If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

Lightwizard wrote:

I have faith that Frank wishes for humanity to try and always show its best side. Believing in a mythological God can do the trick also. Isn't that nice?

Nor have I ever seen the elephants hiding in the trees. (Another elephant joke)

Your statement is correct. But what is disturbing that the most devout religionists and the most altruistic humanists have not put an end to humanity's problems.

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Now, Neo, I like that one!

And since when is it bemoaning to ask someone to be polite, Neo? I am at the ....pearls before swine... spot.

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MA; I keep telling you this is not like preaching to the choir nor should it be. As much as I would like to bop Frank over the head, he has legitimate objections. Concentrate on those and not on his inability to mount a logical argument.

Don't be upset by his insults, either. They are simply manifestations of his outstanding IQ.

If you do this, you will find your ability to explain will improve. And don't forget; there are many who read this forum and are afraid to participate. They read what you and I and Frank and wiz say and make decisions we may never know of.

Keep it up.

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Oh, I won't let them run me off. I've heard worse. I was always taught to respect people. I live in the deep south and there have been instances down here that if a man were to hear someone talk to his wife like that he'd be 'gator bait. Shocked

If I were a child, I could probably just give it right back to him. But, I was taught better. I shudder to think how young teens, etc., probably think it is ok to treat people like that.

I don't care if he doesn't agree. So what. That's him.

I worry about kids nowadays. They shoot up schools because they are treated like this. They are children. They learn from adults. We should be teaching them how to discuss and not argue and ridicule. We should be teaching them to resolve problems and not be part of creating them. Maybe I am just from the old school, but if that's Frank in that picture, well, he's older than me and should definitely know better.

Kisses,

Momma Angel

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neologist wrote:

MA; I keep telling you this is not like preaching to the choir nor should it be. As much as I would like to bop Frank over the head, he has legitimate objections. Concentrate on those and not on his inability to mount a logical argument.

What a laugh!

But...when damn near every argument you've presented has been blown out of the water as totally illogical...I guess the only thing you are left with, Neo...are silly digs like this.

I love man! You are too, too funny.

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We should get together. It would be a hoot!

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neologist wrote:

We should get together. It would be a hoot!

A fairly large group of us (A2Kers) have regular get-togethers in the City....often weekly.

If you wanna join us....you will be welcome.

We do not talk shop....nor do we do any arguing. We just have a good time...and enjoy each other's company. (Oh, we are not above cutting up any A2Ker who is not present.)

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Here is a link to the "Dirty Language" thread I mentioned I would be writing.

Hope you all stop by and read my essay...and comment on the subject matter.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1475120#1475120

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Frank Apisa wrote:

neologist wrote:
We should get together. It would be a hoot!

A fairly large group of us (A2Kers) have regular get-togethers in the City....often weekly.

If you wanna join us....you will be welcome.

We do not talk shop....nor do we do any arguing. We just have a good time...and enjoy each other's company. (Oh, we are not above cutting up any A2Ker who is not present.)

Won't get to NY for about 6 months. I'll remember ya

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Momma, might I suggest you start an "I love Jesus" thread? You can ask that only believers come in and post, and then you won't have to deal with all this arguing from the non-believers, like me, Frank, and LightWizard. Kind of like that "Bush-supporters" thread they have going in the politics forum; you can get all the like-minded people together and have a good ol' time without all this rational discourse and argument getting in the way of your beliefs.

You seem like a nice enough person, and I know you are tough and all, but Frank is knocking the stuffing out of you in the area of rationality, and you don't even seem to realilze it. I am only suggesting this because I don't want to see you sour on this site because of the verbal thrashing you're taking. Of course, you can always tell me to take my advice and go to hell. Since I don't believe in it, it won't hurt my feelings a bit.

Enjoy,

Poppa Kicky

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Poppa Kicky,

You are a very kind man. You are the kind of person that I want to discuss things with. You have asked questions and even though you didn't agree with my answers, you have been a gentleman and I do thank you for that. I get can all the like minded discussions I want. I want discussions where people ask questions so I can learn. I just happen to believe differently than Frank, others, and you. But, that hasn't stopped you from being respectful of others. That's all I asked. And, for that, I greatly thank you. I enjoyed talking with you.

And, I know there are more like you out there. I just haven't found them yet.

Kisses,

Momma Angel

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Thanks Momma. Actually, I don't know why I'm being so respectful. In the past I have been one of the most vicious and nasty attackers of religion on this site. And I mean, REAL nasty. I believe that mass blind faith is one of the most destructive things there is on this earth.

So why the hell aren't I attacking you like an angry, rabid pit bull, like I did in the old days? Am I getting soft? What's WRONG with me?!

Maybe I have just realized that it's futile. Blind faith is here to stay. It's like attacking water for running downhill. People need religious beliefs, I guess, and I can mock them all I want, but it ain't going to change a damned thing.

Or maybe I'm just going through an uncharacteristically mellow, respectful period, and I will soon be back to my old rotten sonofabitch self.

I sure hope it's the second possibility. I'd hate to think that I'm mellowing with age.

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Kicky,

I kind of like you this way. Now see, I have no problem whatsoever with the way you disagree with me. That's fine. That's how the world goes around. We all have our own thing.

I am just saying if we could all be respectful of one another and discuss calmly, then perhaps both sides could listen a little more. We could learn more from each other. I don't like things shoved down my throat or being insulted anymore than anyone else does.

I just don't feel you can have a discussion if one person is attacking verbally and one is trying to make peace. I feel that way in any kind of discussion. With your kids, with your parents, with your friends, etc. No one listens if they are angry or trying to think of nasty remarks.

I don't mind challenges, I don't mind questions, I don't mind you saying, I don't believe that.

Getting soft? Mellowing with age? I don't know. Gaining wisdom? Learning better communication skills? I like those much better.

Kisses,

Momma Angel

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kickycan wrote:

Momma, might I suggest you start an "I love Jesus" thread? You can ask that only believers come in and post, and then you won't have to deal with all this arguing from the non-believers, like me, Frank, and LightWizard. Kind of like that "Bush-supporters" thread they have going in the politics forum; you can get all the like-minded people together and have a good ol' time without all this rational discourse and argument getting in the way of your beliefs.

You seem like a nice enough person, and I know you are tough and all, but Frank is knocking the stuffing out of you in the area of rationality, and you don't even seem to realilze it. I am only suggesting this because I don't want to see you sour on this site because of the verbal thrashing you're taking. Of course, you can always tell me to take my advice and go to hell. Since I don't believe in it, it won't hurt my feelings a bit.

Enjoy,

Poppa Kicky

Let Momma stick around and sharpen her wits. May be she will also learn there is no hell. Funny that Frank believes the bible justifies the teaching of hell while I do not; and at the same time Frank eschews the bible while I do not.

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Neo My Friend,

I am not going anywhere. There is so much out there to learn and so many to learn from. Just like with anything else, I get to choose who to learn from.

Kisses,

Momma Angel

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Eve was framed
Hope you don't mind a newbie jumping in with an opinion....

I don't think that the god thing described in the bible exists. I think the bible is a work of fiction, written by hill tribes to explain things that go bump in the night. ( kinda on the same level of Thor's hammer causing thunder-now we know what causes thunder and Thor no longer exists as a god). Oh, and to justify the slaughter of their enemies and the taking of slaves, and the right to make women property (after all, Eve was to blame for the fall). If there is something out there in the vast cosmos, I think it's like the Martians HG. Wells described in War of the Worlds..."intellects vast and cool and unsympathetic ... ".

Now, about that Adam and Eve thingie....
The tree served a purpose for the writers of the Genesis story. It provided an easy answer to the question of why mankind died aged and died. . To the Genesis writers, it made perfect sense. Man and woman had angered their god, therefore they could not live forever. But, the writers didn't understand the problems they created with this solution. It kinda puts a nasty spin on God's omnipotence.

Did God know Eve would eat the fruit? Of course He did! Are we not told by the bible that God knows all things from the Beginning unto the End? Did He not Know that Eve would share it with Adam? Of course He did. Did He not know that the serpent would tempt Eve? He did, if we are to accept the bible. Therefore, did Eve have any free will in the matter? Could she have acted in a manner other than God had foreseen for her? Of course not! How could she? Who was responsible for putting the principle actors-- Adam, Eve, the serpent and the Tree-- all together in the Garden of Eden? God, of course. The inescapable conclusion? That He put all the pieces on the game board, and enacted His own little drama, resulting in the deliberate, eternal damnation of Humankind.In the words of Ingersoll: could a devil have done worse?

P ( part of this is taken from a essay: The Absurdity of Original Sin and Salvation
by Kenneth Harding, because he writes better than I ever could) the whole thing is here: http://www.losingmyreligion.com/essays/absurdity.html

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neologist wrote:

Let Momma stick around and sharpen her wits. May be she will also learn there is no hell.

How do you know there is no Hell?

Quote:

Funny that Frank believes the bible justifies the teaching of hell...

I do not "believe" the Bible justifies the teaching of hell....and I have never said that I believe the Bible justifies the teaching of hell.

Why do you people make stuff up and argue against the stuff you make up?

Quote:

...while I do not; and at the same time Frank eschews the bible while I do not.

I do not "eschew" the Bible. I have over a dozen different Bibles in my library...and use them often.

Try to start thinking before writing, Neo. It won't hurt...and you will not damage your brain by doing it.

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So you say those get togethers with you are big fun, eh, Frankie?

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Re: Eve was framed

Pauligirl wrote:

Hope you don't mind a newbie jumping in with an opinion....

I don't think that the god thing described in the bible exists. I think the bible is a work of fiction, written by hill tribes to explain things that go bump in the night. ( kinda on the same level of Thor's hammer causing thunder-now we know what causes thunder and Thor no longer exists as a god). Oh, and to justify the slaughter of their enemies and the taking of slaves, and the right to make women property (after all, Eve was to blame for the fall). If there is something out there in the vast cosmos, I think it's like the Martians HG. Wells described in War of the Worlds..."intellects vast and cool and unsympathetic ... ".

Now, about that Adam and Eve thingie....
The tree served a purpose for the writers of the Genesis story. It provided an easy answer to the question of why mankind died aged and died. . To the Genesis writers, it made perfect sense. Man and woman had angered their god, therefore they could not live forever. But, the writers didn't understand the problems they created with this solution. It kinda puts a nasty spin on God's omnipotence.

Did God know Eve would eat the fruit? Of course He did! Are we not told by the bible that God knows all things from the Beginning unto the End? Did He not Know that Eve would share it with Adam? Of course He did. Did He not know that the serpent would tempt Eve? He did, if we are to accept the bible. Therefore, did Eve have any free will in the matter? Could she have acted in a manner other than God had foreseen for her? Of course not! How could she? Who was responsible for putting the principle actors-- Adam, Eve, the serpent and the Tree-- all together in the Garden of Eden? God, of course. The inescapable conclusion? That He put all the pieces on the game board, and enacted His own little drama, resulting in the deliberate, eternal damnation of Humankind.In the words of Ingersoll: could a devil have done worse?

P ( part of this is taken from a essay: The Absurdity of Original Sin and Salvation
by Kenneth Harding, because he writes better than I ever could) the whole thing is here: http://www.losingmyreligion.com/essays/absurdity.html

Welcome to the forum, pauligirl. I'm sure you will find much to entertain you. Laughing

BTW, God doesn't need to know the end of anything any more than you need to read the last chapter of a whodunit.

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Life on Earth is a mixture of a heaven and hell, some of that hell touches us personally. If one dwells on the news around the world, there's a plethora of examples of a hell. I work at Fashion Island perched over the Pacific Ocean with fountains, koi ponds, and beautiful stores, galleries and restaurants. I certainly prefer this over floating up in the clouds in a white sheet with a glowing halo over my head, strumming on a harp. Does everyone stay the same age at the time of death? Does the absurdity of that bother anyone?

Of course, everyone should know if there is a hell after life, the most interesting people will be there -- heaven will be primarily a lot of crushing bores.

Hell crept into my life when my Dad died, but the family reconnoitered and I moved into the townhouse with my Mom (I would not have her end up in a retirement home). She took care of me until I was nearly 20 -- she's almost 90 now so I think I can put in the time. She's so determined to stay healthy that she exercise, works in the garden, et al. She might outlive me! Very Happy

My newphew moved in, a bachelor in this thirties and he's put us through some hellish problems but we're encouraging him to better himself and spend more time on himself than the political geek activities that burn up time over something he has no control over.

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If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

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