If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

neologist wrote:

mesquite wrote:
We are involved in a war today. Would you say that Moses' words above should be of moral value to guide our actions today?
No, the law was a tutor leading to Christ. Christ, contrary to Frank's cantankerous objection, fulfilled the law.

How, precisedly, did he "fulfill the law."

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The Hebrews' killing of their enemies, while harsh, was recorded to remind us of God's exacting standards.

What?

We are not talking about a record of the Hebrews killing their enemies. We are speaking of THE ADVICE THE god OF THE BIBLE GIVES TO THE HEBREW PEOPLE.

All that shyt was barbaric. Why do you suppose your god advised people to do such barbaric things?

Quote:

All humans have been sentenced to death by virtue of Adam's sin.

But we have already shown that the supposed "sin" of Adam was nonsense.

Your god refused to let Adam know what was right and wrong...what was good and evil....

...and then punished him for doing something that he (Adam) had no way of knowing was wrong.

The allegory is absurd...laughably absurd.

That an adult would buy into it is pitiful.

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Frank,
Was your hair white before you started to argue logic, and free thought against religous dogma? I allowed myself to get into it with Mama Angel last week, and I'm sure I have a couple more grey hairs.

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booman2 wrote:

Frank,
Was your hair white before you started to argue logic, and free thought against religous dogma? I allowed myself to get into it with Mama Angel last week, and I'm sure I have a couple more grey hairs.

Laughed out loud!

Yeah....I've been gray for many years now...and trying to be logical with religious folk has not caused it to get any more gray.

It does get very frustrating! Twisted Evil

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Momma Angel is a redhead! Believe what you hear about their strength!

Did I read that right about someone keeping score?

Uh, me thinks we need a conscientious objector to go back through the postings and see where "some" have been proven wrong but won't admit it.

(Note to self: Some can take words out of context and use to prove they are right; but, others cannot do it because it proves they are right.)

(Another note to self: No one said the Bible didn't say those things, someone said "ah, but they also say this and you have to put them all together.)

(And last note to self: Funny, no one says a thing about how Momma Angel tried to show that God is the daddy and makes the rules and we are the children and break them.)

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Your strength, huh? The only thing you might pick up is a Catholic priest who is more interested in redheaded women than small boys.

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Momma, while you are taking notes, please note that it was you that referenced 1/2 of a sentence to attempt to prove your point, when the other half disproved your point.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Mesquite,

Let me put it in the simplest of terms possible.

God is the daddy. The daddy makes the rules. The daddy decides the punishment for breaking the rules. The daddy explains the rules to you and what the consequences are of breaking those rules. You break the rules. Your brother steps in and says, I will take the punishment.

I do not know how to put it in any simpler terms than that.

Since you made a special request for a reply to this, here it is.

1. If a daddy used snuffing as a consequence for breaking petty rules, then the daddy can only be described as barbaric.

2. If the daddy directs his kids to be brutal and unmerciful to other kids, then the daddy can only be described as barbaric.

3. Brother stepping in an accepting the punishment does not match our Jesus - Yahweh scenario, since they are according to you, one and the same.

4. If you had said the daddy became schizo and developed multiple personality disorder, that would be a better analogy and would account for the major change between the two.

5. Or you could simply open your eyes and see it for the mythology it is.

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Now God is reduced down to being "the daddy." Perhaps it could be Big Daddy from "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof."

I have news for you -- those who have the gold make the rules.

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Ok, I have a question for you and whoever else out there believes the way you do.

If I or anyone else chooses to believe what I believe and those beliefs make me or anyone else a kind, happy, friendly, non-combative, peaceful, wanting only to do good and not be afraid of death, kind of person, why would you WANT to try to take that away from them?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

But we have already shown that the supposed "sin" of Adam was nonsense.

You have not shown anything, Frank. You have claimed.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Your god refused to let Adam know what was right and wrong...what was good and evil....

Really, Frank, You have a conscience, right? We all have, except sociopaths, I guess. Does your conscience sometimes tell you something would be wrong before you do it? It works that way for many people. And, does your conscience bother you if you do something wrong? It does for many people.

So, if you had a perfect conscience, you would not have to be told it was wrong to steal or cause harm to someone, you would automatically know, right?

Now, I don't know about you Frank, but if my best friend had just offered to let me stay in his home rent free so long as I didn't eat from one of his fruit trees, I would opine the tree must be important to him and would stay clear of it. Adam and Eve were given perfect consciences (If you believe the bible, that is.) They were given only one command, one rule they would be capable of breaking. Not 10 commandments; Not the many pages of Mosaic law; just one command.

And you are telling me it is certain the test was unfair? That's a real stretch, Frank.

Frank Apisa wrote:

...and then punished him for doing something that he (Adam) had no way of knowing was wrong.

Oh, there you go; you did stretch. Adam and Eve were smarter than you or me Frank. They were even smarter than Setanta. You haven't proved anything; you made an assumption unsupported by evidence and used it to justify your conclusion.

Frank Apisa wrote:

The allegory is absurd...laughably absurd.

Argumentum ad lapidem, Frank.

Frank Apisa wrote:

That an adult would buy into it is pitiful.

Argumentum ad hominem! Good job.

Keep up the good work!

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booman2 wrote:

Frank,
Was your hair white before you started to argue logic, and free thought against religous dogma? I allowed myself to get into it with Mama Angel last week, and I'm sure I have a couple more grey hairs.

Frank started to argue logic? Laughing

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Neologist,

I salute you!

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Hey, Momma, careful, that might be construed as worshipping a false idol...

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kickycan wrote:

Hey, Momma, careful, that might be construed as worshipping a false idol...

Just my head is made of stone. So, don't worry. Laughing

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Momma Angel wrote:

Ok, I have a question for you and whoever else out there believes the way you do.

If I or anyone else chooses to believe what I believe and those beliefs make me or anyone else a kind, happy, friendly, non-combative, peaceful, wanting only to do good and not be afraid of death, kind of person, why would you WANT to try to take that away from them?

Momma Angel, No one is knocking on your door. You joined this discussion forum with the provacative title "If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?".

My personal opinion is that when you have your mind trained to accept all sorts of notions without question, you become easy prey for those that are less than scrupulous and gain your votes with hot button issues like abortion, gay marraige, guns.

ebrown_p expressed it well in this post[/u]

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I am very angry at Chistians.

This is not not because they use "faith" to inform their politics or their morality. I have a respect for the Jesus in the Bible and brave people in history who used the Christian faith for good.

I am angry at American Christians because they hold beliefs and policies that directly contradict the teachings of Christ. They use the Bible as a smokescreen for a repressive brand of politics.

What most Americans call "Christianity" today really stem from the Confederate social religion. This is why much of it is based on judgement, nationalism and policies to keep class differences. If you don't believe this, compare your religious positions with that of the KKK.

Most American Christians, while denouncing the KKK agree with them on most all issues. For the record if you oppose the UN, think the US is a Christian nation, oppose gun control because guns are a good way to stop crime, think homosexuals shouldn't have rights even in a democratic society, support capital punishment and are against any rights for undocmented immigrants I am talking about you.

Jesus cared about the poor, blessed peacemakers, taught forgiveness and compassion, stopped capital punishment and turned the other cheek.

The people running the joke called Christianity today accuse the poor of being welfare leeches, call for harsh sentences and imprisonment, champion capital punishment.

I think you can be a true Christian in a free democracy living under and respecting the Constition.

But I will say this very plainly-- Nationalism and Christianity don't mix. Jesus was very clear about that his Kingdom was in heaven. The current ideaology that most Americans call Christianity is a nationalistic call to a return to Confederate America... nothing less.

It angers me that people use the name "Christianity" to advance this regressive political agenda.

Read my sig line to see the result.

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Against abortion, against gay marriage, I own a .357 magnum and know how to use it, and not running for any office so I don't need votes.

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Whizzzzz.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Ok, I have a question for you and whoever else out there believes the way you do.

If I or anyone else chooses to believe what I believe and those beliefs make me or anyone else a kind, happy, friendly, non-combative, peaceful, wanting only to do good and not be afraid of death, kind of person, why would you WANT to try to take that away from them?

You are in a discussion forum, MA.

We discuss things.

Who cares how you blindly guess about the Ultimate REALITY?

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If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

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