If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

Pauligirl wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
Pauligirl,

I don't think those are traits only Christians can have! I was responding to something Lightwizard had asked me.

Please do not confuse me with Christians that think they know the whole truth and condemn others because they don't believe the same way. I firmly believe in everyone's right to their own beliefs and as a Christian, Muslim, Buddist, etc., they are entitled to that. I apologize if I didn't make my post clear.

From the little I do know about other religions, I believe they all have something along the line of love they neighbor, do unto others, etc.

I hope I cleared that up.

Not really. You still left out the non-believers. You don't have to have gods to be good.
P

A point aptly made by Paul in Romans 2:14: "For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves."

BTW, pauli; are you a Phantom fan?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

shiyacic aleksandar wrote:
Society-God=Brutes,Hell

Society + the various gods = sheep screwing up society.

It is as if you say the same thing about politics or economy...
Can really men and their societies live without Religion,Economy or Politics?
It is like Heart,Mind, and Soul,nobody can live without it.
It is the eternal trinity. :wink:
Even the biggest atheist is a theist in fact...
At least this one loves only himself,there is a germ of love in him...
And love is God. Very Happy

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shiyacic aleksandar wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
shiyacic aleksandar wrote:
Society-God=Brutes,Hell

Society + the various gods = sheep screwing up society.

It is as if you say the same thing about politics or economy...
Can really men and their societies live without Religion,Economy or Politics?
It is like Heart,Mind, and Soul,nobody can live without it.
It is the eternal trinity. :wink:
Even the biggest atheist is a theist in fact...
At least this one loves only himself,there is a germ of love in him...
And love is God.

Most of the gods have already been shown to be fiction...gods invented by humans to fill needs they have.

MY GUESS: Your god is not love...your god is also a god invented by humans to fill needs they have.

In any case...mostly we are talking about the god of the Bible here....and most assuredly that god is not love. In fact, a strong case can be made that the exact opposite is true.

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He might "love" himself, but he certainly doesn't "believe" in himself....

OOoooooh! I slay me!!!!!

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Snood,

I am so glad you are here. Last night I was reading posts by Frank in almost every forum I could find his name in. I did it because I thought maybe, just maybe I was taking Frank wrong. He kept telling me he was moral, kind, and decent. And, he obviously has friends here at A2K so, I thought maybe I was just taking it too personally. So, I decided to read everything I could find and then form an opinion.

Well, to make a long story shorter, I came across an exchange with you and Frank where he was insulting your posts and then had the unmitigated gall to be patronizingly to throw in there oh yeah, by the way, thanks for what you guys (troops) are doing for us.

Snood, I could have gone ballistic! How dare he! How dare he insult you when you (could very well have) sacrificed your life just so that he can keep the right to his free speech. I apologize that there are any Americans that misuse the freedoms you and our brave soldiers fight so selflessly for.

As you can tell, supporting our troops is very important to me. So, let me convey to you from me and all my friends at the Care Angels Network, God Bless You! Thank you is never going to be enough.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Snood,

I am so glad you are here. Last night I was reading posts by Frank in almost every forum I could find his name in. I did it because I thought maybe, just maybe I was taking Frank wrong. He kept telling me he was moral, kind, and decent. And, he obviously has friends here at A2K so, I thought maybe I was just taking it too personally. So, I decided to read everything I could find and then form an opinion.

Well, to make a long story shorter, I came across an exchange with you and Frank where he was insulting your posts and then had the unmitigated gall to be patronizingly to throw in there oh yeah, by the way, thanks for what you guys (troops) are doing for us.

Snood, I could have gone ballistic! How dare he! How dare he insult you when you (could very well have) sacrificed your life just so that he can keep the right to his free speech. I apologize that there are any Americans that misuse the freedoms you and our brave soldiers fight so selflessly for.

As you can tell, supporting our troops is very important to me. So, let me convey to you from me and all my friends at the Care Angels Network, God Bless You! Thank you is never going to be enough.

Care to post the link, Momma? Folks should get to know Frank better. :wink:

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I don't have it right this second Neo, but you bet! I will find it. I am looking for it right now. Be back with the stash!

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Neo,

I found it! The link is where Snood first places a post in the thread. It appears at first Frank just may be trying to say something nice, but as you read on you will see he is not.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9050&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10

I am just so embarrassed that anyone would treat one of our soldiers in this manner. Not agreeing with one is fine, but insulting them is not. And in this case, I find it extremely offensive since Snood was fighting for our rights. I don't think he fought for our right to abuse those rights!

And yes, Momma Angel is hot!

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Momma, what in the blazes did you think you saw?

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Mesquite,

Look, it does not matter to me whether or not you agree with me or how I took what Frank stated.

But, I found telling Snood that he (i.e.,) offered nothing to the discussion by his posts was insulting.

I find a lot of things Frank says insulting. What is really insulting is he denies he insults anyone!

I went and read all those posts in all the threads I could find him in. He has the capability of being polite, generous, encouraging, and even sometimes helpful. But be honest, Mesquite. You know he refuses to use those traits when exchanging with those that dare to presume there is a God.

I tried and I tried and I tried to reach common ground with him. I asked nicely, I pleaded with him. And all I got was him calling me a crybaby. Well, you know what? In another post I found Frank bemoaning the fact that he was being insulted. Can't you see it? Can't you see he has one set of standards for those that disagree with him and one set for those that agree with him?

I have been constantly told to open my eyes. Well, in order to open my eyes I had to see all of Frank that I could see; thus the time spent researching his posts. And I didn't just read what Frank posted, I read all the posts in those threads. Over and over again Frank is being told he is being offensive and abusive. He ignores it! As a matter of fact, I think he revels in it!

I believe snood was right-on when he called him ...an arrogant..... Go back and read some of his stuff Mesquite. Do it with an open mind. Read where he is asked questions but refuses to answer and yet when someone doesn't want to answer his question or can't answer his question or won't change their thinking to his way, he accuses them of weaseling out and running with their tail between their legs. I feel very justified in calling Frank hypocritical (as he has called others) just on the basis of his words alone.

He seeks the truth? One cannot find the truth in others until they can objectively find the truth in themselves.

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Momma unfortunately believes one thing -- that she can read between the lines. I think she needs some therepy.

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Lightwizard,

And just why do you think I need some therapy? Perhaps because I do not agree with you?

And if I said to you, I think you need to learn how to spell? Or at least use your spellcheck?

This effects me how?

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Momma angel,

when you posted this...

Quote:

I found it! The link is where Snood first places a post in the thread. It appears at first Frank just may be trying to say something nice, but as you read on you will see he is not.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9050&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10

I am just so embarrassed that anyone would treat one of our soldiers in this manner. Not agreeing with one is fine, but insulting them is not. And in this case, I find it extremely offensive since Snood was fighting for our rights. I don't think he fought for our right to abuse those rights!

It gave me the impression that Frank had insulted Snood for being a soldier, when the exact opposite is the case.

In that exchange ..

Frank said Snood had lately been entering threads only with quips that offered nothing to the discussion.

Snood admitted so.

Snood made racist comments.

The last exchange between the two was this

Frank Apisa wrote:

Snood

If the charge is "arrogant" -- I plead guilty and throw myself on the mercy of the court.

I liked your last post. You said what you had to say -- and you did it, in my opinion, politely, respectfully and reasonably -- or at least, as politely, respectfully and reasonably as our present little tiff allows.

I enjoyed reading what you had to say -- and I don't have much else to add from my side. If anything comes up, I'll post.

But right now, fireworks beckon. And I never pass up a chance for fireworks.

Berkeley Heights, New Jersey on July 16th -- same date every year. The five day "Our Lady of Mt. Carmel" festival ends tonight at 11:15 pm (yeah, it is late) -- and it ends with a fireworks display of major league proportions. I'd stack it up against any other small town display -- and against some larger cities displays.

World class fireworks manufacture and displayer, Santora (Santori) Brothers are from the town -- and they do it up big time for the place.

So off I go into the dark, dark blue yonder.

Ahhh...while it is on my mind, I want to reiterate something.

Thanks for standing guard. Not just you, Snood -- but all (as we say in my home state) youse -- all the men and women standing guard.

That is no small favor you are doing us.

Hardly anything to go ballistic about.

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Mesquite...LightWizard...I thank you for the help you are giving.

This is now farce being played out. I am actually enjoying it...it is so broad. I hope you good folks are also.

But once again...thanks for being here.

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You misunderstand. I did not say that Frank was insulting Snood as a soldier.

I said he insulted Snood's posts! And if you will read Snood's posts more closely, you will see his reasoning for using that "appearing to be racist remark." Did he need to do it, probably not. Race should never be an issue.

I merely pointed out how it sounded patronizing to me when he thanked Snood and the other troops.

And, if you will read Snood's last post, uhhh....sure Frank. I think I interpreted his perception of the remark the same way I did.

Look, we can all go round and round and round and we can gather up supporters from each side to support our positions. That old, my dad can beat up your dad line. Real productive, isn't it?

A few of you have been railing against Christians for one reason or another. Some of us have tried (unsuccessfully) to request, plead, beg for some courtesy and have been spurned at every request. But, the second we say we aren't taking it anymore, then you find reason to belittle that also. What the heck do you want? You get what you want and then you argue against it? Now, that's circular hypocrisy to me.

This is the exact point I am trying to make in the Are You Part of the Problem or Part of the Solution forum. This is how wars start! This is how hate is propogated. Why continually focus on the negative? If you can find the problems you can find the solutions.

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MA...you tell me that I should not give opinions about your god.

But you give opinions about your god all the time.

You want all that "god is good, god loves you" crap to stay...and all the stuff that I have to say...you want out.

That is a joke!

If you read the remarks you now call "patronizing" and do not see that they were anything but patronizing...you are a jerkhoff. The remarks were sincere...they were well delivered...and you have one hell of a lot of nerve to characterize then the way you are doing.

But then again...you want to take a god who is jealous, vindictive, vengeful, petty, tyrannical, quick-to-anger slow-to-forgive, murderous, and barbaric...and pretend the god is loving, kind, and compassionate.

You do not know how to read with comprehension, MA.

The group of you constantly rail against some of the "names" I've called you....but the group has pretty much designated me (and other kindred folk) as either murderers, abetters of murder, or advocates of murder....

...and have done so quite explicitly.

I don't sit around being a cry baby about you calling me...or the others...those kinds of names.

(hummm perhaps that is why you are so interested in ending the "fetus is a fetus" thing...so you can get away with calling it a child and accuse the rest of us of abetting or advocating murder by being pro-choice.)

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Frank Apisa Wrote:

Quote:

MA...you tell me that I should not give my opinions about your god.

No, that is not what I said. I said if you would just state that it is your opinion, in my opinion, etc., I would not have a problem with that. Those can come into the middle of these threads and do not read them from beginning to end might possibly perceive you (as I have) to be stating in essence that they are wrong and you are right. It's not what you say that offends me, it is the way you state it.

Quote:

You want all that "god is good, god loves you crap" to stay...and the stuff that I have to say...you want out."

No, this is not what I want. What I want is a civil exchange of beliefs, ideas, etc. No person can make an informed decision about anything unless they have as many differing views as possible. But, can't you see that you call my stuff crap and you call yours stuff?

Frank Apisa Wrote:

Quote:

That is a joke!

Glad to make you smile, but it was not intended as a joke.

Quote:

If you read the remarks you now call "patronizing" and do not see that they were anything but patronizing...you are a jerkhoff. The remarks were sincere...they were well delivered...and ou have one hell of a lot of nerve to characterize them the way you are doing.

Well, then let me rephrase that. They appeared to me to be patronizing and the response you received from Snood led me to believe he also thought they were patronizing. This is what I am talking about Frank. It's your delivery of your opinions that lead to some of the misperceptions. If you meant it sincerely, then thank you. Our troops need and deserve every bit of thanks and respect we can give them. If I misunderstood or misperceived your intentions here, I sincerely apologize.

Frank Apisa Wrote:

Quote:

But then again...you want to take a god who is jealous, vindictive, vengeful, petty, tyrannical, quick-to-anger, slow -to-forgive, murderous, and barbaric...and pretend the god is loving, kind, and compassionate.

Frank, you have consistently called me names, belittled my beliefs, my views, etc. You appear to me to be mean spirited, bitter, and vengeful. You tell me that you are kind, moral, decent, and loyal. Frank, doesn't that just mean there may be more than one set of traits you have? Don't you think that God may have (I know, that is if there is a God) different traits also? Yes, God did have many killed in His name. Yes, God is quick to anger, He tells us that Himself in the Bible. I don't agree with the slow to forgive though. Now, there is also the side of God that is loving, kind and compassionate. Just as there is a side of all of us that can demonstrate good traits on one hand and bad traits on the other. I see God as "overall" good and loving. You appear to see God as "overall" the opposite. That's fine, Frank. You can think that. You have every right and I wouldn't say you don't.

Frank, let me put it this way. What if someone called your wife a moron? An idiot? A joke? A scumbag? You love your wife, right? Would you not stand up for her. Would you not be offended by someone doing that? Your wife is important to you (I assume) and God is important to me. What is wrong with asking you to not call him idiotic or a scumbag?

Frank Apisa Wrote:

Quote:

You do not know how to read with comprehension, MA.

You are making a judgement. I may not read with your level of comprehension but I read with comprehension. I just don't agree with everything you say.

Frank Apisa Wrote:

Quote:

The group of you constantly rail against some of the "names" I've called you...(admitting it are we? )...but the group has pretty much designated me (and other kindred folk) as either murderers, abetters of murder, or advocates of murder...

...and have done so quite explicitly.

I cannot speak for others Frank. I can only speak for myself. I do not believe in abortion. I equate abortion with murder. However, I do not feel that just because you feel the opposite that you are a murderer, an abetter of murder, or advocate of murder... And I fully support your right to be annoyed (or whatever) by anyone doing so. I can believe abortion is murder and not condemn someone else for them not believing it is.

Frank Apisa Wrote:

Quote:

I don't sit around being a cry baby about you calling me...or the others...those kind of names."

Well, that's a good thing I suppose. But, we are not all the same Frank. I just feel that when there are two extremes, you can both come to an amicable compromise. Now, the only compromise I ask of you is to state or just put (IMO) when stating what you think or feel God is. Calling me a moron, insane, a joke, is not necessary Frank. You are an extremely intelligent man, and I have found in other threads you can be quite engaging, funny, light-hearted and kind. I just do not understand why you can't be that way with those that believe in God. I don't think it's too much to ask Frank. Is it? A little courtesy?

Frank Apisa Wrote:

Quote:

hummm perhaps that is why you are so interested in ending the "fetus is a fetus" thing...so you can get away with calling it a child and accuse the rest of us of abetting or advocating murder by being pro-choice."

No, no, no. I am interested in ending it because we are at a stalemate with this. I believe on way, you believe another. Agree to disagree? I have not, and will not accuse you or anyone else of abetting or advocating murder by being pro-choice. I am not one of those Christians or anti-abortionists that believe you should use the "bombing" method to make your point. If I don't like the law then I have the right to lobby to change the law. I do not have the right to condemn nor punish those that do not agree with me. I am 100% behind putting anyone that would bomb an abortion clinic, kill a doctor who performs abortions, etc. in jail. They are turning around and doing just what they accuse of pro-abortionists of doing. You don't break the law to change or amend the law. Now, abortion is legal. I voted against it. The majority didn't. So, it's a law. God says to follow man's laws. Ok, doesn't mean I have to get an abortion, but it does mean that I can't take that right or condemn anyone else for making that choice.

Now, I hope I have made myself a bit clearer. Frank, you have many valid points in your posts. You raise some very thought provoking questions. So, can we come to an amicable compromise here?

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We will see where things head, MA.

I will say what I think has to be said.

Let's see if you can get away from discussing me...and trying to make me operate the way you do...and get back to discussing specifics.

Anything in particular...other than me and the way I express myself...that you would like to discuss?

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I mean this purely as a joke, Frank. If I look in the dictionary under exasperating, and I going to find that it merely says Frank?

Ok, I am going to take this post as a fresh start. Frank, I do find you quite intriguing. I guess it's just hard for me to grasp the idea that you say you don't believe in anything (if that is stated wrong, I apologize).

I can't help but think that if you did believe in something, whatever it was you would be the most effective supporter of that belief. I admire your tenacity.

Ok, off of you and me. I would like to ask you a question. Is it the law that you so steadfastly support or is it your (I don't know what word to use here. I know if I say belief that isn't correct. So, can you put the word here for me?) that the law is right? If, the law were just the opposite, would you be so steadfast for it or against it?

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Momma Angel wrote:

I mean this purely as a joke, Frank. If I look in the dictionary under exasperating, and I going to find that it merely says Frank?

You certainly are not the only one to feel that way, MA. There are times where I exasperate myself. But I am tenacious as a bulldog.

Quote:

Ok, I am going to take this post as a fresh start. Frank, I do find you quite intriguing. I guess it's just hard for me to grasp the idea that you say you don't believe in anything (if that is stated wrong, I apologize).

Let me explain this more...and really...try to grasp this. If you do...it will all clear up in a flash.

As far as I am concerned...when a person say (I'll just use a single example) "I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God!"...I take that to mean...."It is my guess, estimate, opinion, philosophical position (whatever) that the Bible was inspired by a God."

As far as I am concerned...the person making that particular statment (as first said)...is disguising the fact that he/she is making a guess, estimate, giving an opinion, or expressing a philosophical position.

I NEVER disguise the things about which I make a guess, estimate...or about which I express an opinion or a philosophical position. (This does not mean that I never forget to include wording such as "I guess..." I opine..." or the like!)

So...as far as I am concerned...ALL BELIEFS are comments made which include the words "I believe..." Without those words...it is not a belief. And if it is a belief....it is a guess (or estimate)...and the person expressing it is, consciously or unconsciously, attempting to disguise the fact that it is a guess (or estimate.)

All beliefs are guesses (or estimates)...but not all guesses (or estimates) are beliefs. In order for them to be beliefs....they have to be stated as a belief.

I certainly have an opinion (I can make a guess) about whether or not the Bible is "God" inspired.

MY GUESS...is that it is the work of humans who needed a god to say certain things...and they simply invented a god...and had the god say the things they wanted the god to say.

They didn't care that thousand of years in the future there would be a sect of people called Christians who would contort logic and distort meaning in order to pretend that the god did not say...or mean...all the things they had the god saying AND MEANING.

So...my opinion about the Bible...my guess about the Bible...is simply not a belief. I clearly label it as a guess...and opinion.

I would love to see everyone else be more specific...and not use that word "believe"...if only because the word means so many different things to different people.

I hope that explains my postion regarding "belief."

Read it over a couple of times if you don't get it. It will become crystal clear if you give it a chance.

Quote:

Ok, off of you and me. I would like to ask you a question. Is it the law that you so steadfastly support or is it your (I don't know what word to use here. I know if I say belief that isn't correct. So, can you put the word here for me?) that the law is right? If, the law were just the opposite, would you be so steadfast for it or against it?

It is not the law that causes me to take the stance I am taking. I am of the opinion that a woman should have a right to decide what is right for her body...even if it could be proved to me that the fetus is a living human being....and would be destroyed if she exercises (what I consider) her right to abort.

If the law were to change...I would do everything in my power to get it changed back....to keep abortion legal.

I absolutely fear the kinds of justices George Bush is going to nominate for the Supreme Court for exactly that reason. I do not want to see the law intruding inself into decisions a woman should be able to make for herself...just because something is being destroyed....EVEN IF IT IS A HUMAN BEING in production.

I am not of the "life is sacred" school.

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If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

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