If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

neologist wrote:

watchmakers guidedog wrote:
Death entered the world.

Amusing concept if you know anything much about biology.

Not nearly as amusing as the myth of the immortal soul.

Why is that amusing?
Energy cannot be destroyed, only changed. We are energy so why would you think that we would be destroyed and just cease to exist in some form?

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A REQUEST:

Listen...

...some people are having a cyber election of sorts (for president of A2K)...and I have decided to run for the office.

Apparently it is entirely ceremonial...since Craven owns the site and he is gonna be the big cheese no matter what happens in this cockamamie election.

In any case...it appears some procedural meneuvers are taking place that may (MAY) prevent me from appearing on the ballot. I get the feeling that a minimum number of primary votes will be needed to make the final list of names.

I understand that occasionally I get passionate...and throw some shyt at some of the people to whom I am addressing this request...but, if you ever intend to get elected to anything...you gotta have desire and balls.

And "balls"...I've got in abundance.

So...even if you hate the thought of seeing my avatar in a thread in which you are a participant...I would appreciate you taking time to visit the thread linked below...and casting a vote for my name.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=50016&start=100

YOU WILL NOT BE VOTING FOR ME...because the election is not even scheduled (as far as I know) yet...and this is like a primary to see who will make it to the final ballot.

You might hold your nose if necessary to do it...with the thought in mind that you could come to the actual election; vote against me; and hope for a humiliating landslide in someone else's favor.

Thank you for at least considering my request.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

neologist wrote:
Xing; It is not God who lacks the characteristics of love and justice.

Xingu didn't say it is God who was lacking anything. He specifically said "The god of the Bible...."

The best guess that can be made about that pathetic cartoon god is that it bears as much resemblance to any real GOD that might actually exist...as does Pan or Thor.

Quote:
It is the religious leaders and politicians who have hijacked His word.

Do you know for a fact there is a God?

If not...perhaps the only thing being hijacked are the words of superstitious ancient people.

Sorry, Frank. I meant to say the God of the Bible. But you can forgive me, right? After all I was born in New Jersey. (But that was before the years had numbers.)
I don't remember seeing any cartoons in my Bible. Perhaps someone slipped one in your Bible as a bookmark.
As for whether I know for a fact there is a God. I do. But I came about this knowledge against my wishes. It was a heck of a lot more convenient to discount His existence.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Thank you for at least considering my request.

I voted for you Frank. But only because you're an old geezer from New Jersey!

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Bella Dea wrote:

neologist wrote:
watchmakers guidedog wrote:
Energy cannot be destroyed, only changed. We are energy so why would you think that we would be destroyed and just cease to exist in some form?

The problem is when you leave our dimension all the rules change. How can someone in this dimension understand anything happening in another when all the laws they live by no longer apply?

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Bella Dea wrote:

neologist wrote:
watchmakers guidedog wrote:
Death entered the world.

Amusing concept if you know anything much about biology.

Not nearly as amusing as the myth of the immortal soul.

Why is that amusing?
Energy cannot be destroyed, only changed. We are energy so why would you think that we would be destroyed and just cease to exist in some form?

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xingu wrote:

The problem is when you leave our dimension all the rules change. How can someone in this dimension understand anything happening in another when all the laws they live by no longer apply?

That's true as far as it goes. We are able to describe our existence only in terms of space and time. We can perceive these entities, yet they remain incomprehensible to us. It is my unprovable assertion that God has either created or fabricated these constructs in order for us to experience reality. He certainly must have a control over space and time which transcends us.

That being said, I have to ask again: What is so bad about existing on earth? Later on in the book of Genesis,we read of angels who were so fascinated with earth (and women) that they forsook their heavenly places. There must be something about feeling the wind in your face that can't be realized anywhere else.

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neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Thank you for at least considering my request.

I voted for you Frank. But only because you're an old geezer from New Jersey!

Thank you...the vote counts more than the reason. Twisted Evil

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I don't recall saying anything about existence on earth being bad. However I'm sure that there were many people in the past and present whose lives are so miserable that they may think that life on earth is a punishment.

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neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
neologist wrote:
Xing; It is not God who lacks the characteristics of love and justice.

Xingu didn't say it is God who was lacking anything. He specifically said "The god of the Bible...."

The best guess that can be made about that pathetic cartoon god is that it bears as much resemblance to any real GOD that might actually exist...as does Pan or Thor.

Quote:
It is the religious leaders and politicians who have hijacked His word.

Do you know for a fact there is a God?

If not...perhaps the only thing being hijacked are the words of superstitious ancient people.

Sorry, Frank. I meant to say the God of the Bible. But you can forgive me, right? After all I was born in New Jersey. (But that was before the years had numbers.)

One...no need for "forgiveness"...that is a meaningless phrase to me.

Glad to see you've got some NJ in ya. You're up two clicks for that.

Quote:

I don't remember seeing any cartoons in my Bible.

You didn't look closely enough.

Open your heart and mind to the idea....and it will hit you like a sledgehammer.

Quote:

Perhaps someone slipped one in your Bible as a bookmark.

Nope.

Here is a list of my Bibles. Cartoon god in all of 'em.

St. Joseph Edition of The New American Bible; Catholic book Publishing, NY; 1968 (Catholic)

The New American Bible; Thomas Nelson Inc, Nashville; 1971 (Catholic)

The Holy Bible King James Version; Thomas Nelson, Nashville: 1984 (Protestant)

The Holy Bible New International Version; Zondervan Bible Pub. Grand Rapids; 1978 (Non-demoninational)

The Scofield Reference Holy Bible (King James Version); Oxford Univ. Press; NY; 1909 (Protestant)

The Holy Scriptures Masoretic Text; Jewish Publ Society; Philadelphia: 1955 (Jewish)

The Holy Bible, St.Joseph Textbook Edition, Confraternity Version; Catholic book Publ: NY; 1963; (Catholic)

The Holy Bible Revised Berkeley Version; The Gideons Intrl; 1984; (Non-denominational Protestant)

The New American Catholic Edition of The Holy Bible; Benziger Bros, Boston; 1950 (Catholic)

The Old Testament; Guild Press NY; 1965 (Catholic)

The Living Bible; Holman Illustrated Edition: A.J. Holman Co; Philadelphia; 1973 (Protestant)

The Holy Bible; King James Version; The World Publ Co: Cleveland; (no date); (Protestant)

The Old Testament; Hebrew Publishing Co: NY; 1916 (English & Hebrew) (Jewish)

Quote:

As for whether I know for a fact there is a God. I do. But I came about this knowledge against my wishes. It was a heck of a lot more convenient to discount His existence.

Oh, really!

Wanna share that story with us.

And perhaps you can tell us about the unexpected qualities the God has.

And remember...if your God happens to be the god described in the Bible...he doesn't like fibbing. You can trade in slaves without incurring his wrath...but fibbing gets you into deep shyt. Twisted Evil

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xingu wrote:

I don't recall saying anything about existence on earth being bad. However I'm sure that there were many people in the past and present whose lives are so miserable that they may think that life on earth is a punishment.

See; we agree on something. A toast:

http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/cheers.gif

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xingu wrote:

Bella Dea wrote:
neologist wrote:
watchmakers guidedog wrote:
Energy cannot be destroyed, only changed. We are energy so why would you think that we would be destroyed and just cease to exist in some form?

The problem is when you leave our dimension all the rules change. How can someone in this dimension understand anything happening in another when all the laws they live by no longer apply?

X...

...still peddling that belief system of yours, I see.

Hey...perseverence is a virtue (I think).

Hope you've been well.

Long time no see.

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Quote:

Energy cannot be destroyed, only changed. We are energy so why would you think that we would be destroyed and just cease to exist in some form?

The only one who destroy it, is the one who has created it.

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The notion that the Son of God came to earth to die for our sins is the main reason I am not a Christian. I was about 12 or 13 when I asked my mother whether the Crucifixion was a simultaneous event on many planets -- i.e., did Christ have a sort of astral body that he projected to many places to allow all of the people on all of the planets to be "saved;" or was the Crucifixion only necessary here on Earth because we're alone in the universe; or were there other gods who governed other planets.

My mother answered that maybe we were so much worse than all the other people on all the other planets that the Crucifixion was only necessary here.

I thought my mother had a negative, defeatist attitude but did not tell her so. She would have slapped me.

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Quote:

other people on all the other planets

...what other people?

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thunder_runner32 wrote:

Quote:
other people on all the other planets

...what other people?

Right on, thunder. When you look carefully at the challenge made by Satan in the beginning, he questions God's integrity and His right to sovereignty. Perhaps he thought that God would have to either destroy Adam and Eve on the spot or rescind the death penalty. Either of these actions would have been a victory for Satan.

God immediately set forth the events leading to the salvation of mankind and the vindication of his name, his integrity, his right to be God.

So, the salvation of the human race is only of secondary importance to the universe. (Very important to us, of course) However, the issue of universal sovereignty is something that must be settled here once and for all. If it had already been settled somewhere else, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

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neologist wrote:

have a solid marriage based on trust.
I and my family are free from the consequences of alcoholism, fornication and countless other pitfalls. We don't have to contemplate the plight of those suffering single parenthood (or worse) to know these things are to be avoided.

And I ask:

What has religion got to do with your solid marriage and freedom from alcoholism? there are people with solid marriages who are sober who don't believe in god.

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I think the idea of hell is more of a sign of hopelessness than aetheism is.
Why would a "merciful" god condemn his creation to hell? If such a god would do such a thing, then we mean no more to him than a failed pencil sketch means to an art student, who recycles the paper on which it is drawn.

A few years after I asked my mother about the crucifixion, I decided that hell is a stupid notion and a corruption of the idea of re-incarnation. Re-incarnation allows the creatures to learn, grow and develop. That made sense to my 15 year old self and makes sense today.

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plainoldme wrote:

neologist wrote:

have a solid marriage based on trust.
I and my family are free from the consequences of alcoholism, fornication and countless other pitfalls. We don't have to contemplate the plight of those suffering single parenthood (or worse) to know these things are to be avoided.

And I ask:

What has religion got to do with your solid marriage and freedom from alcoholism? there are people with solid marriages who are sober who don't believe in god.

Good question: I'm sorry to have seemed sanctimonious. The world has mostly clean living, good and sober people. I was just trying to say that the Bible provides a sound guide for living. You can't go wrong if you follow it. Additionally, it provides information about God's purpose for the earth and how he plans to accomplish it. Not knowing this information could be tragic. (John 17:3, Rev 18:4)

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plainoldme wrote:

I think the idea of hell is more of a sign of hopelessness than aetheism is.
Why would a "merciful" god condemn his creation to hell? If such a god would do such a thing, then we mean no more to him than a failed pencil sketch means to an art student, who recycles the paper on which it is drawn.

A few years after I asked my mother about the crucifixion, I decided that hell is a stupid notion and a corruption of the idea of re-incarnation. Re-incarnation allows the creatures to learn, grow and develop. That made sense to my 15 year old self and makes sense today.

Right, hell is a stupid notion. Wrong, God did not intend for us to live life in a revolving door.

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If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

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