If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

Go Neo!

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neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Here is page one of three pages reflecting comments in the Bible about Hell.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/h/1121960894-8709.html

While some may require a stretch...several of them certainly provide some biblical basis for the "belief" in Hell.

To suggest, as Neo has, that there is NO biblical basis for the "belief"....is so silly, it really merits no response.

But I enjoy this kind of thing....so I'm gonna do so anyway.
So, I'm supposed to believe the very ones who have a vested interest in maintaining the fear you so pompously attribute to me?
All you have done is repeat what they say.

All I have done is identify a few places where the bible shows them to be wrong. Once again, you are so determined to be right, you will use the arguments of those you know to be liars.

You are the one asserting you can PROVE that there is no biblical basis for Hell.

It is a stupid assertion on your part....and you have failed miserably.

In the meantime, I have given you three pages of material FROM THE BIBLE....

...that can be used as biblical basis for the notion of Hell.

Do you people ever think????

Must you be blindly obedient ALL THE TIME?

Egad....we here at A2K have been fortunate enough over the years to have theists who at least could present logical....if unpersuasive....arguments. You folks honestly cannot even come close to that.

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Oh well....going to the city to party.

We'll save this for tomorrow.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Oh well....going to the city to party.

We'll save this for tomorrow.

See ya later Frank. Have a drink on me. Laughing

http://www.gono.com/museum2003/museum%20collect%20info/pluto%20water/p12.jpg

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Frank Wrote:

Quote:

You are the one asserting you can PROVE there is no biblical basis for Hell. It is a stupid assertion on your part...and you have failed miserably. In the meantime, I have given you three pages of material FROM THE BIBLE.....that can be used as biblical basis for the notion of Hell. Do you people ever think?

Well, being one of "you people", yes, Frank, I think. I think you don't know where you stand on anything. On one hand you say it's red when it's blue and white with polka dots and then you say it's blue and white with polka dots when it is red!" But, that is, of course, my obtuse opinion of the situation.

Have a great time at the party!

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Neo, I am in awe! You are my mentor!

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Momma Angel wrote:

Neo, I am in awe! You are my mentor!

Don't put too much faith in the words of other people. The Truth comes from the bible. It comes from God, (2Timothy 3:16) whereas I am but an ignorant yokel from NEW JERSEY!

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Fear not My Mentor, I am in awe of thy articulateness! It is not always thy words I awe from ( Laughing

), it is thy way of sending them forth from thy mouth! Laughing

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So Momma, are you now agreeing that there is no biblical basis for hell?

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Oh no, Mesquite! As a matter of fact, this is an issue I have already posted scripture where the Bible does support the concept of hell.

I was just saying that I love the way Neologist phrases things. I don't necessarily believe everything Neologist believes, but I do believe in the basics that I believe you have to have to go to heaven.

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Oh, now I see. You have switched to Frank's side. You are a hard one to keep up with.

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LMBO! Mesquite, you are very funny!

No, I have not switched to Frank's side! Laughing

I am still standing up for Jesus and the Gospel.

One must remember that even the Christian faith has many denominations, and the reason for those denominations is the different interpretation of some of the Bible, man's ideas, rituals, etc.

This is just to name a few of the differences encountered:

Some do not believe in a literal hell.
Some do not believe you need to be baptized.
Some do not believe in abortion, for any reason whatsoever.

That's just a few. But, the Christian faith is built on a solid foundation of the very verse that I use as my signature in theses posts.

The Christian faith believes that God loved us so much that in order for us to not suffer eternal death, He sent His son to die on the cross for our sins; He was raised from the dead three days later and ascended to Heaven to be with His father until His Second Coming and all those that accept that Jesus died on the cross for our salvation, repent of their sins, and do their best to follow Christ's teachings will be with the Lord eternally.

Now, where we will spend that eternity (i.e., earth, heaven, new planet, etc.) is also something you will find differing in the many denominations of Christianity.

Though you may see me disagree with Real Life/Neologist occassionally on a particular point, you will never see me disagree with the the very core of the Christian faith, as I stated above.

I am just in awe of the talents God gives to people. I do not have the talent of articulate speech and I appreciate someone that does, and was attempting to inject just a wee bit of levity! Laughing

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Momma Angel, it is interesting that you consider a lack Hell a small point.

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Mesquite,

There is just no stopping with you, is there? Consistently pointing out something you perceive as a flaw or contradiction in my beliefs? Hey, have at it. I don't know it all. I am still learning. And, if you will notice, I have said time and time again I wish I were more articulate.

I, myself, do not consider the thought, belief, etc., that the lack of hell is a small point. I was merely pointing out, that the most important point is the Life, Resurrection, and Second Coming of Christ to be the most important and most common belief among the Christian faith.

Anything else you see in there, anywhere, I might have confused you on? I'd be happy to explain further if there is. And if I can't, I will ask my mentors Real Life, Neologist, and Diagknowz, to articulate it for me, because I am not alone! Laughing

It's all a learning experience and sometimes you learn how NOT to behave!

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mesquite wrote:

Momma Angel, it is interesting that you consider a lack Hell a small point.

Gigantic! It reminds me of a famous quote:

Martin Luther wrote:

If by any effort I could conceive how God, Who shows so much anger and iniquity, could be merciful and just, there would be no need of faith.

You already know what I think of the religious elite. Imagine what I think of Martin. Twisted Evil

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Neologist,

I had to read and reread what Martin Luther said and what your reply was.

I am so glad I do it until I understand. I thought you meant Martin Luther King! My bad! Very bad!

Laughing

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Momma Angel wrote:

Mesquite, to you the scriptures did not back it up. To me they did. Let's call it a draw.

To be honest with you, it was one of those questions that I get how the conflict is resolved, but I just can't seem to find the right words to make it make sense for someone else. Do you see what I am trying to say? I researched that answer. I read it quite a few times and I looked up the scriptures provided. To me, it makes perfect sense. But, I have a different opinion than either you or Frank do. Rats! I just don't know how to make that make sense. I have to apologize for that. The last thing I want to do is confuse anyone (especially me )

The reason that you are having trouble resolving the conflict is because the God of the Old Testament and Jesus as depicted in the Bible are as different as night and day.

The God of the Old testament is a vengeful barbaric wargod that appears to get pleasure from human suffering. In your feeble attempt to show him as merciful, you had to reference a verse that was only one half of a sentence. Completing the sentence to get the full carrot and stick context revealed the true nature as I pointed out to you in this post

In the New Testament Jesus you have the loving, forgiving God that you are so fond of. The picture painted of him rather shaky and vague in many places. We see him born in humble surroundings on a trip that was not necessary. His mother was a virgin, but her husband was OK with it. Fast forward thirty years and he finally starts talking about his real daddy up high. He works some miracles, gathers a following, and gets the Hebrew priests all in a tizzy. They arrange to have him executed in a most horrible fashion.

Then we get to your signature line with the biggest whopper of them all. We are told that the execution was really the OT God's plan. That he loves us so much that he decided ease up on getting offended so easily. No more stoning to death for picking up sticks on the sabbath. No, no, he just sacrificed his son (to who or what I am unclear on) and he promises that as long as you believe this whopper you will live forever. And as if all of that was not wild enough, we are told that God and Jesus are are one in the same and they throw in the holy ghost to boot.

Momma Angel wrote:

All I can tell you is that I believe God is a loving, forgiving, all powerful God. Perhaps Neologist can explain to you and Frank the conflict of the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament.

Neo will only deal with it in sweeping generalities. He knows better than to get into specifics. There are just far too many unambiguous examples.

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Mesquite,

Let me put it in the simplest of terms possible.

God is the daddy. The daddy makes the rules. The daddy decides the punishment for breaking the rules. The daddy explains the rules to you and what the consequences are of breaking those rules. You break the rules. Your brother steps in and says, I will take the punishment.

I do not know how to put it in any simpler terms than that.

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A "sin" is anything that offends a god.

The god of the Bible chooses to be offended by damn near everything humans do.

Of course, since it is the god....it can, if it chooses....not to be offended by so goddam many things....

...or it can continue to be offended by damn near everything...and simply forgive humans for these things.

The god of the Bible...according to these sheep...decided it was going to forgive the humans for offending him.

But before he'd be willing to do that....the people first had to torture and kill his son.

And they want to say that a miserable, disgusting act like that proves the god loves humans.

Is there no end to the silliness of this religion?

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Mesquite,

Let me ask you a question, when you were a child and you were being punished for breaking a rule, did you think the punishment was fair? How many times did you said, "I hate you!" to your parents when they punished you? Did you mean it? I would guess not. Did you thin that was all your parents were, mean and cruel? I would guess not.

It's not the part about you thinking God is murderous, vindictive, barbaric, or what have you that bothers me so. What bothers me is, just like when we were children being punished we did not see the error of our ways, we blamed the parents because they made the rules and we didn't like them. But, our parents had more than one side to them. And, I would venture to guess that you believed your parents loved your more than they didnt? They were more kind then harsh?

Now, how often did you believe your parents when they said, "I am not punishing you because I don't love you. I am punishing you because I DO love you?" Did you eventually come to understand this to be true?

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If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

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