" to be aloof from acts of evil against the natural world itself. In the bible for instance "mankind" is given dominion over the "natural" world which, in the least of evil, excuses the "true believer" and legitamizes an attitude of "superiority" resulting in "morality" or "ethics" not applicable to "other than fellow believers." Given that religion is mostly a derivitive of "place" ie one is most likely born into his/her religion, one becomes "superor" by accident of birth rendering the muslim of Iran in the same light as the baptist of Atlanta. Both of course see themselves as believers of the height good and truth. I could go on but no one will read this anyway.

I read this, and I agree with it. I also feel very superior to the religious people because of that.

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Quote:

So, simply believing in God is evil. Is that what you think?

In essense Yes. You might say believing in god is un-natural.(or if you prefer "supernatural.")

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So Dys,

My believing in God makes me evil?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Neo,

I'm not so sure it's organized religion at the core of human suffering. Isn't it more what man has done with organized religion?

Who organized religion?

One of the huge problems, especially when it comes to the bible, is the failure of many to get the sense of what has been written. What should be obvious idiomatic statements are often taken literally. For example, the seven 'days' of creation are not equal to 24 hours each in length any more than my grandfather's 'day' represented only one date on the calendar.

The confusion has been compounded because both believers and non believers have exploited these incorrect interpretations, the former to oppress the flock, the latter to attack as straw men. Their motivation to do so is the moral license such misrepresentation provides.

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Momma Angel wrote:

So Dys,

My believing in God makes me evil?

You're not evil ... it's your belief in God that is evil .... right, dys?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
Frank,
Do you really think that believing will bring words of comfort or whatever from a known mythical being? Greek mythology has nice stories but they are not real. :-)

Yeah...I do.

Even though you suppose Zeus to be a "known mythical being"....doesn't mean some people cannot delude themselves into thinking it is not mythical.

Look....you folks think the god of the Bible is loving, kind, and compassionate.

If people can delude themselves to that extent...why on earth would you suppose they could not delude themselves about the existence of Zeus?

Zeus does exist. We know him by a different name: Satan.

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Neo,

I do understand what you are saying, but, if religion was followed as it was meant to be then there wouldn't be the problem. Everything goes right back to man's misinterpretation and passing that along to others, etc., and from there it gets more and more distorted.

Just as it is not the justice system that is the root of the problem, it's what man has done with the justice system, how man has interpreted it.

Personally, I think we take all the straw men, throw them in a pile, and toss a match to it! Laughing

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If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

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