If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

I think I finally have it all figured out!

If you would just tell me which words I should use as literal and which words I should not, then perhaps I might understand.

I think your light is flickering.

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You know, I think, that I fully support your belief in a Christian God. However, I do not belive in the concept of a God as prescribed by some human cleric who essentially cannot disguise that he (okay, she, although somene Christians have a problem there) has an agenda. You've already admitted that someone can be good without the aid of any religion. Guess what, we are biologically born with that sense of morals. However. since eveyone is wired differently, we all may be different in our sexuality as well as our personality and character traits.

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I admit that some clerics do not preach the gospel as they are supposed to do as laid down by God. I have not been discussing what those some preach. I have been discussing what is in the Bible. That is why I check out many churches before I pick which one I want to attend. I go to the one that I feel is sticking the closest to the Bible. I have been to churches where I have walked out of the sermon because of what the minister was preaching. I am sure this kind of thing happens within most if not all religions. It's not a matter of who is right here. God is the only one that knows who is right. I try to live by what I believe God has laid out for me to follow. I share what I believe because that is one of the things God would have me do.

I have no problem with you or anyone disagreeing with what I believe. I just have the problems with the name calling and such. It serves no purpose. It helps neither side of the discussion.

We know nothing about each other. I believe there are basic "rules" of debate, if you will, that should be applied by all.

I have asked questions because I didn't know the answers. I didn't understand certain things and wanted to get some insight.

And as far as someone can be good without the aid of any religion. Sure, that's true but, God says by faith are ye saved and not of good works.

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Just exactly what "name" did I call you?

To know is to learn.

Please try to learn, either academically (although you're making me doubt you could make it through any state college) or common sense would do otherwise be condemed to the ignorant.

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I have a problem with your "laid down by God." You mean you interact with everyone by rule of the so-called master? I really hope you live well and are able to be happy with your life -- please don't ask the secret because in the defense of the simple platitudes of the Bible, you are happy and do not need to participate nor subscribe to this forum.

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I didn't say you particularly called me a name. Look, you want to bait someone, bait someone else. I am trying to get answers and learn.

I was trying to get on a more amicable wavelength here. But, with you, that dog won't hunt.

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Momma Angel wrote:

I admit that some clerics do not preach the gospel as they are supposed to do as laid down by God. I have not been discussing what those some preach. I have been discussing what is in the Bible.

Perhaps you have been doing that....but it would be hard for anyone to see that from reading your posts. Because if you were "discussing what is in the Bible"...you would be agreeing with me that the god of the Bible is a jealous, quick-to-anger slow-to-forgive, vengeful, tyrannical, petty, murderous, barbaric god...rather than the loving, forgiving, compassionate god you want to paint this cartoon to be.

My challenge still holds.

You start listing passages where the god is on the scene or giving advice where the god is being loving, forgiving, compassionate....and I will list passages where the god is on the scene or giving advice where the god is being jealous, quick-to-anger slow-to-forgive, vengeful, tyrannical, petty, murderous, or barbaric ...where the god is threatening people, killing them, ordering them to kill others.

We'll see which list is longer.

We'll see if you can furnish even one scenario in which the thrust of the god's actions and advice is what you say it is rather than what I say it is.

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I have told you before, Frank. I am not going to engage in that challenge with you. It wouldn't matter if my list outnumbered yours or not. You have done nothing but continually tell me I am wrong and when I point something out to you it is ignored. So, fine, I forfeit, call it whatever you want.

I am not going to do it and I have told you why. IMO you just won't be happy until I fall down on my knees and worship you as God. Sorry, ain't gonna happen.

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Lightwizard wrote:

You know, neologist, I think you know I'm only playing cat-and-mouse with you and I hope you realize I'm only baiting (I'm probably notorious on this forum for doing this but it won't stop me).

The point is that Momma-what's-her-name claims to have the truth in hand but does not. I don't belive you do either, so be be my guest and sleep off the dreams of an unrealized reality.

BTW, I have no idea how that stupid spellcheck entry came up other than all the years I've beem of this forum, I am actually happy that I pissed off Craven.

So you enjoy baiting, eh? Well, I also like to punch both ways. I go after the believers,also. It's just that Frank is such an easy mark. My day is not complete without a dressing down from the Garden State. Laughing

Lightwizard wrote:

You know, I think, that I fully support your belief in a Christian God. However, I do not belive in the concept of a God as prescribed by some human cleric who essentially cannot disguise that he (okay, she, although somene Christians have a problem there) has an agenda. You've already admitted that someone can be good without the aid of any religion. Guess what, we are biologically born with that sense of morals. However. since eveyone is wired differently, we all may be different in our sexuality as well as our personality and character traits.

Now you profess a belief in God and a disdain for clerics. Interesting. I also have a belief in God and a disdain for clerics. What do you think of this quote from a friend of mine? (He's been dead for a while.)

Denis Diderot wrote:

Mankind will never truly be free until the last king has been strangled with the entrails of the last priest.

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Momma Angel wrote:

I have told you before, Frank. I am not going to engage in that challenge with you. It wouldn't matter if my list outnumbered yours or not. You have done nothing but continually tell me I am wrong and when I point something out to you it is ignored. So, fine, I forfeit, call it whatever you want.

I am not going to do it and I have told you why. IMO you just won't be happy until I fall down on my knees and worship you as God. Sorry, ain't gonna happen.

This makes me wonder. As Frank said, you seem to believe in a loving god despite what is in the bible, yet you say that you believe what's in the bible. Do you really not see the contradiction there? Are there parts of the bible that you don't believe?

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Kickycan,

Although there are parts of the Bible I don't fully understand, I believe the Bible is God-breathed and God-inspired. Now, do I believe there has never been a "typo" made? There probably has. I don't think anything can be handed down through the ages and copied again and again and not have changed somewhat.

But, I believe what the Bible says. Yes. Do I like everything it says? No. But, the things I find I don't like are the things that tell me not to do what I want to do (sins). That's a human reaction. But, as far as the conflict Frank points out, I have no problem resolving that because I believe in a perfect God. I believe in a God so perfect that man cannot look upon God's face and live. He is without sin, without any flaw whatsoever. How can I, a mere mortal being, question Him? HE IS GOD.

Now, if Frank wants to rail at me again and say what he will, then that's fine. He, you, or anyone else does not have to believe what I believe. I just wish I could explain how loving God makes me feel. I could tell you countless times He has intervened in my life and fixed things. To some, they call it coincidence. I do not believe in coincidence. Too many things have happened in my life that have only caused my faith to grow stronger every day.

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Kicky;
If Adam and Eve had not sinned, they would still be here and we would not have war and crime and sickness and death. (If you believe the bible, that is.)

If God had not allowed Adam and Eve to bear children, we would not be here and His purpose for the earth would have been denied. (So much for the all powerful God.)

We could wish we had never been born or we could wish that his promise to set things aright (see Genesis 3:15) would come about sooner rather than later.

But the point is that all of the human misery of the last 6000 or so years is the fault of Satan, not God.
The judgements against individuals, and nations, though harsh, are but a reflection of God's understanding of sin.

All those who died not knowing God have been promised a resurrection (John 5:28,29) where they will be given the opportunity to experience the life Adam and Eve lost.

I don't like the hand we've been dealt, either. But given the alternatives of never having been born or not having free will, I'll play it out.

If you believe the bible, that is.

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I do not have a "belief" in God, I have a scepticism as to the existance of any God which I do believe is a healthy scepticism and if there is a higher intelligence, it is an intelligence we are not capable of understanding any more than we understand infinity. To project that we do understand is human folly.

I have virtually no problem with the New Testament and the teachings of Jesus Christ. I do have exception to his statement about essentially the Old Testament's validity. A political spin at best and anyone who doesn't recognize that Christ was deeply political are in denial.

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Neologist,

You keep saying, if you believe the Bible that is. May I be so bold as to ask, "Do you believe the Bible?"

You seem to and then you throw me a bit.

Lightwizard, I guess I just don't understand why you are so skeptical about things. What I really don't understand is where do you get that Jesus was political? Do you have a specific instance in mind? And isn't that what I have been saying about understanding God? That the human mind is not capable of fully understanding Him

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It wasn't political to overturn the money changer's table in the temple? As much as the Bible tries to characterize him as outside the politics of the day, that simply isn't true.

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He overturned the moneychangers booths in the temple because it was a house of worship and not a den of thieves. It had nothing to do with politics. It had everything to do with sacrilege and defiling the temple.

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Now you are the Pope and can interpret the Bible as we please (or a cleric has successfully brain-washed you). It goes along with the egoism of knowing that the Bible is all truth and based on messages from a bearded man in the sky. Try going to Disneyland and imagining that it's the real Tinkerbell descending from the mountain -- not that's a real accomplisment in terms of belief. Belief is what one wants to be true, not what is necessarily true.

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Lightwizard wrote:

I do not have a "belief" in God, I have a scepticism as to the existance of any God which I do believe is a healthy scepticism and if there is a higher intelligence, it is an intelligence we are not capable of understanding any more than we understand infinity. To project that we do understand is human folly.

I have virtually no problem with the New Testament and the teachings of Jesus Christ. I do have exception to his statement about essentially the Old Testament's validity. A political spin at best and anyone who doesn't recognize that Christ was deeply political are in denial.

Sorry, I misunderstood your answer to momma's post. If Jesus were at all political, he would not have resisted efforts to make him king. The kingdom he preached about was heavenly, not earthly. (For interesting reference, see Daniel 2:44)

Momma Angel wrote:

Neologist,

You keep saying, if you believe the Bible that is. May I be so bold as to ask, "Do you believe the Bible?"

You seem to and then you throw me a bit.

I most certainly am a bible believer. Many a2kers are not; then make claims as to what they think the bible has to say. I enjoy poking their balloons; and the fact that a few believers' balloons get poked along the way is an added bonus. Laughing

Lightwizard wrote:

It wasn't political to overturn the money changer's table in the temple? As much as the Bible tries to characterize him as outside the politics of the day, that simply isn't true.

Well, Jesus did preach about the kingdom; and the relationship between religion and politics can't be denied. In fact, the sanhedrin accused him of treason as well as blasphemy. So, in that respect, I suppose you have a point.

But remember the kingdom Jesus talked about originates in heaven.

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Lightwizard wrote:

Belief is what one wants to be true, not what is necessarily true.

No, that's credulity.

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Y'all are so comical Laughing

I enjoy a good laugh on a Sunday morning. On Monday morning I will, of course, get to reality and realize how ridiculous the statements you ae making have become. You are truly "lost in space."

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If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

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