If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

That has always been one of my problems with heaven. Besides, you have to die in order to get there. BUMMER!

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God doesn't need to know the end of anything? So we have a god that is a control freak in the Old Testament who suddenly seems to have butted out on dealing out his wrath -- he's left that to governments, military forces and criminals. Almost like he gave up on trying to pressure us into the desired mold, descending that free will is essential to any kind of happiness on Earth. Good call, there. However, it does seem to be concerned about growing world population with "acts of god" like the recent tsunami. It likely wiped out a few bad people but, by and large, a huge number of innocents were put to death.

Then he speaks to our President and apparantly orders him to invade a sovereign country because there's a bad man leading it. Perhaps he even suggested other reasons to cover-up the real agenda?

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Who does the bible identify as the god of this world? Identify that and you will see the answer to many of the questions you just raised.

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The Ray Bradbury story in "The Martian Chronicles", containing a collection of short stories about the colonization of Mars, is entitled "Mars Is Heaven." Read that if you want to try to understand the illusion of heaven.

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neologist wrote:

Who does the bible identify as the god of this world? Identify that and you will see the answer to many of the questions you just raised.

A poorly written sentence, neo -- it implies that you understand who the god in the Bible is, perhaps even better than the Pope. I wouldn't be so presumtious as to be able to "identify" god. Reads like something Perry Mason might handle well.

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Lightwizard wrote:

neologist wrote:
Who does the bible identify as the god of this world? Identify that and you will see the answer to many of the questions you just raised.

A poorly written sentence, neo -- it implies that you understand who the god in the Bible is, perhaps even better than the Pope. I wouldn't be so presumtious as to be able to "identify" god. Reads like something Perry Mason might handle well.

Sorry. I didn't mean to cause confusion. I hadn't run that one past Joe Sixpack first. Laughing

And I only know what is readily available to anyone. Here are a few references to the god/ruler of this world:

John 12:31:
"Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out."
John 14:30:
"I shall not speak much with YOU anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me. . ."
John 16:11:
". . . because the ruler of this world has been judged. . ."
2 Corinthians 4:4:
". . . among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through."

Many might wonder how and why Almighty God could give control of this world over to Satan. What could possibly be gained?

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A fable, my friend -- Aesop also wrote them, actually better written than the thousands of secretaries (scribes) who put down the word of God, Although most of the Bible is from spoken legend and mythology. There isn't even any empirical evidence that Christ existed -- there were literally hundreds of "saviours" during the time and more than just a few crucifixions. Asking why to passages like this is asking why the good characters in "The Lord of the Rings" go off to the Grey Havens in the end (a book, incidentally, that was written by an author who was responsible for a rewriting and editing of the King James version of the Bible). Actually, that is likely much easier to answer than the vagueness in the Bible -- akin to horoscopes.

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I have heard others say before that they felt the Bible was written by men to explain things. I have heard others say that it is just a work of fiction.

I guess my questions are these: If men did write it to explain things, why didn't they explain it better, easier to understand, more "logical"?

If it is just a work of fiction, then why is it such a controversial book? Most books of fiction are just accepted as that and left at that.

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I do not believe the entire Bible is a work of fiction even if one want's to make reference to parts of it as fiction or fantasy, especially long passages in the Old Testament.

No, fictional book are always controversial if they are good books. Look at the furor over "The Da Vinci Code."

The Bible has its own form of logic, but it's tied to mystical and metaphysical concepts that muddy the water.

Again, Fran Leibowitz nailed it: People are afraid of randomness and religion is a way to explain randomness.

The real controversy of the Bible is initiated by other religions who have their own tomes to follow.

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Thank you, Lightwizard,

I appreciately you explaining that. I now understand a bit more for your reasons for the way you believe.

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I'm grateful that you see my viewpoint and I apologize for the zingers -- they were meant as humorous jibbing as, like kickycan, I get a bit riled up over being accused of having no hope or faith. I have hope and faith that providence will turn out positive and fully realized that isn't always possible. I see the glass half full, not half empty. I have my moments of sadness but I know how to bring my mood back up...

chocolate! Very Happy

I do respect your devotion to Christianity just as much as I respect Jews for their belief, Muslims for their believe, et al. There are hundreds of name for "God," and the problems in the world would be greatly reduced if there was tolerance for different beliefs, including not believe in a higher power that must take any kind of human form. The Egyptians, the Greeks and the Romans were responsible for popularizing the notion of Gods and reorganizing the concept to only include one God but giving him a staff (and I don't mean like the one Moses, aka Charlatan Heston, carried)

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Lightwizard,

Thank you so much for this post. This is the kind of discussion I want to have. Believe me, I totally understand how you would be riled when someone says you have no hope nor faith. I deeply apologize for that. I can, in no way, make that judgement for you. That, in itself, was a very broad and judgemental statement. Just because you do not share my hope and my faith does not mean you have none.

I know very little about the Muslim and other religions. I readily admit that. One of the reasons for some of my questions was trying to gain a bit more information. I should have just asked more straightforward questions.

I am particularly interested in those that say they once "were Christians" but now aren't. This is difficult for me to understand because I am a Christian and can't imagine abandoning my beliefs. But, I want to know the reasons others do. I mostly seem to get the same response about it being shoved down their throats, which boy do I get that! And I am so against that myself.

I love your comment about Moses' staff! I had to laugh. I, too, have problems with some of his staff. I feel that because of some staff members the perception of God has changed drastically. But, I do not see that as God's fault. I see that as that old free will thing getting in there.

From a lot of these posts I have read, so many are so knowledgeable in so many different aspects; history, religion, philosophy, etc. There is so much for me to learn! I feel like a sponge and I want to soak up as much as I can!

Kisses,

Momma Angel

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I know you may not have meant to come onto the forum with a Christian chip-on-your-shoulder. Thanks for the apology in return.

Well, I've heard rumors about Charlton's staff (or his gun, if you will) but he's probably exaggerating.

There was a series on PBS about several Christian schools teaching evolution and how it does meld with their faith more than fundamentalist want to admit. The argument at the Scopes trial that the Bible's "first day" in Genesis could have been billions of years -- after all, at that point there was no sun revolving around the Earth. Ooopss, sorry, a relapse into the Catholic's antiquated beliefs before Galileo rubbed their nose in the truth.

There are more scientific truths to be realized by those of religious faith and it should not in any way shake their faith.

To summarily declare that scientists are just speculating and dismess evolution and cosmology as junk science is a disturbing form of denial. It's just as bad as an alcoholic not willing to admit he's got a problem with booze. Deep down inside, I think the Pope even has little doubt about evolution or cosmology.

Just looking at a DVD that I own of the Hubble Telescope's incredible photographs of the Universe is awe inspiring and hope instilling enough for me. I, for one, do not believe the Earth is the center of the Universe. There is pretty concrete evidence that nearby stars have planets revolving around them. Do you suppose they have inhabitants who also believe in Yahweh or the Holy Trinity, for example? I seriously doubt that. I think they've almost certain that if they have advanced to our state of technology and civilization that they've invented their own God.

Again, I don't believe any of us can claim to know or understand what the existance of a super intelligence might be. Especially not the Pope or Jerry Falwell.

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Ewww! Jerry Falwell. Now, there I feel we have a snake amongst us! I do know a bit about that one and I do feel he is one of the "staff" that has taken things into his own hands.

And, I will be the first to admit that no one knows how God created everything. Hey, maybe He caused the world with the Big Bang Theory. I don't know. I know the Bible tells of many things, but it does leave many things out. If it had everything in it, we'd never finish reading it. I don't know enough about the theories of evolution and such. I do not feel I actually need to know how God did create things. I just believe that He did.

God's ways are mysterious. Who can know? I remember when JFK was shot. I was brought up believing Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone shooter. Well, I sure have doubts about that now! And so many things out there we learn new things about everyday.

I do have a basic core of beliefs that I do not veer from. That I won't deny. I am doing my best to keep an open mind and listen and learn. I remember when I was in school and we were going to study evolution. I was totally against it. That was what? Too many years ago to count. But, I think there is nothing wrong with sharing the knowledge and then letting one decide what they believe.

Like I said, who knows how God did it? Now, about the other planets and all? You are way over my head on that one. I have no clue about that. But, I would love to hear your views on the subject.

Kisses,

Momma Angel

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Okay, quit stating "he," as Ellen Degeneres pointed out God is a she and she's black.

You would have to have had Anthropology in a very good secular university to really understand Evolution. That's not shorting the Christian colleges that do teach it and I can give you their names if you wish (I'd have to put in the video of the series to find them but it could be Googled as well with likely success).

Also, God could really be Tinkerbell and she waved her wand causing billions of little pieces of glitter to fly everywhere and create the Universe (makes about as much sense).

There is a small book of Aristotle's teachings which are put in quite easy terms. I could search for it but it shouldn't be hard to find it on Amazon.com.
It's inexpensive and in paperback if it's still in print and you can go through our store to find it, 'cause if you purchase it, it helps to defer the cost of this site for the owner.

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Momma Angel wrote:

I do have a basic core of beliefs that I do not veer from. That I won't deny. I am doing my best to keep an open mind and listen and learn.

Those two statements simply do not jibe with one another...and I suspect they are offered mostly because they sound good rather than because they convey any kind of truth.

If you truly were trying to "keep an open mind" (and trying to be truthful)...you would immediately begin identifying yourself as an agnostic....and drop all this theistic guessing....especially the disguised stuff you call "belief."

AGNOSTIC: I do not know if there is a God....I do not know if there are no gods...I do not have enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a reasonable guess.

Quote:

I remember when I was in school and we were going to study evolution. I was totally against it. That was what? Too many years ago to count. But, I think there is nothing wrong with sharing the knowledge and then letting one decide what they believe.

Like I said, who knows how God did it?

In fact, who knows if there is a God to have done it.

Quote:

Now, about the other planets and all? You are way over my head on that one. I have no clue about that.

Aha...something you don't know for sure....are willing to acknowledge that you do not know...and truly are attempting to "keep an open mind" about.

That is progress, MA. You are making strides.

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Momma Angel wrote:

I am particularly interested in those that say they once "were Christians" but now aren't. This is difficult for me to understand because I am a Christian and can't imagine abandoning my beliefs. But, I want to know the reasons others do. I mostly seem to get the same response about it being shoved down their throats, which boy do I get that! And I am so against that myself.

Momma, it sounds as though you are asking for an introduction to NewSoul. You can find him here in this very same topic with this post.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1314721#1314721

Or his own topic

ISLAM( My New Faith)

or

Islam Q & A

edited to repair first link.

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Ok, just for the sake of arguing here. I use "He" because that's the way He is depicted in the Bible. Actually, I think it is very possible God is above being defined as a specific gender.

I am going to check into the books you referenced. I appreciate you doing that. Perhaps if I do a bit of researching then I can discuss this even a bit better!

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Mesquite,

I will do some checking into those links and get back with you. Thanx!

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
I do have a basic core of beliefs that I do not veer from. That I won't deny. I am doing my best to keep an open mind and listen and learn.

Those two statements simply do not jibe with one another...and I suspect they are offered mostly because they sound good rather than because they convey any kind of truth.

If you truly were trying to "keep an open mind" (and trying to be truthful)...you would immediately begin identifying yourself as an agnostic....and drop all this theistic guessing....especially the disguised stuff you call "belief."

AGNOSTIC: I do not know if there is a God....I do not know if there are no gods...I do not have enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a reasonable guess.

Quote:
I remember when I was in school and we were going to study evolution. I was totally against it. That was what? Too many years ago to count. But, I think there is nothing wrong with sharing the knowledge and then letting one decide what they believe.

Like I said, who knows how God did it?

In fact, who knows if there is a God to have done it.

Quote:
Now, about the other planets and all? You are way over my head on that one. I have no clue about that.

Aha...something you don't know for sure....are willing to acknowledge that you do not know...and truly are attempting to "keep an open mind" about.

That is progress, MA. You are making strides.

I agree totally with this. You can't have "Mind Wide Shut."

Frank and I have had a disagreement long ago about the fact that I am agnostic which I fully admitted. However, my scientific skepticism and education in many sciences, especially astronomy and anthropology, will not let me believe in the God the Christians have concocted. Aristotle many thousands of years ago had it right.

I feel a fear that their faith will be shaken in nearly anyone I've interacted with who refuses to even begin accepting a concept such as Evolution. It's this fear which is closely tied to a fear of the wrath of God. Sorry, but that is unacceptable to me.

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If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

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